Politics Should Europeans get involved in Libya?

[Brady]

If the europeans need oil...I have to say...YES.

 

[Anton Bear's den]

Hold your horses brother. I thought Mubarak was a friend of US?
Anyway just busting your b.... I'm glad he went without a fight, and I favor democracy over dictatorships too. I'm just afraid there could be another dictator or one party dictatorship marching right ofter. If these countries are still messy few years later, there'll be another dictator "restoring" a peace. I wish I'm wrong but I've seen it so many times in the past.

Here is a very uplifting program form BBC, the Doha Debates about Egypt.
http://www.thedohadebates.com/#
So many young educated smart people, especially women. I hope they will get upper hand as elite in Egypt.

Yes, he needs to go. He kills his own people and has secret police that makes people dissapear, he violently supresses his own people, I'm glad Canada interviened. We need less dictators in the world not more.

If we don't help the arabs with their revolutions who will? they are mostly unarmed civilians. If the USA didn't have so much power in Egypt Mubarak wouldn't have left. Tunisia is a small country so the people were able to rise up, and being the first arab country the leadership was caught by surprise. Lybia is a different story with a monster on top, he won't hold back to keep his place in power.

The reason I think no one gets involved with the gulf countries revolution is because that will drag Iran into it and that war will happen much later. If all of North africa can get rid off all their dictators that is a very good start that will spread into the middle east.

I don't know why people are saying they went in for oil. If it really was about oil they would have done the opposite! They are already getting Lybias oil they don't want unrest that will only cause disturbances. Helping the rebels was the right thing to do.

That's why I love Canadians! Simply unquenchable thirst for democracy! That's what we need more than anything right now. I am sure that Canadians will not refuse help to war-refugees because of last forced democratization in Lybia. These victims of bloody undemocratic totalitarian regime of Gaddafi must find new place to live in! Unfortunately, Italian & Maltese comrades are already a little bit fed up with it...
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Many already have found refuge in Europe
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But Canada is so big and democratic dream country, there must be place for these innocent tolerant freedom-loving people too! They are so amazingly talented:
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and brave
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That will be real help in democratization of Lybia

 

[Mzungu mchagga]

I honestly don't know, but consider there's two possibilities to consider.

The first, as you said, is sympathy in elections. The German government attempted to imitate what Schröder did 2002, and that is use anti-war sentiment for an election campaign. The problem with this is that Libya simply isn't Iraq (the Libyans called for aid, the UNSC approved the action etc., whereas the Iraq War was essentially a solo action of the US without any legal basis). If this scenario is true, the German government blatantly overlooked some very obvious differences (notably, the sympathies for the rebel cause, which were amplified by Gaddafi's statements) - and why they did so utterly eludes me.

Which brings me to the second possibility: the German government decided that the rebels in Libya were a lost cause to begin with, and decided it was far more useful to make a low profile now, and then return to business as usual with the Gaddafi regime once the rebellion in Libya was crushed, something that would be impossible for all other Western nations if this scenario happened due to their support of the rebellion.

I agree! Without having a direct proof, I think it is elections only. With all the other countries taking part, it would be too unrealistic to think of a lost cause.

 

[Antigone]

Unfortunately, Italian & Maltese comrades are already a little bit fed up with it...

So is Greece, plus the refugees from Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan over the last few years. Greece is having a very difficult time coping with them all at the moment, especially now. Possibly the countries that create these messes should pay for the clean-up bill as well?

 

[Riccardo]

Anyhow they should have done a peacekeeping operation under a supranational force...That was the best way to act, as it was necessary arrived at that point with Ghadafi bombing the people. =(

 

[Anton Bear's den]

So is Greece, plus the refugees from Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan over the last few years. Greece is having a very difficult time coping with them all at the moment, especially now. Possibly the countries that create these messes should pay for the clean-up bill as well?

hahaha yeah, invaders must pay for their actions from own pocket. I know that some Iraqi refugees were taken by European countries and in one of these countries (Sweden) several Iraqis blew up themselves not so long ago for Allah (or who knows), that looks like European countries paying for mistakes of George W. Bush.

Regardless from how Gaddafi and other dictators bad or not, need pragmatically to think by own head. Libya is too close for Europe geographically for policy in Texas cowboy style. Bombardment has already increased the flow of refugees to Europe (only on Malta it's + 1000 refugees per day), created a problem with Gaddafi (looks like that guy will fight up to the death lol), external intervention unites people even around "bad leaders", intervention increased instability in North Africa on Europe's doorstep, no one knows what to do now and how this porridge will end + Europe have a lot of muslims inside, that "small war" will probably lead to increasing of the terrorist threat in Europe.

As for "bad dictator which killing own people", look at Sunni Saudi Arabian Peninsula, all countries there are dictatorships. The difference is only that they are in "alliance" with the "West" (selling oil and a tool against Shiite Iran). But these Arab oil monarchies have nothing common with "democracy" at all.

 

[Elias2]

Anton it seems like what you're most against is the illegal immigration. Let me put two senarios to you.

First senario, which you seem to like. Dictators stay in power forever, all rebelions are crushed because they have no support and people see no future in their country so they immigrate illegaly to europe.

Second senario. When the rebels rise up you support them and help the people instill a viable democracy. There will be immigration at the start but when they see optimism in their countries future they stay to make it better.

Both ways there will be immigration but the second there will be alot less in the long run. The problem in europe is made worse by the inactivity of the EU governments to do anything about it. Force deportations for illegals is a solution I don't see being taken seriously.

And again with the gulf countries. Any intervention there will drag Iran into it and that war will come later.

 

[Anton Bear's den]

Elias2
No need to represent the world in white and black colours.

First senario, which you seem to like. Dictators stay in power forever, all rebelions are crushed because they have no support and people see no future in their country so they immigrate illegaly to europe.

No need to support a dictator. But the direct military intervention is a mistake. If USA, Britain & France so much care about Libyan guerrillas and their prospects then just send them weapons, without direct interference. Even if Qaddafi wins then he will be scared and will undertake some reforms in sake of own safety/stability.

Second senario. When the rebels rise up you support them and help the people instill a viable democracy. There will be immigration at the start but when they see optimism in their countries future they stay to make it better.

LMAO that's a fairytale. Did you see these "democratic rebels" on the TV??? They look like bunch of terrorists with ak47's shooting in the air lol
What about democracy in Iraq? Do you know that USA & Britain killed more people than Saddam Hussein almost in 2 times? Do you know that in Iraq right now puppet regime that goes the same way that Saddam with 60% unemployment rate and daily terrorist attacks?
Afghanistan is democracy? No, for 10 years results are zero. NATO control 10% territory of Afghanistan and these Afghan security forces which must replace NATO forces in the long term are totally unfit for action. Production of drugs increased in 40 times according to UN after NATO intervention. A lot of them goes to Russia and even in bigger numbers to Europe.

Yes I am against illegal immigration

 

[edao]

One thing about all this that seems to be unclear is what exactly is going on in Libya. I have heard people refer to the situation as civil war and others describe it as a regime attacking its own people. They are two very different things.

If this is indeed a civil war then that makes UN intervention very dubious as we are taking sides in a civil conflict.

If it is just Gaddafi and his small support attacking the people brave enough to stand up against him then perhaps it can be justified.

If there are a significant number of Libians still supporting Gaddafi then the west has got itself into a very difficult situation. Gaddafi is no stranger to propaganda.

The UN resolution has nothing to do with a democratic outcome Gaddafi's dictatorship has nothing to do with the action taken. Its only about stopping a regime killing its own people, but if that regime is one side of a civil war its not that simple.

We have also seem other regimes in the middle east kill its own people most of them have a pretty good record, it never warranted a UN resolution in the past.

 

[how yes no 2]

Europeans should stay out of civil war in Libya...

 

[Elias2]

Elias2
No need to represent the world in white and black colours.


No need to support a dictator. But the direct military intervention is a mistake. If USA, Britain & France so much care about Libyan guerrillas and their prospects then just send them weapons, without direct interference. Even if Qaddafi wins then he will be scared and will undertake some reforms in sake of own safety/stability.


LMAO that's a fairytale. Did you see these "democratic rebels" on the TV??? They look like bunch of terrorists with ak47's shooting in the air lol
What about democracy in Iraq? Do you know that USA & Britain killed more people than Saddam Hussein almost in 2 times? Do you know that in Iraq right now puppet regime that goes the same way that Saddam with 60% unemployment rate and daily terrorist attacks?
Afghanistan is democracy? No, for 10 years results are zero. NATO control 10% territory of Afghanistan and these Afghan security forces which must replace NATO forces in the long term are totally unfit for action. Production of drugs increased in 40 times according to UN after NATO intervention. A lot of them goes to Russia and even in bigger numbers to Europe.

Yes I am against illegal immigration

I'm against illegal immigration as well, and I'm not looking at the world in black and white.

Iraq is a democracy now, and if you look at who was doing the killing during the iraq conflict it was the sunni and shias killing each other and the kurds fighting for independance against the first two. This is old islamic civil war I don't think america did their homework about.

Afghanistan is not a democracy because of pakistan and Iran supporting the terrorists.

Just giving the rebels weapons won't work because they lack organization against a mercenary army, they have no air force or tanks either. Ashton, if we didn't intervien these rebels would have been killed or "dissapeared" no doubt, and when then is kadafi suppose to be taken from power after that?

I guess you are going to be against the upcomming conflict with Iran over their nuclear project aswell if you don't like this one.

 

[how yes no 2]

I am not surprised that in stereotyped media representation of a conflict, a side in conflict is represented as "civilians" - as that happened before ( e.g. look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_scokGJga8c )
but I find it hard to cope with use of term civilians for a rebel army that has or had a fighter jet....

 

[Anton Bear's den]

Iraq is a democracy now.

I know one thing, I don't want such Iraqi version of "democracy" here in Russia.

and if you look at who was doing the killing during the iraq conflict it was the sunni and shias killing each other and the kurds fighting for independance against the first two. This is old islamic civil war I don't think america did their homework about.

No one cares about details, like it or not, but there died damned enormous number of people and the results of "democratization" (if we speak softly) are "questionable".

Afghanistan is not a democracy because of pakistan and Iran supporting the terrorists.

Afghanistan is the graveyard of empires, it's a mountain shithole/quagmire with islamic barbarians inside. Their "capital" Kabul don't control anything and "nation's economy" is drug laboratories. You'll never win there by military force regardless of who helps to Taliban. Soviets lost and NATO will fail soon too, the gradual withdrawal of troops has already been assigned.

Just giving the rebels weapons won't work because they lack organization against a mercenary army, they have no air force or tanks either.

They have air force and tanks too, I watched it in TV news. They even have multiple launch rocket systems "Град / shower of hail". The question only in which numbers... Funny, but right now in Russia last 2 thousands of ancient T-55 and T-62 tanks from Soviet warehouses going to cancellation, for operating them the training in general is not necessary lol can sell with big discount for "democratic rebels"

I guess you are going to be against the upcomming conflict with Iran over their nuclear project aswell if you don't like this one.

That's right and I begin to understand why Iran wants a nuclear bomb Iran don't want to go through forced arse democratization .
If seriously, I personally don't think that Iran is a threat for Europe, Russia, USA or Canada. There is primitive theocracy regime and some disturbing screams to Israel, but don't think that they are completely crazy. Iran has a lot of unhappy people inside, the fall of theocratic regime just matter of time. No need to attack anybody.

 

[Elias2]

I care about details, you should too, or else it is you who looks at things in black and white.

Iran with a nuke is not good, they already ship arms to terrorist organizations as it is, we don't needs another nuclear terrorist group, we already have one (pakistan).

And the Libyan rebels don't have any sort of tanks or airforce, they can bearly shoot their weapons they scavenge, but I guess they should all die because they don't want to live in a dictatorship anymore and have the courage to stand up to a 40 year tyrant. We should sit back and watch with popcorn in our hands.

This isn't a "forced" democratization either, this is a grass roots movement.

 

[Anton Bear's den]

I care about details, you should too.

Blind justification of military invasions with many victims and unpleasant consequences is not show of concern about details. Here is pretty simple, in Iraq was a stable dictatorship, yes brutal, yes with the suppression of freedoms, yes with "bad guy" at power. But Saddam Hussein was a product of the Iraqi society, its traditions, religion, level of development, etc. It is impossible to make someone happy by force, especially if under good intentions are hiding hypocrisy and banal searching of benefits.
Everything will just back into starting point. New "democratic government" of Iraq already cheated in the elections at last time which caused riots and it will again. Crusade of democratizators turned it in worse situation. Anyway, majority of Iraqis will not say "thanks" to you, there even dangerous to walk in the streets without protection.
Afghanistan the same, Hamid Karzai (president formally) is corrupted and cheating in the elections, he have nickname among own people "President of Kabul" (president of one city lol).

or else it is you who looks at things in black and white.

No, I am not divide the world into "good" and "bad" guys/countries/regimes like you do. All this pursuit of democracy reminds me about crusaders and people which call for intervention looks like Roman Catholic priests 800 years ago. There also was total hypocrisy from start and up to finish. You know, during the fourth crusade the "knights of god" violated a deal with the Byzantine Empire and attacked Christian Constantinople (because of gold in the city, not high ideals or something). Here is the same.
It's easy to rant from Canada because your country on the other end of the globe, but Libya, Iran, etc. not so far from Russia, Europe. You can invade any country if will take care about all problems by yourself. I bet Italians be glad to transport all new arrived African refugees to Canada/USA. They will do it for for free, just call them

Iran with a nuke is not good, they already ship arms to terrorist organizations as it is, we don't needs another nuclear terrorist group, we already have one (pakistan).

That's right, where the hell were USA, NATO, Canada and other today's anti-Iran loudmouths when other - uneducated, extremely religious and unstable country called "Pakistan", developed nukes???

And the Libyan rebels don't have any sort of tanks or airforce, they can bearly shoot their weapons they scavenge, but I guess they should all die because they don't want to live in a dictatorship anymore and have the courage to stand up to a 40 year tyrant. We should sit back and watch with popcorn in our hands.

LMAO You reading thoughts in my head

this is a grass roots movement.

I would not be so sure about this. More looks like many Libyans supports Gaddafi, minority against. Otherwise, he already would be kicked out.

 

[Aconform]

I’m for supporting the movement that some of the Libyan people have started to remove the dictator.

We have played a role in helping to keep him there. The sale of weapons was only just stopped to him. In dealing with him we have in a way supported him. So in an indirect way we have supported the oppression of the people.

If we don’t help them now they would have good reason to hate the western countries.

At lest this way we can make it up to them and plant the seeds of good relation with them in the future.

 

[Anton Bear's den]

I’m for supporting the movement that some of the Libyan people have started to remove the dictator.

We have played a role in helping to keep him there. The sale of weapons was only just stopped to him. In dealing with him we have in a way supported him. So in an indirect way we have supported the oppression of the people.

If we don’t help them now they would have good reason to hate the western countries.

At lest this way we can make it up to them and plant the seeds of good relation with them in the future.

Always nice to hear different opinions, comrade :grin:

But I bet now already 2 Canadians hate me

 

[Elias2]

Anton, you would have a different opinion if you were a kurd living in sadams Iraq. Or a lybian taken to the secret polices jail never to see your family again, or the palestinian boy who was jailed for life because he bloged about the constraints of islam. Or the women in Iran who will be killed because a man raped her. Or the armenian journalist who was shot and killed in istanbul for writing about the armenian genocide.

You can`t seem to picture yourself in other peoples shoes. I don`t hate you I just think you are ignorant.

 

[LeBrok]

Good points Elias, thanks.

 

[Antigone]

You can`t seem to picture yourself in other peoples shoes. I don`t hate you I just think you are ignorant.

Wow, thats a bit strong. I'd say we are all ignorant here, as in the comfort and security of our western life none of us can possibly know or fully imagine what it is to live in Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Armenia, Libya nor what it is to be in any of the situations you describe. All we can know is what any media chooses to tell us, which is at best, not the complete picture or at worst, inaccurate and form our opinions accordingly.