I don't that there is a peak since there have been several studies on Galicia and all got similar results for E1b1b. Besides most of the Galician population is concentrated along the coast.
New distribution map of Y-DNA haplogroup E-V13
I don't that there is a peak since there have been several studies on Galicia and all got similar results for E1b1b. Besides most of the Galician population is concentrated along the coast.
Ike
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LoL, this looks like a flea market bargaining. We should probably make a pool: how much of something makes you something?
a) only Y-DNA
b) only Y-DNA plus more than 50 % autosomal
c) both Y-DNA and mDNA plus more than 50 % autosomal
d) at least 90 % autosomal, disregarding Y and mt
e) etc...
p.s. If, like in this case, we're wondering who/what is European, we would first have to define what makes a DNA segment (mt, Y or AS) European.
a) only Y-DNA
b) only Y-DNA plus more than 50 % autosomal
c) both Y-DNA and mDNA plus more than 50 % autosomal
d) at least 90 % autosomal, disregarding Y and mt
e) etc...
p.s. If, like in this case, we're wondering who/what is European, we would first have to define what makes a DNA segment (mt, Y or AS) European.
Angela
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Clearly, you didn't actually read the papers; if you had, you would realize that they are not just talking about Finland and other Uralic speaking peoples. They are, in fact, talking about all Europeans, although the percentages are much higher in northern Europeans.
Angela
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There is a vast difference between having an academic interest in population genetics and the peopling of Europe, or even an interest in the genetic formation of one's own country or one's own dna, and trying to use uniparental dna and autosomal dna to make sense of it all, on the one hand, and focusing on the location where certain mutations occurred or coalesced because one is trying to ensure that a certain uniparental marker is or is not "African" which, it seems to me, is a substratum to many discussions like this on "anthrofora", on the other hand.
My objection is to the latter.
I also fail to understand why a uniparental marker which accounts for perhaps 2% of one's dna should form the basis for one's "pride" or lack of it in the accomplishments of ancient civilizations. (Not to mention that I am far more focused on my own accomplishments.) There are, without a doubt, ancestors in my family tree who bore many different uniparental markers. I really don't have any emotional attachment to my own particular mt dna or my father's y dna marker. But, to each their own.
(I have no idea as to your own motivations, or lack of them of course. I am speaking in generalities.)
Ike
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It seems you're alluding on those 'racial supremacy' people, but that is not the case. I just want to get facts straight.
Everyone has it's own cultural legacy. The pride is his, but there is also a responsibility and obligation towards it.
p.s. And claim not what is not yours, or thou shall drink vinegar for all eternity.
Everyone has it's own cultural legacy. The pride is his, but there is also a responsibility and obligation towards it.
p.s. And claim not what is not yours, or thou shall drink vinegar for all eternity.
Drac II
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Some authors have tried to use this Y-DNA marker for supposedly measuring North African influence in Europe during historical times (the Islamic incursions into Europe during the Middle Ages), but as you can see from the distribution in Spain, France and Italy, it does not corroborate this at all. It actually suggests the opposite: it has little to do with any of these historical events. If it was due to Islamic incursions it should be highest in Andalucia, Extremadura, Sicily, Calabria, Puglia, etc. Yet it is lower in all these places that endured the longest Islamic presence and higher in more northern places that hardly had any.
Sile
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There are basically 2 ways
1- to find an individual on where his/her line first commenced and (BCA test)
2- where one's admixture changes every 6 months based on new members joining. (Gedmatch type of tests)
There are also the "weird" system of getting/using only 5 testers for data for each ethnicity ( dodecad) and using these mimimum testers to claim most European results instead of continuing to gain more testers.
or
The PF ( Ftdna) system where they have a "centre of gravity" system where one is pinpointed to a map of Europe based on ethnic areas...example... for me ....62% Tuscan and 38% Occadian/french....so lets move 38% of the mileage distance from Tuscany towards Britain and mark it...that's the pinpointing.
or
The 23andme system of going back only 500 years
Angela
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Sile, are all these "ways" you describe ways to show or prove someone is European? I know something of your ancestry. Of course you're European...why would you doubt it? I really don't understand. I can trace most of my ancestors back to the middle of the 16th century, and some even further back...all Italian. I have no doubt that the the vast majority were in Italy for a thousand years, at least, before that. My ancestors tilled this land, built its great architectural wonders, engaged in its commerce, participated in and benefited from the Renaissance, which, in my opinion, defined what it means to be a member of western civilization. I'm Italian, and European. What else could I be?
EVERYONE in Europe has ancestors who arrived from somewhere else. EVERYONE. It just depends when they got here. I'm personally not interested in drawing a line in time and saying everyone whose ancestors got here before X date is European, and everyone who arrived later, is not.
For those who are, I would just say that generally human variation is clinal. You can't contain it within political boundaries, or even within geographical boundaries. As the whole series of articles by the Reich group at Harvard shows, the "European" populations were formed by an admixture of a North Eurasian group, with similarities to the ancestors of the Amerindians, and a west Eurasian group probably radiating out of the greater Near East somewhere, some of whom arrived in the Mesolithic, for example, some from the Neolithic, perhaps some from the Bronze Age. All Europeans show admixture from those two groups, albeit in different proportions, and forming some general clines within Europe. That's the way it is. It's not as neat for Europeans as it is for the Han, who form a more distinct pole, or the Yoruba, on the other hand, who form another pole.
As for the "ways" you listed, they are, of course, all flawed.
To base one's identity on one y line in your ancestry, which represents only 2% of your genes, seems rather silly to me, I must say. Just as an example, I carry mt dna U2e. The latest research I've seen said U2 arose in the Middle East after the Out of Africa migration. Much of it went to India, but some headed into Europe. The U2 at Kostenki is tens of thousands of years old. It has been found from Andronovo and other steppe cultures all the way to Basque country, and everywhere in between. So, which do I pick? Am I, for example, supposed to feel like a steppe dwelling pastoralist? I assure you that I don't.
The other option is autosomally testing for "admixture", at least admixture on the level where it can be done or accessed through such things as the Dodecad calculators. You seem to have some issues with it, but I think it's a much better option than chasing after one "Y" line to see when your particular mutation hit the shores of Europe.
I, like you, am no fan of the FTDNA analysis. I'm likewise not a fan of Dr. Mcdonald's program. He created both programs, you know, and although he has changed his own algorithm a bit, it is still the same general method.
Of the other calculators available, I personally have the most faith in those done by Dienekes, for the simple reason that the populations, except for his own "Dodecad" members, are all publicly available, and he published his methodology, so anyone can duplicate his analysis on their own, and ensure that it is honestly done, given of course that they have the computer skills that are necessary. (BTW, there are far more than 5 participants in most of those studies; there are many samples available for Tuscans for example. The proof that you don't need all that many samples to get pretty accurate results can be seen from the results for Ashkenazim, for example. You can compare the results based on the Behar samples, and the Dodecad volunteers, and the results are almost identical. Or, take me, for example, my ancestry comes almost entirely from the corridor which runs from Parma to La Spezia. My dodecad results are without exception almost exactly midway between the scores for Bergamo and Toscana. )
That's not to say that I think these tools can't be improved. That's precisely why new populations keep getting added; it's to make them more accurate. Also, this analysis only goes back so far, not as far as the admixture event(s) proposed by the Reich group for example. The clusters are also somewhat ambiguous, and change from run to run because they are experiments done to try to figure out the peopling of West Eurasia. They weren't done for the "consumers".
As for 23andme, I don't actually think it only goes back 500 years. I think that statement was put out there mainly to cover themselves because at this point it can't be proved exactly how far back it does reach, but that's a different discussion, and this is already way too long.
Angela
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Sile, are all these "ways" you describe ways to show or prove someone is European? I know something of your ancestry. Of course you're European...why would you doubt it? I really don't understand. I can trace most of my ancestors back to the middle of the 16th century, and some even further back...all Italian. I have no doubt that the the vast majority were in Italy for a thousand years, at least, before that. My ancestors tilled this land, built its great architectural wonders, engaged in its commerce, participated in and benefited from the Renaissance, which, in my opinion, defined what it means to be a member of western civilization. I'm Italian, and European. What else could I be?
EVERYONE in Europe has ancestors who arrived from somewhere else. EVERYONE. It just depends when they got here. I'm personally not interested in drawing a line in time and saying everyone whose ancestors got here before X date is European, and everyone who arrived later, is not.
For those who are, I would just say that generally human variation is clinal. You can't contain it within political boundaries, or even within geographical boundaries. As the whole series of articles by the Reich group at Harvard shows, the "European" populations were formed by an admixture of a North Eurasian group, with similarities to the ancestors of the Amerindians, and a west Eurasian group probably radiating out of the greater Near East somewhere, some of whom arrived in the Mesolithic, for example, some from the Neolithic, perhaps some from the Bronze Age. All Europeans show admixture from those two groups, albeit in different proportions, and forming some general clines within Europe. That's the way it is. It's not as neat for Europeans as it is for the Han, who form a more distinct pole, or the Yoruba, on the other hand, who form another pole.
As for the "ways" you listed, they are, of course, all flawed.
To base one's identity on one y line in your ancestry, which represents only 2% of your genes, seems rather silly to me, I must say. Just as an example, I carry mt dna U2e. The latest research I've seen said U2 arose in the Middle East after the Out of Africa migration. Much of it went to India, but some headed into Europe. The U2 at Kostenki is tens of thousands of years old. It has been found from Andronovo and other steppe cultures all the way to Basque country, and everywhere in between. So, which do I pick? Am I, for example, supposed to feel like a steppe dwelling pastoralist? I assure you that I don't.
The other option is autosomally testing for "admixture", at least admixture on the level where it can be done or accessed through such things as the Dodecad calculators. You seem to have some issues with it, but I think it's a much better option than chasing after one "Y" line to see when your particular mutation hit the shores of Europe.
I, like you, am no fan of the FTDNA analysis. I'm likewise not a fan of Dr. Mcdonald's program. He created both programs, you know, and although he has changed his own algorithm a bit, it is still the same general method.
Of the other calculators available, I personally have the most faith in those done by Dienekes, for the simple reason that the populations, except for his own "Dodecad" members, are all publicly available, and he published his methodology, so anyone can duplicate his analysis on their own, and ensure that it is honestly done, given of course that they have the computer skills that are necessary. (BTW, there are far more than 5 participants in most of those studies; there are many samples available for Tuscans for example. The proof that you don't need all that many samples to get pretty accurate results can be seen from the results for Ashkenazim, for example. You can compare the results based on the Behar samples, and the Dodecad volunteers, and the results are almost identical. Or, take me, for example, my ancestry comes almost entirely from the corridor which runs from Parma to La Spezia. My dodecad results are without exception almost exactly midway between the scores for Bergamo and Toscana. )
That's not to say that I think these tools can't be improved. That's precisely why new populations keep getting added; it's to make them more accurate. Also, this analysis only goes back so far, not as far as the admixture event(s) proposed by the Reich group for example. The clusters are also somewhat ambiguous, and change from run to run because they are experiments done to try to figure out the peopling of West Eurasia. They weren't done for the "consumers".
As for 23andme, I don't actually think it only goes back 500 years. I think that statement was put out there mainly to cover themselves because at this point it can't be proved exactly how far back it does reach, but that's a different discussion, and this is already way too long.
Sile
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I was trying to make the point that you cannot show you are 100% european via gedmatch type of tests.
I know I am 100% european, I have no concerns on this, I am more interested to find the beginning of my line. Nationality does not interest me in genetics. I was told my line was only 3250 years old.
What do you know about my Personnel ancestry??
I can trace mine for 300 years plus via birth, death registers and am only missing from 1600 to 1700 . If I find these then I can continue to 1180
You can find some ancestry via registries here
http://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.it/v/Archivio+di+Stato+di+Treviso/Stato+civile+napoleonico/
or other italian areas from this site
I was sent this as part of my line, if I connect I can go back to 1180
http://www.coroparrocchialetassullo.it/dermulo_file/dermulostory/Genealogia/PretH.htm
What is this 2% thing you bring up?
You clearly know more than I about admixtures , so check this site and the 3 maps
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/more-on-east-baltic-as-refuge-for.html
As for 23andme, I don't actually think it only goes back 500 years. I think that statement was put out there mainly to cover themselves because at this point it can't be proved exactly how far back it does reach, but that's a different discussion, and this is already way too long.
Well ,I read only 500 years, if you say its different then so be it.
They still mark me as 100% european
Angela
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I think perhaps we have been misunderstanding one another. I mentioned your ancestry only because you had posted previously here on this site that like me you had taken the time to do some genealogy and knew that your ancestry was deep rooted in Italy, and so, obviously, European for centuries. No offense was meant, I assure you.
I did take a look at the Eurogenes commentary about the latest Skoglund paper, but as it isn't about y dna E, I've taken the liberty of posting my thoughts about it, for whatever they're worth, in the autosomal thread where you were posting.
Alan
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After E-M81, here is the map of the E-V13 subclade. The distribution of the two haplogroups don't match at all, except in Iberia. E-V13 is clearly linked to the Thessalian Neolithic and its offshoots, such as the Linear Pottery (LBK) culture. It was also part of the Cardium Pottery Culture, as attested by the 7000-year-old E-V13 sample from Catalonia, which belonged to that culture.
Click to enlarge
E-V13 also seems to have spread the Neolithic to the Caucasus, Mesopotamia and Iran, but could have bypassed Syria, where it isn't found, except in Assyria and Kurdistan.
The Kurds have the highest percentage of E-V13 in the Middle East. They also have have high percentages of I2a1b and R1a, which makes me think that they could be descended from the Thracians or a relative tribe from the region of Romania or Bulgaria. Or at least it would mean that a Thracian-related tribe settled in what is now Kurdistan, probably long before the actual Kurds arrived.
Or maybe descend of Cimmerians beside Medes ancestry? Since as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. Cimmerians appeared like an Iranian group which showed strong connections to Thracians. Almost like the bridge between Iranians and Thracians.
Also interestingly according to a study on Eurasian cultures. The Kurds, Bulgarians and Russian appear close.
Cultural Distance Calculator Part 3
Today, I want to present network clusters for cultures to compare them with each other.
It is interesting to note that...
1. Folk music traditions are more determined by the maternal lineages (correlation with mtDNA-haplogroups),
2. "Mother" languages are more determined by the paternal lineages (correlation with Y-Chromosome-haplogroups).
3. Apparently folk stories traditions are more determined by the paternal lineages as well.
4. The resulting culture is a mix of these traditions (+ religious believes + the history).
1. Network based on Folk music traditions (Pamjav et al.): http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00438-012-0683-y
http://kurdishdna.blogspot.de/2013/02/cultural-distance-calculator-part-3.html
Or maybe it's just a more ancient connection between Kurdistan (West Asia) and the Balkans.
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Alan
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No the huge and blank central area is Sunni, the West coast is mostly Alawi and the South is Druze with Sunni, Alawi and Christian minority, the North/Northeast all the way to the Jabal al akrad (Kurds mountain) in the Northwestern coast corner is also Kurdish populated territory but they might have not tested the people there yet or Maciamo thought it's not Kurdish populated area, so he made it blank.
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Alan
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I know of at least three Kurds who belong to R-z283. I assume the majority of R1a* among Kurds is Z93 but there seems to be z283 too.
Angela
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I was interested in the central area because it almost looks like there might have been a migration wave, perhaps from the south, that might have diluted E-V13 frequencies. Are there historical or pre-historic migration waves that might explain that?
As you say, it might also just mean that this area was not tested.
The map initially brought to mind the fact that some researchers have postulated the birth of some of these down stream E clades like E-V13 and E-123 in the greater Near East.
This is a map of pre-Neolithic sedentary sites in the northern Fertile Crescent.
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/maplev1.png
This is one that shows the first domestication of animals:
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/wade_graphic_600.jpg
And this one is for the first domestication of grains:
http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/zy4f354bc5.jpg
Do these fall within that area of higher frequency?
And how would this correlate with the proposed age for E-V13 generally?
MOESAN
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Or maybe descend of Cimmerians beside Medes ancestry? Since as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. Cimmerians appeared like an Iranian group which showed strong connections to Thracians. Almost like the bridge between Iranians and Thracians.
Also interestingly according to a study on Eurasian cultures. The Kurds, Bulgarians and Russian appear close.
Cultural Distance Calculator Part 3
Today, I want to present network clusters for cultures to compare them with each other.
It is interesting to note that...
1. Folk music traditions are more determined by the maternal lineages (correlation with mtDNA-haplogroups),
2. "Mother" languages are more determined by the paternal lineages (correlation with Y-Chromosome-haplogroups).
3. Apparently folk stories traditions are more determined by the paternal lineages as well.
4. The resulting culture is a mix of these traditions (+ religious believes + the history).
1. Network based on Folk music traditions (Pamjav et al.): http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00438-012-0683-y
http://kurdishdna.blogspot.de/2013/02/cultural-distance-calculator-part-3.html
Or maybe it's just a more ancient connection between Kurdistan (West Asia) and the Balkans.
Cimmerians? concerning current Kurdistan? I don't know... but it is not stupid at first sight
concerning Europe as a whole, I suppose as Maciamo that the first provider of it was the neolithical wave of agriculturors breeders: the map fits very well with this hypothesis - in some parts, we see it is a bit lighter in regions where Y-G2a is very strong: more cardial origin for these last ones? I think in Tyrol, Switzerland, Corsica, Sardinia, Portugal - difficult to be sure upon small regional samples:
my bet: cardial: very more G2a than E1b-V13 - danubian and LBK: equilibrated enough for G2a and E1b-V13
after : plus some early I-Ean later moves (with more J2, and more central Balkans E1b-V13, all envolved after crossings, and in S-Italy, later Greeks moves - Spain: post-neolithic moves too, with Helladic people, close geographically (and culturally?) to Greeks; helladic is geographic, it could cover proto-Hellenes, pre-Anatolians, I-E Anatolians... and Romans could have taken part also, at low levels, lately
good brain storm all of us; I'm going to have tea, before something else tonight, more doping!
Ike
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It good to note that some Balkan Roma populations are E-V13.
That is interesting because of old European belief that Gypsies are from Egypt.
http://www.poreklo.rs/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/2010-AMERICAN-JOURNAL-OF-PHYSICAL-ANTHROPOLOGY.pdf
That is interesting because of old European belief that Gypsies are from Egypt.
http://www.poreklo.rs/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/2010-AMERICAN-JOURNAL-OF-PHYSICAL-ANTHROPOLOGY.pdf
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Gypsies are not big in E-V13, some have it due to drift. Bulgarians, Serbs,Macedonians and Albanians slept with Gypsy women and majority of the children 99+ were raised as Gypsies. E-V13 has nothing to do with Egypt itself, its father M78 has. Gypsies are mostly H1a the second biggest being I1(a mystery who have sex with them to give it to them, maybe Hungarians and Austrians),I2a, J2a4b and E-V13. Just like between 0.5-2% of the Eastern European have Gypsy H, just like 30-40% of the Gypsies have European I1,I2a and E-V13
Also majority of Gypsies in the Balkan come from Central and West Europe, because they were used as slaves there and the Ottomans treated them better. They are from India, then they went to Iran, then some went to Egypt yes.