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Politics Should Europeans get involved in Libya?

I read alot of complaining but not alot of possible answers to the problems, nor do I remember you (antigone) suggesting anthing either than the rebels should die in lybia to stop illegal immigration :good_job:

The Greek government (any european government) can complain all day but that won't stop people from comming. Greece can build a wall on the boarder with turkey but people will still find a way over. Unless there are obvious consenquences for comming illegally, or harsh deportation laws, people will still come looking for free money.

Please share me one Idea you have antigone to stop illegal immigration.

Well you haven't had an idea simply because I have yet to give a personal opinion on illegal immigration. Merely attempted explanations of the situation here and why and how "policies" are not working, no matter how harsh they become. What I think is that the problem cannot be solved in Europe, with European policies alone because as I've said repeatedly, policies are ignorned and people keep coming. There has to be effort and co-operation at solving the problem at the source in conjunction with efforts at the destination. Treating the end result of a problem is futile because it does not solve the problem itself.

Now to suggest that I have said people should die in Libya is just plain silly. What I have said is that since the bombing has begun the illegal immigrant situation from Libya has become much worse, before the bombing it was a trickle and since the bombing it has become a flood. So, far from helping the people of Libya or anyone else concerned, the bombing only seems to have made the situation worse for the people of Libya and the people in southern Europe who have to deal with the refugees.
 
about the lybia war, i agree with chavez and cristina kirchener the other day in argentina (in black):

------------------------------------------

TRIPOLI – Loud blasts rocked the Libyan capital Tripoli for the 11th night in a row on Tuesday as world powers vowed to press efforts to stop Moamer Kadhafi's "murderous attacks" on civilians but stopped short of proposals to send him into exile.
France is prepared to hold discussions over supplying military aid to Libyan rebels fighting Kadhafi's forces, Foreign Minister Alain Juppe said, while US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said that although UN sanctions prohibit the delivery of arms to the country, that ban no longer applies.
At an international conference on Libya in London, Clinton said: "It is our interpretation that (UN Security Council resolution) 1973 amended or overrode the absolute prohibition on arms to anyone in Libya, so that there could be a legitimate transfer of arms if a country should choose to do that."
Two loud explosions rocked the Libyan capital Tripoli on Tuesday evening close to Kadhafi's tightly guarded residence and military targets in the suburb of Tajura were also hit, an AFP correspondent reported.
The first explosion was heard around 1630 GMT, followed by a second some three minutes later in the Bab Al-Azizya district, and ambulance sirens were heard shortly afterwards.
At around the same time, seven other explosions were reported in the suburb of Tajura, site of several military camps and an almost-nightly target of the air raids.
A resident said planes were seen firing five missiles at a military radar installation and another reported seeing flames and a column of smoke from the site.
Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini told AFP that participants in the London conference of more than 40 countries and organisations, including the United Nations and NATO, had unanimously agreed that Kadhafi should leave the country.
The final statement from the talks made no mention of any possible exile, but Frattini said: "A consensus has been reached, participants at the meeting unanimously said that Kadhafi must leave the country.
"Beyond that, it depends on the country which may offer to welcome Kadhafi. There is as yet no formal proposal, no country has formulated such a plan, even the African countries which may be ready to make one."
British Foreign Minister William Hague, who chaired the conference, said the delegates "agreed that Kadhafi and his regime have completely lost legitimacy."
US military strikes on Libya have cost $550 million so far, the Pentagon said, adding that the tab was likely to increase another $40 million in the next few weeks.
Between March 19 and 28, the Defence Department spent more than 60 percent of the funds on munitions, such as missiles and bombs, with the rest going toward deploying troops and covering the costs of combat, including additional fuel needed for US aircraft and ships.
In London, Clinton and British Prime Minister David Cameron said that allied air strikes would go on until the Libyan leader met UN demands for a ceasefire.
The strongman's forces had earlier checked the westward progress of anti-regime rebels towards his hometown of Sirte, an advance which began when Britain, France and the United States started air strikes on March 19.
On Tuesday, the rebels retreated 40 kilometres (25 miles) from their frontline positions to Nofilia, 100 kilometres from Sirte, which is the next big target in their efforts to oust Kadhafi as they head west towards Tripoli.
His forces unleashed barrages of artillery fire, triggering a stampede of rebel fighters, many fleeing aboard their pickup trucks.
The London conference, which included representatives from seven Arab states plus the heads of the United Nations and NATO, was intended to map out a future for Libya following the conflict.
In his opening remarks, Cameron said the air strikes were helping to protect civilians from "murderous attacks" by Kadhafi's forces on civilians in the western rebel-held town of Misrata and said Kadhafi remained in "flagrant breach" of UN demands for a ceasefire.
"Kadhafi is using snipers to shoot them down and let them bleed to death in the street."
Tanks and troops loyal to Kadhafi swept through Misrata on Tuesday, firing shells as they attacked Libya's third city, 214 kilometres (132 miles) east of Tripoli, a rebel spokesman said. He warned of a "massacre" ahead.
A doctor in the city said 142 people had been killed and 1,400 were wounded since March 18. Rebels said a hospital ship was expected to dock Tuesday in Misrata.
Clinton told the conference that military action would continue "until Kadhafi fully complies with the terms of (UN resolution) 1973, ceases his attacks on civilians, pulls his troops back from places they have forcibly entered, and allows key services and humanitarian assistance to reach all Libyans".
But Argentina's President Cristina Kirchner denounced the bombings by a coalition of "so-called civilised" Western nations.
"When you consider that these so-called civilised countries are trying to solve problems by dropping bombs, it makes me proud to be South American," the Argentine leader told reporters during a visit by Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.
"In economic terms, we've been labelled underdeveloped, second-tier countries," she said.
"But those of us from so-called uncivilised countries have succeeded to resolve our conflicts in a civilised way, through international law."

Participants agreed to set up a contact group to lead the international efforts to map out Libya's future, with the first meeting to take place in Qatar.
Ahead of the talks, Kadhafi issued a defiant letter likening the NATO-led strikes targeting his artillery and ground forces to military campaigns launched by Adolf Hitler during World War II.
"Stop your barbaric, unjust offensive on Libya," he said in the letter.
"Leave Libya for the Libyans. You are committing genocide against a peaceful people and a developing nation," he said.

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/global-f...-air-attacks-libya-world-powers-keep-pressure
 
Reinhart I wouldn't trust sources on the internet too much, especially when it demonizes israel.
 
Well you haven't had an idea simply because I have yet to give a personal opinion on illegal immigration. Merely attempted explanations of the situation here and why and how "policies" are not working, no matter how harsh they become. What I think is that the problem cannot be solved in Europe, with European policies alone because as I've said repeatedly, policies are ignorned and people keep coming. There has to be effort and co-operation at solving the problem at the source in conjunction with efforts at the destination. Treating the end result of a problem is futile because it does not solve the problem itself.

Now to suggest that I have said people should die in Libya is just plain silly. What I have said is that since the bombing has begun the illegal immigrant situation from Libya has become much worse, before the bombing it was a trickle and since the bombing it has become a flood. So, far from helping the people of Libya or anyone else concerned, the bombing only seems to have made the situation worse for the people of Libya and the people in southern Europe who have to deal with the refugees.

So your solution is?
 
Reinhart I wouldn't trust sources on the internet too much, especially when it demonizes israel.

Haha.. Are the Israeli's Saints?
Don't make me laugh.
 
Yes, to prevent a mass slaughter of innocent people.
 
Read it again, it is an improvement on your "policies" or your super solution of "harsh policies".

I read it again and it seems like you think I don't know about the situation with illegals in greece.

So you are suggesting that more sophiticated policies are in order? that is very vague.... details please?

What I don't understand about Greece in particular is they have a army of over 100,000 but they can't send them to patrol the thracian boarder and need to pay frontex to do it? Am I missing somethng here?

@reinhart

I don't think israel is saintly, but I don't take what I read on the internet first hand. Can I see the article you read it from?
 
Yes, to prevent a mass slaughter of innocent people.

Cambria Red... I think that Portugal had a lot of experience of colonial wars in Africa as late as the 70s and the 80s, wars in which the Portoguese were extremely cruel and invested most of their national wealth... even when at the end, they were kicked out by the African resistance movements, without exception.

Code:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Colonial_War

What are in your opinion, as a Portoguese, the messures to be taken to defeat Gaddafi.
 
I read it again and it seems like you think I don't know about the situation with illegals in greece.

So you are suggesting that more sophiticated policies are in order? that is very vague.... details please?

What I don't understand about Greece in particular is they have a army of over 100,000 but they can't send them to patrol the thracian boarder and need to pay frontex to do it? Am I missing somethng here?

@reinhart

I don't think israel is saintly, but I don't take what I read on the internet first hand. Can I see the article you read it from?


Well.. You know Google?
Don't be too lazy you old chap!

Ok.. A hint..

http://www.global-cst.com/

Sounds like Blackwater version III.

And it's Reinaert.

Member of the rebel forces against the European Empire. ;)
 
I read it again and it seems like you think I don't know about the situation with illegals in greece.

So you are suggesting that more sophiticated policies are in order? that is very vague.... details please?

What I don't understand about Greece in particular is they have a army of over 100,000 but they can't send them to patrol the thracian border and need to pay frontex to do it? Am I missing somethng here?

For a start I'm talking about illegals from Africa and Libya (and the war which is the topic) and if you think they are coming through the northern land borders then you can't know very much at all.

As I have already given more in the way of a solution than you have so far then surely it must be your turn to elaborate further, than merely tossing the hazy and superficial word policy into the ring. But remember these immigrants are coming in via the sea so talk of building walls and what the US do with Mexicans is no use. Please tell us how a coastline containing approx 1,400 islands, only 227 of which are inhabited, is to be patrolled successfully.
 
Cambria Red... I think that Portugal had a lot of experience of colonial wars in Africa as late as the 70s and the 80s, wars in which the Portoguese were extremely cruel and invested most of their national wealth... even when at the end, they were kicked out by the African resistance movements, without exception.

Code:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Colonial_War
What are in your opinion, as a Portoguese, the messures to be taken to defeat Gaddafi.

excelent comparison my friend.

the lybia war is another example of the same ancient european colonialism of that the iberians in africa...
 
Cambria Red... I think that Portugal had a lot of experience of colonial wars in Africa as late as the 70s and the 80s, wars in which the Portoguese were extremely cruel and invested most of their national wealth... even when at the end, they were kicked out by the African resistance movements, without exception.

Code:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Colonial_War

What are in your opinion, as a Portoguese, the messures to be taken to defeat Gaddafi.

The Portuguese colonial wars were a great tragedy and they would not have gone on as long as they did without American, British, Rhodesian and South African support. BTW, the wars went on from the early 60's until 1973.

Remember that Portugal was ruled by Salazar, a megalomaniac who kept the country isolated and the populace ignorant. He was a lunatic dictator who went to great extremes to "preserve" what was left of a global empire. Very unfortunate.

Gaddafi has to be forced out by both military and diplomatic means. Despite great oil wealth, a large majority of Libya's population is extremely poor and uneducated. The man has been terrorizing his people since he took power.
 
excelent comparison my friend.

the lybia war is another example of the same ancient european colonialism of that the iberians in africa...

The comparison is again a total flaw.
The Portuguese people wanted Salazar out!
I was there at the time. In the Dutch Navy.
We saw it happen!

Just like the Libyan people want Daffy out!

But there are second agenda's it seems.

Canek, there are a lot of Europeans against fascism.
Your language seems to be more like a CIA agent, provoking left wing Europeans.
 
Cambria Red... I think that Portugal had a lot of experience of colonial wars in Africa as late as the 70s and the 80s, wars in which the Portoguese were extremely cruel and invested most of their national wealth... even when at the end, they were kicked out by the African resistance movements, without exception.

Code:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Colonial_War

Don't mess up history.

The army revolted against an insane fascist government, with the support of the people of Portugal. The Portuguese navy was used as a negotiating platform with other Nato members.
How do I know? Well, I witnessed it. I was there.
Madeira, to be precise.. Funchal. :innocent:

One Canadian frigate could escape from Lisbon without a problem.
Look for the history of HMCS ASSINIBOINE II
 
The comparison is again a total flaw.
The Portuguese people wanted Salazar out!
I was there at the time. In the Dutch Navy.
We saw it happen!

Just like the Libyan people want Daffy out!

But there are second agenda's it seems.

Canek, there are a lot of Europeans against fascism.
Your language seems to be more like a CIA agent, provoking left wing Europeans.

it was spion spiritz who made the comparison not me.

please reinaert don't start your tr0lling attacks again. the forum was peaceful the moments you were banned.

help us to make this forum a quiet place like then.
 
it was spion spiritz who made the comparison not me.

please reinaert don't start your tr0lling attacks again. the forum was peaceful the moments you were banned.

help us to make this forum a quiet place like then.

You are a tr0ll.

Ok.. I ignore you from now on.
 
For a start I'm talking about illegals from Africa and Libya (and the war which is the topic) and if you think they are coming through the northern land borders then you can't know very much at all.

As I have already given more in the way of a solution than you have so far then surely it must be your turn to elaborate further, than merely tossing the hazy and superficial word policy into the ring. But remember these immigrants are coming in via the sea so talk of building walls and what the US do with Mexicans is no use. Please tell us how a coastline containing approx 1,400 islands, only 227 of which are inhabited, is to be patrolled successfully.

Well if you want to take entering from the sea as an example, the immigrants goal is not to go to the islands but head for major city centres. The greek government should look for them there and deport them back and ask to try again legally.
 
You are a tr0ll.

Ok.. I ignore you from now on.

you wrote:

But there are second agenda's it seems.

Canek, there are a lot of Europeans against fascism.
Your language seems to be more like a CIA agent, provoking left wing Europeans.

you're always this way, when someone says something you don't agree, you seek confrontantion with that person.

so please talk about the issue (the war of lybia) and not about me. be more tolerant.

i never talk about you. thank you.

bye.
 
Το Elias2 and antigone

this a video showing numbers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ps2Tol-pzA&feature=related

plz although it is political, I stay only in the numbers

1 000 000 immigrants only in 2004

and by what I hear in Patra Harbour and in Serres bounders lines
are estimated 300 000 ready to leave Greece to enter Italy, or Bulgaria-romania, and from there to Hungary,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro4713pXisA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkEPhY1PfCg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ6ak-M6DPU&feature=fvwrel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg2-ecYdffY&feature=related


the estimation of Greek population is 13 000 000 legal citizens, By National statistics
although we must not be surprized if reach 15 000 000
at 1981 was 8 000 000 89 % Greeks
the estimation gives 13 000 000 53% Greeks
so Greeks became minority in their Country,
until today 100 000 Greek moved to Bulgaria for better life and work
The law for Unemployment does not give clear numbers
cause with 90 days of work per year you are not considered Unemployed

from 1989 4 000 000 people accept medical and educational treatment and poverty salaries for being unemployed,
they share 6 and 8 people an appartment with 2 rooms.
payment Hrash and medical hrash and retiment Hrash is to help 5 000 000 @legal@ immigrants to have medical and Προνοια Providentia salaries,
The National debt is ejected after 1985 and East Block reform, cause Greece accepted and gave some session works or small work opportunities in million of emigrants, and also Providentia to many
the number are just like Germany accepting 25 000 000 in 10 year time
or Usa accept 70 000 000 in 10 years,
people in north pay some employers just to give them 90 days of work Ενσημα (stamps-seals-marks), cause with such unemployment the worker must pay for insurance, either no body hires you.

ok the above has nothing to do with thread,

But each war in middle East, Africa, wide India, raises illegal immigration in Europe,

in Greece we are talking about migration any more but for an organized plan of slavery by slave market masters
500 E per person from turkey to Greece
1000 E for person to pass to Italy

Remember that 300 000 places of work lost in Northern Greece the last 25 years due to high taxation and moved elsewhere in balkans,

If no reform the late revolts in Arab world, then wait for another 5 000 000 immigrants in Greece

it is cheaper to give free condoms to some countries, than these miserable slave market
 
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