New distribution map of Y-DNA haplogroup E-V13

[Angela]

J probably took place near the southern Levantine regions, G on the central Iranian plateau

J probably took place near the southern Levantine regions, G on the central Iranian plateau

Variance and phylogeny both indicate that y dna "J" originated in the northern near East, perhaps near the Taurus mountains. S

Even Wiki gets this one right. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267

See also, Chiaroni et al.2009
Chiaroni 2009 proposed that J-P58 (that they refer to as J1e) might have first dispersed during the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B period, "from a geographical zone, including northeast Syria, northern Iraq and eastern Turkey...)

Some clades, agriculturalists, remained, or moved with the Neolithic expansions into Europe, but the herders would have moved south and into more arid areas generally.

The specific clade in Arabia is younger and massively expanded after a founder effect.

Of course, there were then further migrations back north with the Islamic expansions.

See also, Chiaroni et al 2010, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987219/

or even the genetics page here at Eupedia.

 

[MOESAN]

Variance and phylogeny both indicate that y dna "J" originated in the northern near East, perhaps near the Taurus mountains. S

Even Wiki gets this one right. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267

See also, Chiaroni et al.2009
Chiaroni 2009 proposed that J-P58 (that they refer to as J1e) might have first dispersed during the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B period, "from a geographical zone, including northeast Syria, northern Iraq and eastern Turkey...)

Some clades, agriculturalists, remained, or moved with the Neolithic expansions into Europe, but the herders would have moved south and into more arid areas generally.

The specific clade in Arabia is younger and massively expanded after a founder effect.

Of course, there were then further migrations back north with the Islamic expansions.

See also, Chiaroni et al 2010, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987219/

or even the genetics page here at Eupedia.

thanks for interesting links
I' m OK for Y-J story, for I know now
concerning origin of HGs, every SNP is linked to its upstream SNP, and place of origin could say very little, what would count is the place of developpement of the carriers of the SNP and the duration of settlement in situ, in some way ...
sometimes (very often) a new population was born on the association of two (or more) SNPs ad HGs remote one from the other, but concurring by osmosis, selection,and life difficulties to a new population?

 

[Ike]

What difference does it make where it arose? Y dna "R" clades probably arose in Iran or Central Asia...the "N" clades arose in Siberia...the "G" clades somewhere in the northern near east, as is the case with the "J" clades. For all the claims about y dna "I", who knows if it split from "IJ" in Europe or somewhere nearby in Anatolia.

It makes a lot of difference. If we want to be precise we have to make distinction between the two. That's why we are here. When we are not formal, we can say that all people are brothers.

As for the "E" clades, it seems increasingly clear to me from all the more recent papers, that "E" split from "D" after the first Out of Africa, perhaps in Arabia or even a bit north of it, and then spread out along both sides of the Mediterranean from there, and that may all have happened in the late Mesolithic.

And, for that matter, I wouldn't be at all surprised if really old samples from Europe, actually Mesolithic, and not from Neolithic Hunter Gatherers who moved west very recently, came out carrying ydna "C". What will happen to all of these classifications about who is European then?

Or is it going to be based on the date of entrance into Europe? "E" and "C" might be first then, along with perhaps "I".

If we look at the starting point, we are all Africans, geographically. I was the first to ask Yaan what did he mean with "being European". Since being geographically European doesn't really have to have much meaning, it seems more interesting to classify subclades by their cultural influence?

You're all talking about a cultural concept, i.e. "Europe" that had no meaning in ancient times. These kinds of discussions are fruitless.

Of course it had meaning. It wasn't the Celts or Goths that built the pyramids. Hg E is more famous for their contributions in Africa than in Europe.

As for E-V13 in particular, it's clear that it is massively "European" in its distribution, and that some sub clade of it made it all the way into the western Mediterranean with the Neolithic. It's also clear from many papers that the extremely high Balkan frequencies stem from a founder effect and then a large expansion in relatively more recent times. As for where the mutation actually arose I don't know and I don't know whether it ever will be known, and, in my opinion, it's also irrelevant.

It is relevant. Relevant for us to make more detailed DNA tree, resolve historic events, movements of the people, map cultural dispersion, languages, etc.. Relevant for todays E-V13 carriers. I guess they'd be happy to know what their ancestors did throughout the history.

 

[adamo]

Well everyone knows J2 took place in northern Syria/ southern turkey

 

[adamo]

Iberia's spread of E3b frequencies is also interesting, with a 33% peak in northwestern Spain's Galicia region. Frequencies are about 15-20% across Portugal. There's another 27% peak in the southeast of Spain. As for hg J, it peaks in southern Spain/Portugal at only 15-18% of male lineages.

 

[Sile]

If we look at the starting point, we are all Africans, geographically. I was the first to ask Yaan what did he mean with "being European". Since being geographically European doesn't really have to have much meaning, it seems more interesting to classify subclades by their cultural influence?
.

according to genetic scholars, being classified as 100% "European" means, your ancestors where more than 2100 years in Europe.

what is Europe...today's boundaries ...to the Urals or

 

[LeBrok]

according to genetic scholars, being classified as 100% "European" means, your ancestors where more than 2100 years in Europe.

what is Europe...today's boundaries ...to the Urals or

Do they say that all the ancestors had to be European with no exceptions?

If you go back 2000 years potentially you could have few thousands of grandparents. What if one or two were from Asia or Africa? I wonder if there even is one European who didn't have ancestors from outside of Europe in last 2000 years.

 

[Sile]

Do they say that all the ancestors had to be European with no exceptions?

If you go back 2000 years potentially you could have few thousands of grandparents. What if one or two were from Asia or Africa? I wonder if there even is one European who didn't have ancestors from outside of Europe in last 2000 years.

Only Paternal and only one.

so this ONE ( as an example) could be in Europe 3000 years ago and then went to asia and will still be classified 100% European

 

[Fire Haired]

according to genetic scholars, being classified as 100% "European" means, your ancestors where more than 2100 years in Europe.

what is Europe...today's boundaries ...to the Urals or

There is a such thing as being European genetically. In globe13 the only group to originate in Europe is called North Euro and is very popular throughout Europe. Europeans are overall in skin, hair, and eye color are much paler than other Caucasins. I am not saying that palness originated in Europe (origin of Euro palness). The Soumi its debatable but I think their ancestors arrived in Scandinavia 9,000-11,000ybp there is a reason why they look no different from French or Germans or whoever its because their related how ever many 1,000's of years ago. You can uselly look at someone and tell if their European or not a reason why their called white people. From what I learned in Geography class Europe was created with borders at the Urals because of physical and cultural differences with people east of the Urals. Europe is apart of the same landmass as Asia there is not some huge line of fire in between the two. Just I don't understand why even though Anatolia is right next to Greece people in Greece group with everyone else in Europe why do the borders almost match up perfectly. I know Greeks have a much higher rate of mid eastern ancestry than other Europeans but I think that came in Greco Roman age. Basically what happened was Greece was settled by Europeans and later inter married with near easterns I think mainly with spread of farming, contact inbetween Neloithic-bronze agem and then Greco Roman age.

 

[Angela]

according to genetic scholars, being classified as 100% "European" means, your ancestors where more than 2100 years in Europe.

what is Europe...today's boundaries ...to the Urals or

How interesting...perhaps you could provide us with their names and where they teach...Oxford? Harvard? Stanford? And a citation for the publications where they have made such statements?

I see from a subsequent post that you think "Europeanness" is defined by someone's ydna. Where exactly does that leave women? Her father's?

Strange even for men that it's not autosomes at least. So, Chadic speaking people from West Africa who carry an R1b clade (V88) are Europeans? Oh, I forgot...there's that 2,100 year line. Once you cross it you're safe. So, an E-M81 man in France whose first y line ancestor to set foot in France was a Roman soldier in 200 B.C. is European, but another E-M81 man whose first y line ancestor to see foot in France arrived in 721 A.D.isn't European?

 

[Angela]

There is a such thing as being European genetically. In globe13 the only group to originate in Europe is called North Euro and is very popular throughout Europe. Europeans are overall in skin, hair, and eye color are much paler than other Caucasins. I am not saying that palness originated in Europe (origin of Euro palness). The Soumi its debatable but I think their ancestors arrived in Scandinavia 9,000-11,000ybp there is a reason why they look no different from French or Germans or whoever its because their related how ever many 1,000's of years ago. You can uselly look at someone and tell if their European or not a reason why their called white people. From what I learned in Geography class Europe was created with borders at the Urals because of physical and cultural differences with people east of the Urals. Europe is apart of the same landmass as Asia there is not some huge line of fire in between the two. Just I don't understand why even though Anatolia is right next to Greece people in Greece group with everyone else in Europe why do the borders almost match up perfectly. I know Greeks have a much higher rate of mid eastern ancestry than other Europeans but I think that came in Greco Roman age. Basically what happened was Greece was settled by Europeans and later inter married with near easterns I think mainly with spread of farming, contact inbetween Neloithic-bronze agem and then Greco Roman age.

You might want to read what actual genetic scholars propose for the genesis of Europeans.
See: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09/estimating-admixture-proportions-and.html
It begins with a nice easy graphic.

Actually, the northern European component of which you are so fond, actually contains quite a bit of Asian ancestry. You might also be interested in : http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/06/amerindian-like-admixture-in-northern.html

Or,you might find this informative: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/12/efficient-moment-based-inference-of.html
Graphics are good here too.

 

[Fire Haired]

That mongliod admixture in north Euro only counts for Finland and other Uralic speakers. I get sick of it when they generalize north Europe because technically southern Germans count as north European even though they are as far north as Serbians who they count as south Europeans.

 

[Sile]

How interesting...perhaps you could provide us with their names and where they teach...Oxford? Harvard? Stanford? And a citation for the publications where they have made such statements?

I see from a subsequent post that you think "Europeanness" is defined by someone's ydna. Where exactly does that leave women? Her father's?

Strange even for men that it's not autosomes at least. So, Chadic speaking people from West Africa who carry an R1b clade (V88) are Europeans? Oh, I forgot...there's that 2,100 year line. Once you cross it you're safe. So, an E-M81 man in France whose first y line ancestor to set foot in France was a Roman soldier in 200 B.C. is European, but another E-M81 man whose first y line ancestor to see foot in France arrived in 721 A.D.isn't European?

I referred to my individual AuDna tests , not the gedmatch, dodecad, eurogenes, etc etc as I care little for these as some sites "manipulate" data to get a test result that suits them.

I asked Doug, for my Paternal line and that's what he stated , I then asked for Maternal as I completed the FMS test after his test and he stated it did not alter anything


- since I am designated 100% European by yourself and I am from the T haplogroup does this 100% mean that for the entirety of the span of 2000 or 2500 years you cover, that my ancestors where in Europe at that time.?

Hard to say ... it's only one ancestor 2100 years ago that had to be T ... so he could be anywhere in Europe, noy necessarily in.

BTW, since the test with you I have had a FMS done via FtDna and also send my results to Genbank and they noted I am no longer a H2 person and will be given a brand new H subclade. Does this have any impact on the previous test you did.?

NO

Doug

So , I specifically asked for T,

EDIT: If these admixture tests from different sources are correct then they should all relatively match each other, but they do not , so clearly a case of what site you want to believe.

 

[LeBrok]

Only Paternal and only one.

so this ONE ( as an example) could be in Europe 3000 years ago and then went to asia and will still be classified 100% European

Oh, now I get it. Only 2% (YDNA) of your all DNA is 100% European. Don't' you think you should be more clear in your statements to avoid misunderstandings?

 

[LeBrok]

I referred to my individual AuDna tests , not the gedmatch, dodecad, eurogenes, etc etc as I care little for these as some sites "manipulate" data to get a test result that suits them.

I asked Doug, for my Paternal line and that's what he stated , I then asked for Maternal as I completed the FMS test after his test and he stated it did not alter anything


- since I am designated 100% European by yourself and I am from the T haplogroup does this 100% mean that for the entirety of the span of 2000 or 2500 years you cover, that my ancestors where in Europe at that time.?

Hard to say ... it's only one ancestor 2100 years ago that had to be T ... so he could be anywhere in Europe, noy necessarily in.

BTW, since the test with you I have had a FMS done via FtDna and also send my results to Genbank and they noted I am no longer a H2 person and will be given a brand new H subclade. Does this have any impact on the previous test you did.?

NO

Doug

So , I specifically asked for T,

EDIT: If these admixture tests from different sources are correct then they should all relatively match each other, but they do not , so clearly a case of what site you want to believe.

I'm sorry, you've referred to your individual AuDNA and you didn't care to mention it?!
Again, be more transparent in your posts. we have no idea what is your creation and what Doug actually said in this post. Keep in mind that we are not in your head and can't see clearly what you're thinking at the moment, without clear explanation.

 

[Sile]

Again, be more transparent in your posts. I have no idea what is your creation and what Doug actually said. Keep in mind that we are not in your head and can't see clearly what you're thinking, and what you mean, without clear explanation.

fix this server then, I can change whats written, I cannot add text between previously written script, I cannot edit, I get logged out in the middle of writing ( i have to try to save, then I cannot re-enter), i cannot save ( it just sits there for hours) and many ore issues

Lets see, I have only 1 shot....
.I am saying , the meaning of being European is based on one's personnel test with testers like Doug and and not based on admixture tests from gedmatch or similar

 

[Sile]

Oh, now I get it. Only 2% (YDNA) of your all DNA is 100% European. Don't' you think you should be more clear in your statements to avoid misunderstandings?

explain, whats 2%

 

[Sile]

Oh, now I get it. Only 2% (YDNA) of your all DNA is 100% European. Don't' you think you should be more clear in your statements to avoid misunderstandings?

I think I know what you are referring to.

lets clarify...
if an englishman went to america with the mayflower and his ancestors began in europe 2100 or more years ago, then he is 100% European...the thing about, what about being american is only for native american ( red-indians/eskimos) . I know many american people want to have some association with american and seem to seek historical intermixing with the natives. But this does not apply for BCA testing ( Doug).

If you want this "american" then stick to Gedmatch admixture tests, which change every 6 months because of new members.

for a 100% european , BCA will say someting like

51% tuscan and 49% french
37% spanish and 63% hungarian
etc

there will never be anything outside of a European nation mantioned

 

[kamani]

I'm not sure that Southern Europeans have ever been pale-white, it wouldn't make sense geographically, even considering all the climate changes.
Europe probably has always had different skin tones from pale-white to light-brown, so who knows how far back E-v13 goes in Europe.
Color is also deceptive, for example a pale-white englishman is 2-ce closer genetically to an olive-skin italian than to a pale-white russian.
Or, a pale-white englishman is roughly 98-times closer genetically to an olive-skin italian than to a pale-white chinese.
There is sheep, there is black sheep, and there is goats..

 

[MOESAN]

as a whole Galicia shows 22% according to the Maciamo' s compilation - maybe there is a peak in a smaller region of Galicia?
but it is important to separate different clades of Y-E1b1 - I ssupose the northwest african clade is the dominant one in Galicia as in other regions of iberia: north african neolithic or before??? in Italy, the E-M81 is light but seemingly heavier in North cnetral Italy than in South Italy - in Auvergne, according to what I red, a lot of Y-E1b1 would be of this M81 clade: not too recent I think -