Slavic homeland and ethnogenesis

Yes indeed i post,you haven't read the conclusion,this wasn't Balkans but Illyricum,it is within Balkan peninsula,but Balkans is much wider area,

Wether you like it or not, Illyria is geographically part of the Balkans, the western Balkans, more accurately.

none said that Slavic "evolved" within "Roman empire" that's your words over again,I had a post for the Balkanic sprachbund and the diffusion of the same words among the Slavic family for Tumulus for instance,Slavs were much later historical construct to talk about Slavs within the Roman empire.

You actually said that yourself (to quote you, on page 1 of this thread):

Another evidence that no Slavs migrated from Milograd culture or any of that region.
Much has been made of Slavic influence upon Romanian.But,if anything the linguistcis evidence contradicts the idea of migration of the Slavs from their Urheimat in Galicia(Western Ukraine) to the Balkans.Indeed,it has been noted that if speakers of Slavic came from some territory to the north east of what is today Romania one would expect a strong influence of East Slavic upon Romanian.This would be true even if "East Slavic" may not have existed at the time of supposed migration.Speakers of Slavic choosing to stay north of the Danube,instead joining the immigrants leaving for the Balkans,would remain in contact with the Urheimat and as a consequence their language would have been affected by changes most typical of East Slavic dialects.This would in turn show up in Slavic loans and various other features of the Slavic influence upon Romanian.But place and river names of Slavic origin in Romania overhelmingly point to a Southern not a Eastern influence,most Slavic loans in Romanian are of Balkan origin.

I also pinpoint you to your own assertation that the Phrygians were Slavs (page 2):

Some legend exist that Gordium, got the name from Gordias Phyrgian king,they were prior in the Balkans called according to Herodot Bryges = Breg (hill, slope, mountain) in Slavic,Gordium,Gordias can be explained like Gord=Proud,Gordium=Grad(city) etc Slavic,but they were perhaps some mix of couple languages,Balto-Slavic was elsewhere trough Thracian and various other languages it is bias to say otherwise,which traveling Slavs we are talking about here,because some group of people was labeled as Slavs by outsiders in the 6th century and many others adopt the same name doesn't explain anything if we talk about languages here.
 
Wether you like it or not, Illyria is geographically part of the Balkans, the western Balkans, more accurately.



You actually said that yourself (to quote you, on page 1 of this thread):



I also pinpoint you to your own assertation that the Phrygians were Slavs (page 2):
That does not mean that Slavic evolved in the Balkans,but rather mean that no Slavs came from North to South in the 7th century,or the cultures Milograd,Chernoles,I haven't claim any of those to be Slavs,we know what a Slav mean,we were comparing words and cognates,thus neither Phyrgian or Thracian can be Slav or opposite,they are what they are,all is fine.
 
Slavs are a forgery.
Is in fact Latvian,Lithuanians and Old Prussians and other Balto-Slavic people which conquered natives and imposed them some kind of Baltic language.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...avic-languages?p=461096&viewfull=1#post461096
After,over these conquered people Iranic speakers and Germanic speakers came,influenced them and this is how the so called "Slavs" appeared.
From where you have this?in my opinion if Balto-Slavic ever formed single language they were in places roughly they occupy today,Slavic as more innovative had contacts with more languages and replaced the archaic Balto-Slavic,no major migration were happening to perhaps explain this.one of cultural reflexes of the deep Slavonic-Iranian interaction Southern Europe existing for a long time in the first millennium B.C.which resulted in the imperceptible assimilation of Sarmato-Alans16. (Vasil’ev1998).
 
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Antonio Sciarretta's
Ancient Toponymy
The late place-names of probable Latin origin have not been included. The IE roots are in the form given by Pokorny's Indogermanische Wörterbuch. Place names that are or could be connected with Slavs.


Upper Pannonia
Celemantia
Place: Leanyvar of Iz^a, region Nitra, Slovakia
Name: Celamantia (Ptol.) Celemantia (inscr. ?)
Etymology: The ending -ant-ia is found in other Pannonian placenames of the area. As for the root, it recalls the Latin word calamo 'adversity' and thus the IE root *kel- 'to hit, cut down', from whence also Slavic names meaning 'pole' that could explain a toponymic formation.


Pelso lacus
Place: lake Balaton, Hungary
Name: Pelso lacus (Plin.) Pelsois (Rav., Iord.)
Etymology: Variously interpreted as Illyrian, Thracian, etc., and explained as 'deep', to be compared with a Czech pleso 'deep place in a river, lake', and thus to an IE root *pels-. However, there is no trace of such root in Pokorny. A more likely interpretation (Gasiorowski) is from a form *pels-on- derived from the IE root *pele- 'swamp'. Alternatively, one could posit a formation *pelt-s-os from the IE root *pel- 'wide and flat'. This explanation casually matches the later German name of the lake, 'Plattensee', which means 'flat lake', but which is actually an adaptation from a Slavic Blatno (Ozero) 'marshy (lake)'.


Lower Pannonia
Bustricius fl.
Place: not identified
Name: Bustricius fl. (Rav.)
Etymology: Usually (Anreiter) related to an appellative *bustra 'wild stream' reconstructed from the form *bhus-ro- of the IE root *b(h)eu- 'to swell, puff'. Compare with the Slavic appellative bystrica 'fast river'.

Serbinum
Place: Gradis^ka, entity Republika Srpska, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Name: Serbinum (Ptol.) Servitium (It. Ant., Peut., Not. Dign.) Serbitium (Rav.)
Etymology: It has been speculated that the name could refer to an earlier presence of the Serbi in the area. Explanations for this presence may include Sarmatian Serbians penetrated in the Pannonian plains and around together with the Iazyges, as well as a pre-historic presence of Slavs in the Central Balkan peninsula, as some toponyms from Illyria would also suggest (for example, Pasinum). However, the similarity between the toponym and the ethnic name could be just a coincidence, and the place name be derived from the IE root *serbh- 'to sip, swallow', as a term meaning 'abyss, gorge'.
 
I have no doubt that a high percentage of croatians as well as bosnians are from ancient Illyrian tribes

There is opinion that Bosnians, Croats and Western Serbs are descendants of Illyrians, you heard for Illyrian movement and idea for creating Greater Illyria (before idea about Yugoslavia) as country of South Slavs. And borders of Serbia in Middle age were more West, deep in territory of Illyria. There is opinion that Serbs in the East are Thracian but in XVII and XVIII century Serbia was quite emptied because Serbs migrated in different parts of Europe due to hard life under Turkish rule. And a lot of Serbs from Western parts of Balkans filled these space areas in XIX century and after. They migrated in Serbia from Montenegro, Herzegovina, Bosnia, Lika, Dalmatia etc. Even before the end of 20 century a lot of Western Serbs from Croatia and Bosnia migrated to Serbia. Today descendants of Western Serbs are majority in Serbia. If these opinions are accurate there are more descendants of Illyrians than descendants of Thracians in present day Serbia. Therefore and high percentage of Serbs are from ancient Illyrian tribes.

Of course connection exists and you're right. But this matter is complex and quick conclusions can lead to error. Setter of thread set very interesting but difficult thread. Regarding the ethnogenesis of the Slavs has many unanswered questions and the situation is further complicated by the lack of authentic sources, copies and forgeries created later, only complicate and obscure the real picture to which is difficult to reach.
 
Ancient Rituals- Mat Zemlya
Some work of Constantine L. Borissof.
The cult of the ‘Great Mother (Goddess)’ taking its beginning in the Palaeolithic times.
Central and Eastern Europe was the area of the oldest ‘Great Mother’ figurines bearing
explicit fertility connotations. One can see here a continuous tradition stretching back to
at least 25–30 Kya., subdued during the Last Glacial Maximum but springing up again in
the “Mythological crescent” (a term proposed in Haarmann & Marler 2008) around the
8th millennium BC. In South-Eastern Europe these figurines reappeared in mass in the
Cucuteni-Trypillian culture from ca.5500 B.C
320px-MotherGoddessFertility.JPG

The Great Mother had remained the
centre of the earliest Thracian, Phrygian and Minoan cults:
In the houses, statuettes have been found that must be interpreted as idols.
They are mostly female with strongly stressed sex properties. Male statuettes are
phallic. We can infer that the religion of this agricultural population was centred
on a fertility cult whose main figure was a Mother Goddess. (Katičić 1976).
It is believed that the main function of ‘Great Mother’ was “the creation and maintenance
of the Universe in the form of the constant cycle of rebirth of life”57 (Nikolaeva
2010a: 101).
Thracian Zemele is cognate with one of the
I-E words for ‘earth’ well preserved in Slavonic: zemlja/zemja. We may thus connect
the Thracian Zemele and Phrigyan Zemélō (ζεμέλω) ‘Earth-mother’ (Fasmer 1964–1973:
2,93) with the Slavonic archetype of Mat’-(syra)-Zemlya ‘Mother-(moist)-Earth’ and
Lithuanian Žemė Pati ‘Earth Spouse’ or Žemyna – the female deity of the earth.- mati [OCS] (mother) - zeme [OCS] (earth, soil) zeml[a]ja [OCS]

Mat Zemlya, also Matka Ziemia, and Mati Syra Zemlya (literally Damp Mother Earth), is the oldest deity in Slavic mythology.
In the early Middle Ages, Mati Syra Zemlya was one of the most important deities in the Slavic world. Oaths were made binding by touching the Earth and sins were confessed into a hole in the Earth before death. She was worshipped in her natural form and was not given a human personage or likeness. Since the adoption of Christianity in all Slavic lands, she has been identified with Mary, the mother of Jesus.An example of her importance is seen in this traditional invocation to Matka Ziema, made with a jar of hemp oil:
East – "Mother Earth, subdue every evil and unclean being so that he may not cast a spell on us nor do us any harm." West – "Mother Earth, engulf the unclean power in thy boiling pits, and in thy burning fires." South – "Mother Earth, calm the winds coming from the South and all bad weather. Calm the moving sands and whirlwinds." North – "Mother Earth, calm the North winds and clouds, subdue the snowstorms and the cold." The jar, which held the oil, is buried after each invocation and offering is made at each Quarter.

During Christianization of Kievan Rus' she was replaced by the cult of the Virgin Mary and St. Paraskevia.
In the Balkans:
For some scholars is a certain disambiguation concerning these three saints. Also confusion can be made with some folk tales characters. Paraskeva’s cult and attributes became confused with that of other saints with the same name as well as pre-Christian deities of the Slavs.
This confusion was made because the Greek name of St Parascheva was “paraskevi”, meaning “Friday”. The translation in languages as Romanian or Serbian was “Sfanta Vineri” or “Sveti Petka” meaning Saint Friday. The translation from Greek language to Romanian, Serbian or Bulgarian language was sometimes misunderstood by some scholars who connected the translated name of Saint Parascheva, Saint Friday, with a certain character from folk tales having a similar name.
As one scholar asks?Was Parasceve, or Paraskeva, an early Christian maiden named in honor of the day of the Crucifixion? Or was she a personification of that day, pictured cross in hand to assist the fervor of the faithful? And was the Paraskeva of the South Slavs the same who made her appearance in northern Russia?The answer is that there is a complete separation between the 10th-century Christian Saint Parascheva The New (called "of the Balkans") and folk character derived perhaps by pre-Christian mystical beliefs. The separation is made by rich biography and iconography transferred from 10th century to 21st, all this information and studies being connected to a real person who lived in that period.
 
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Upper Pannonia
Celemantia
Place: Leanyvar of Iz^a, region Nitra, Slovakia
Name: Celamantia (Ptol.) Celemantia (inscr. ?)
Etymology: The ending -ant-ia is found in other Pannonian placenames of the area. As for the root, it recalls the Latin word calamo 'adversity' and thus the IE root *kel- 'to hit, cut down', from whence also Slavic names meaning 'pole' that could explain a toponymic formation.

The suffix "-antia" is also found in a famous Celtiberian city, Numantia. Would you say that there were Slavs in pre-Roman Iberia, too? Also, I think you're misquoting Antonio Sciarretta there, because nowhere does he say that the name "Celamantia" is Slavic, he merely points out that there's Slavic names relating to "pole".
Indeed, there's nothing diagnostically Slavic about the name, nor Satem, since the reflex of "plain" *k in both Centum and Satem languages is identical (as opposed to palatovelars).

Pelso lacus
Place: lake Balaton, Hungary
Name: Pelso lacus (Plin.) Pelsois (Rav., Iord.)
Etymology: Variously interpreted as Illyrian, Thracian, etc., and explained as 'deep', to be compared with a Czech pleso 'deep place in a river, lake', and thus to an IE root *pels-. However, there is no trace of such root in Pokorny. A more likely interpretation (Gasiorowski) is from a form *pels-on- derived from the IE root *pele- 'swamp'. Alternatively, one could posit a formation *pelt-s-os from the IE root *pel- 'wide and flat'. This explanation casually matches the later German name of the lake, 'Plattensee', which means 'flat lake', but which is actually an adaptation from a Slavic Blatno (Ozero) 'marshy (lake)'.

Again, Sciaretto says that the modern German name is an adaptation from Slavic, not that the original name was Slavic.

Lower Pannonia
Bustricius fl.
Place: not identified
Name: Bustricius fl. (Rav.)
Etymology: Usually (Anreiter) related to an appellative *bustra 'wild stream' reconstructed from the form *bhus-ro- of the IE root *b(h)eu- 'to swell, puff'. Compare with the Slavic appellative bystrica 'fast river'.

(as per above, he just compares a Slavic cognate, which doesn't automatically mean the river name is Slavic)

Serbinum
Place: Gradis^ka, entity Republika Srpska, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Name: Serbinum (Ptol.) Servitium (It. Ant., Peut., Not. Dign.) Serbitium (Rav.)
Etymology: It has been speculated that the name could refer to an earlier presence of the Serbi in the area. Explanations for this presence may include Sarmatian Serbians penetrated in the Pannonian plains and around together with the Iazyges, as well as a pre-historic presence of Slavs in the Central Balkan peninsula, as some toponyms from Illyria would also suggest (for example, Pasinum). However, the similarity between the toponym and the ethnic name could be just a coincidence, and the place name be derived from the IE root *serbh- 'to sip, swallow', as a term meaning 'abyss, gorge'.

This doesn't make sense. Proto-Slavic (the ancestor language of the various branches) itself began only to fragmented only during the Migration period. How would Proto-Slavic speakers have kept linguistic unity if the Slavic speakers were already - as you assert - spread out over a large part of Europe before the Migration Period (which, as you insist, didn't even exist to begin with). I agree with Sciaretto's alternative explanation (bolded), namely that the names are just coincidentially similar.

Ancient Rituals- Mat Zemlya
Some work of Constantine L. Borissof.
The cult of the ‘Great Mother (Goddess)’ taking its beginning in the Palaeolithic times.
Central and Eastern Europe was the area of the oldest ‘Great Mother’ figurines bearing
explicit fertility connotations. One can see here a continuous tradition stretching back to
at least 25–30 Kya., subdued during the Last Glacial Maximum but springing up again in
the “Mythological crescent” (a term proposed in Haarmann & Marler 2008) around the
8th millennium BC. In South-Eastern Europe these figurines reappeared in mass in the
Cucuteni-Trypillian culture from ca.5500 B.C

The Great Mother had remained the
centre of the earliest Thracian, Phrygian and Minoan cults:
In the houses, statuettes have been found that must be interpreted as idols.
They are mostly female with strongly stressed sex properties. Male statuettes are
phallic. We can infer that the religion of this agricultural population was centred
on a fertility cult whose main figure was a Mother Goddess. (Katičić 1976).
It is believed that the main function of ‘Great Mother’ was “the creation and maintenance
of the Universe in the form of the constant cycle of rebirth of life”57 (Nikolaeva
2010a: 101).
Thracian Zemele is cognate with one of the
I-E words for ‘earth’ well preserved in Slavonic: zemlja/zemja. We may thus connect
the Thracian Zemele and Phrigyan Zemélō (ζεμέλω) ‘Earth-mother’ (Fasmer 1964–1973:
2,93) with the Slavonic archetype of Mat’-(syra)-Zemlya ‘Mother-(moist)-Earth’ and
Lithuanian Žemė Pati ‘Earth Spouse’ or Žemyna – the female deity of the earth.- mati [OCS] (mother) - zeme [OCS] (earth, soil) zeml[a]ja [OCS]

Mat Zemlya, also Matka Ziemia, and Mati Syra Zemlya (literally Damp Mother Earth), is the oldest deity in Slavic mythology.
In the early Middle Ages, Mati Syra Zemlya was one of the most important deities in the Slavic world. Oaths were made binding by touching the Earth and sins were confessed into a hole in the Earth before death. She was worshipped in her natural form and was not given a human personage or likeness. Since the adoption of Christianity in all Slavic lands, she has been identified with Mary, the mother of Jesus.An example of her importance is seen in this traditional invocation to Matka Ziema, made with a jar of hemp oil:
East – "Mother Earth, subdue every evil and unclean being so that he may not cast a spell on us nor do us any harm." West – "Mother Earth, engulf the unclean power in thy boiling pits, and in thy burning fires." South – "Mother Earth, calm the winds coming from the South and all bad weather. Calm the moving sands and whirlwinds." North – "Mother Earth, calm the North winds and clouds, subdue the snowstorms and the cold." The jar, which held the oil, is buried after each invocation and offering is made at each Quarter.

During Christianization of Kievan Rus' she was replaced by the cult of the Virgin Mary and St. Paraskevia.
In the Balkans:
For some scholars is a certain disambiguation concerning these three saints. Also confusion can be made with some folk tales characters. Paraskeva’s cult and attributes became confused with that of other saints with the same name as well as pre-Christian deities of the Slavs.
This confusion was made because the Greek name of St Parascheva was “paraskevi”, meaning “Friday”. The translation in languages as Romanian or Serbian was “Sfanta Vineri” or “Sveti Petka” meaning Saint Friday. The translation from Greek language to Romanian, Serbian or Bulgarian language was sometimes misunderstood by some scholars who connected the translated name of Saint Parascheva, Saint Friday, with a certain character from folk tales having a similar name.
As one scholar asks?Was Parasceve, or Paraskeva, an early Christian maiden named in honor of the day of the Crucifixion? Or was she a personification of that day, pictured cross in hand to assist the fervor of the faithful? And was the Paraskeva of the South Slavs the same who made her appearance in northern Russia?The answer is that there is a complete separation between the 10th-century Christian Saint Parascheva The New (called "of the Balkans") and folk character derived perhaps by pre-Christian mystical beliefs. The separation is made by rich biography and iconography transferred from 10th century to 21st, all this information and studies being connected to a real person who lived in that period.

I have a couple of questions here: first, do you now believe that the Slavic languages have been on the Balkans since the Neolithic (funny if PIE only dates from Chalkolithic, according to Kurgan hypothesis, or are you going to challenge that? )? Second, where are the attestations of your "Slavic mother deity" on the Roman Balkans?
 
The suffix "-antia" is also found in a famous Celtiberian city, Numantia. Would you say that there were Slavs in pre-Roman Iberia, too? Also, I think you're misquoting Antonio Sciarretta there, because nowhere does he say that the name "Celamantia" is Slavic, he merely points out that there's Slavic names relating to "pole".
Indeed, there's nothing diagnostically Slavic about the name, nor Satem, since the reflex of "plain" *k in both Centum and Satem languages is identical (as opposed to palatovelars).



Again, Sciaretto says that the modern German name is an adaptation from Slavic, not that the original name was Slavic.



(as per above, he just compares a Slavic cognate, which doesn't automatically mean the river name is Slavic)



This doesn't make sense. Proto-Slavic (the ancestor language of the various branches) itself began only to fragmented only during the Migration period. How would Proto-Slavic speakers have kept linguistic unity if the Slavic speakers were already - as you assert - spread out over a large part of Europe before the Migration Period (which, as you insist, didn't even exist to begin with). I agree with Sciaretto's alternative explanation (bolded), namely that the names are just coincidentially similar.



I have a couple of questions here: first, do you now believe that the Slavic languages have been on the Balkans since the Neolithic (funny if PIE only dates from Chalkolithic, according to Kurgan hypothesis, or are you going to challenge that? )? Second, where are the attestations of your "Slavic mother deity" on the Roman Balkans?
I don't missquote anyone here,my only words are "place names that are or could be connected to Slavs" that's again hypothetic sentence,everything else is authors work,don't twist words please,actualy it has been noted that a uniform Slavic language community could not have been possibly maintained during the supposed migration of Slavs, phenomenom encompassing a vast area of Europe,but for which historians have reserved only relative short period of time.Kurgan is not the only hypothesis of IE,there is others that challenge that not myself,I do believe that Slavic or Balto-Slavic was already in the Balkans much prior Roman conquest and no doubt for the Danube basin,and actualy much prior from the written sources of first "Sklavenoi" raids and attacks which somehow according to them Slavic history is written,cause simple Slavic language was attested much prior in Pannonian plain,Slavs were later historical "innovation' for their mother deity to be "attested" for instance Serbs were called Triballians by the Greeks not "Slavs.For the mother goddess deity i wrote the connections with similar meaning and worship perhaps or maybe you want to say that "Slavs" were isolated in Milograd with no contact to other European cultures.That was from Slavic written sources themselves.
Similar
ZALMOXIS was the founder, possibly legendary, of a priestly line of succession closely linked with kingship of the Getae and the Dacians, the northernmost Thracian peoples of the ancient world. Whether he is a figure of legend or of history is moot, as are questions of his religious functions. Associated both with priesthood and with kingship, he was divinized and became the object of a widespread cult among both northern and southern Thracian peoples.The name Zalmoxis is attested by ancient authors from Herodotus and Plato (fifth-fourth centuries bce) to Diodoros of Tyre (second century ce) and Jordanes (sixth century ce). Herodotus spells the name Salmoxis; Strabo gives it as Zamolxis. The genuine form, however, is Zalmoxis, support for which is found in such Thracian names asZalmodegikos and Zelmutas and in numerous composites formed with -zelmis, -zelmos, and -selmios. Zamolxis is only a metathesis, frequent since Strabo (first century bce), with no parallels in Thracian onomastics.Porphyry (third century ce) explains the etymology of Zalmoxis through the Thracian word zalmos ("skin"; Gr., dora), and in supporting this thesis he offers an etiologic legend that tells of the covering of Zalmoxis at birth with a bearskin (Life of Pythagoras 14–15). But Porphyry also gives another explanation of the meaning of the name: "foreigner" (Gr., xenos aner ). On this basis Paul Kretschmer compared the metathetical form Zamolxis with the Phrygian zemelen ("barbarian slave"; Gr., barbaron andrapodon ), with Zemelo, the name of a Thraco-Phrygian earth goddess (compare the Greek Semele ), and with the Slavic zemlja ("earth") and thus explained Zamolxis as meaning "lord of men" (for -xis, compare the Avestan xshaya-, "lord, king"). Hence was developed (mainly by I. I. Russu) the theory of the chthonic character of this god, which led to the ongoing dispute over his real functions.
According to Herodotos (Histories 4.94), some Getae also gave Zalmoxis the name Gebeleizis or Beleizis, which Kretschmer has related to the same Indo-European root, *gʾhem-el- ("earth"), that he traced in Zamolxis. Given that Herodotus spoke about a thundering god, Wilhelm Tomaschek corrected the name to Zibeleizis, meaning "thunder sender" (compare the Lithuanian žaibas, "thunderbolt," which has no clear etymology). More recently, Cicerone Poghirc (1983) has proposed, for reasons of textual criticism, the reading Nebeleizis, meaning "god of the [stormy] sky" (compare the Slavic nebo, "sky," and the Greek nephele, "cloud"). …There was no Roman attestation.
 
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Zalmoksis, Zibeleizis, Zalmodegikos, Zelmutas... sounds like bunch of Lithuanians :D

I think Dacians did speak Satem language similar to Balto-Slavic and there probably were some other closely related to (Balto)Slavic dialects before Slavs in those lands. But what was their impact on South Slavic or common proto-Slavic, if any.. good question.
 
Zalmoksis, Zibeleizis, Zalmodegikos, Zelmutas... sounds like bunch of Lithuanians :D

I think Dacians did speak Satem language similar to Balto-Slavic and there probably were some other closely related to (Balto)Slavic dialects before Slavs in those lands. But what was their impact on South Slavic or common proto-Slavic, if any.. good question.
I read some article on Balto-South Slavic isoglosses and they came to conclusions that "proto" South Slavic speakers were "neighbours" with Baltic languages.Which Slavic language today has the most common words with Baltic languages?but this could be later interactions.
 
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Theophylact Simocatta (Greek: Θεοφύλακτος Σιμοκάτ(τ)ης – Theophylaktos Simokat(t)es) was an early seventh-century Byzantine historiographer, arguably ranking as the last historian of Late Antiquity, writing in the time of Heraclius (c 630) about the late Emperor Maurice (582–602) he was calling Sclavenes and the Getae with the "same" name and one and same people,just showing the mentality of the Byzantine antiquity historians.
Quote:As for the Getae, that is to say the herds of Sclavenes, they were fiercly ravaging the regions of Thrace…………. Quote:
……..
These, therefore, encountered six hundred Sclavenes who were escorting a great haul of Romans, for they had ravaged Zaldapa, Aquis, and Scopi, and were herding back these unfortunates as plunder; a large number of wagons held the possessions they had looted. When the barbarians observed the Romans approaching, and were then likewise observed, they turned to the slaughter of the captives. Then the adult male captives from youth upwards were killed. Since the barbarians could not avoid an encounter, they collected the wagons and placed them round as a barricade, depositing the women and youth in the middle of the defence.The Romans drew near to the Getae (for this is the older name for the barbarians) but did not dare to come to grips, since they were afraid of the javelins which the barbarians were sending from the barricade against their horses. ……………… -- Theophlact Simocatta.The Getae are names given to several Thracian tribes inhabiting the regions to either side of the Lower Danube
 
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The derived Greek term Sklavinia(i) (Greek: Σκλαβινίαι, Latin: SCLAVINIAE) was used for the "Slav" settlements (area, territory) which were initially out of Byzantine control and independent.

Sklaviniai and Ethnic Adjectives
:A Clarification Florin Curta University Florida. USA Abstract:
It has been recently claimed that the first reference to Sklavinia as a territory inhabited primarily by Slavs is to be found in Theophanes Confessor. A particular passage in Theophylact Simocatta in which the word appears has been supposedly mistranslated. In reality, the passage in question contains a reference to Sklavinia at least 150 years older than the Chronographia of Theophanes.Key words: Theophylact Simocatta, Slavs, Sklavinia, Vita Willibaldi.
Having prepared for some time for the trip, Bishop Willibaldof Eichstätt finally departed in 722 for the Holy Land in the company of his father and brother. According to Hugeburc of Heidenheim, who wrote the bishop’s biography half a century later, Willibald embarked at Syracuse and “reached the city of Monemvasia,Morea (Peloponesse) in the land of Sclavinia (et inde navigantes, venerunt ultra mare Adria ad urbem Manafasiamin Slawinia terrae)” most likely in 723 (Vita Willibaldi 93; English translation byC. H. Talbot, from Noble and Head 151)1. Hugeburc’s use of the word Slawiniais the first instance in Latin of a specific name for the “land of the Slavs”2. In a somewhat different form (Sclavinia), the term appears in slightly later sources of the Carolingian age to refer to territories within the Empire, which were inhabited by Slavs (Bertels 160-161)3. Hugeburc could have hardly invented the word, which later entered the specialized language of the Carolingian chancery.If taking at face value her claim that she wrote the biography of Willibald “indictation from his own mouth” one would have to admit that Slawinia was the bishop’s word (Vita Willibaldi 86; English translation from Noble and Head143-144)4. He in turn may have learned it (or rather the original form Sclavinia)in Constantinople, during his sojourn in the City on his return trip from the Holy Land (Ronin 440). The term was certainly in use in Byzantium shortly after AD 800, as attested by the Latin translation of the letter Emperor MichaelII sent to Louis the Pious to justify his attachment to iconoclasm: “de Asiae et Europae partibus, Thraciae,Macedoniae, Thessaloniae, et circumiacentibus Sclaviniis” (Concilia 477)5.
In Greek, the term is employed many times in the Chronicle of Theophanes Confessor, which was finished in the early 810s (Theophanes Confessor 347,364, 430, and 486)6. Theophanes used both the singular and the plural forms of the word to refer to a territory against which the Byzantine emperors ConstansII, Justinian II, and Constantine V launched military expeditions. In at least one case, the Sklaviniai in question are located in Macedonia, while in another,the term is clearly employed for what seems to be a territory under imperial rule(Theophanes Confessor 430 and 486)7. In 810, Emperor Nicephorus I ordered Christians from all the provinces of the Empire to move into the Sklaviniai(Theophanes Confessor 486). This strongly suggests that in the early ninth century, shortly before Theophanes finished the manuscript of his chronicle,the meaning of the word Sklavinia has changed to refer to a territory (recently)conquered and incorporated into the Empire. That, in fact, is the meaning of the word in Ignatius the Deacon’s Life of Gregory of Dekapolis, written around 855.According to Ignatius, at some point during his long sojourn in Thessaloniki between 835 and 841, St. Gregory left the city together with a young disciple and went to a Sklavinia in the hinterland. He returned quickly after for seeing a great deal of bloodshed and unrest to be caused, for reasons that remained unknown, by the exarch of the Sklavinia (Makris 110 and 28-29, for the date of the composition)8. That leaders of Sklaviniai such as the exarch mentioned by Ignatius the Deacon were in the service of the emperor results from the fact that long before embarking on the mission to Moravia together with his younger brother Constantine, St. Methodius is said to have served as archon of a Sklavinia(Kronsteiner 48; Nasledova 87).However, the term Sklavinia was by no means an invention of the ninth century. Before Theophanes, the word appears in the text of the Miracles of St. Demetrius, in a homily of Book I concerning the 586 siege of Thessalonica by 100,000 Sclavenes and other barbarians under the orders of the Avar ruler.That ruler is said to have “gathered all the ferocious tribes of the Sklavinias(τὴν ἅπασαν τῶν Σκλαβηνιῶν θρησκείαν καὶ θηριώδη φυλήν) –for the whole nation took orders from him– mixed them with some other barbarians of different nations and ordered them to undertake an expedition against the God-protected city of Thessaloniki” (Lemerle 1979, 134)9. Archbishop John of Thessalonica wrote the homilies in Book I of the Miracles of St. Demetrius at some point during the first decade of Emperor Heraclius’ reign (Lemerle 1981, 44 and 80;Macrides 189; Whitby 1988, 116)10. His mention of Sklavinias would thus be two centuries older than Theophanes’. However, according to Paul Lemerle, the word Σκλαβηνιῶν in the tenth-century manuscript Vaticanus graecus 797 is a corrupted form of Σκλαβηνῶν, in which case the tribes in questions would be“of the Slavs”, and not “of the Sklavinias”11. There is in fact no other mention of Sklavinias in the Miracles of St. Demetrius. Moreover, Paul Lemerle’s ammendation makes much more sense in the light of Archbishop John’s concept of “nation”(ἔθνος) and “tribe” (φῦλον). To him, the Slavs, whom he always called Σκλαβίνοιor Σκλαβηνοί, but never Σκλάβοι, were an ἔθνος with many tribes, all of which were called in 586 to participate in the attack on Thessalonica12.Is then Evangelos Chrysos right when claiming that Sklavinia appears“in no Greek source of the sixth or the seventh century” (Chrysos 126)? To besure, his claim refers primarily to a passage in Theophylact Simocatta’s History concerning the military situation on the Lower Danube in the summer of 602,right before the revolt of Phocas:As summer was hastening on, word reached the emperor Maurice that the Chagan was cunningly providing a respite for warfare so that when the Roman troops were wandering at random, he might in a surprise move assault the vicinity of Byzantium. Therefore he ordered the general [Peter, the emperor’s brother] to leave Adrianopolis,and commended him to make the crossing of the Ister. And so Peter prepared to move camp against the horde of the Sklavinia (ὁ μἐν οὖν Πἑτρος κατἁ τῆς Σκλαυηνίας πληθύος στρατοπεδεύσθαι) (293; English translation from Whitby and Whitby 217).Chrysos, following Carl de Boor, the nineteenth-century editor of Theophylact’s History, took the word Σκλαυηνίας to be not a noun, but an adjective modifying the noun πληθύς (Carl de Boor, in Theophylact Simocatta 345;Chrysos 125-126). He therefore endorsed Mary and Michael Whitby’s translationof κατἁ τῆς Σκλαυηνίας πληθύος as “against the Sclavene horde” Besides relying on the authority of Carl de Boor, Chrysos’s main argument is that “the adjective sklavinios is known also from the Old Slavonic version of the Vita Methodii”, the second chapter of which contains the phrase knyazhenie slavensko. This, according to Chrysos (and Radoslav Katičić, who apparently translated the text to him into Byzantine Greek) must correspond to the Greek phrase Σκλαυηνία αρχή(Chrysos 126 n. 8). Leaving aside the unwarranted assumption that the Life of Methodius is not an original work in Old Church Slavonic, but a translation from Greek –an assumption not supported by any shred of evidence and contrary to everything that has so far been written on the Life of Methodius by generations of scholars (Dvornik, Ondruš, Petkanova, Birnbaum)– it is significant that Chrysos could not find a single text in Greek in support of his idea that the word Σκλαυηνία is an adjective13. For at a closer look, it appears that no such adjective exists in the (medieval) Greek language. When in need to refer to the quality of being “Slavic” medieval authors writing in Greek used instead σκλαυήνικος,σκλαβινικός, or σκλαβικός. For example, when referring to the boats the Slavs used to attack Thessalonica, the unknown author of Book II of the Miracles of St. Demetrius wrote of σκλαβικῶν νηῶν (Lemerle 1979, 177). According to the equally unknown author of the early seventh-century military treatise known as the Strategikon, in order to be efficient Roman units of light infantry needed to have short lances, like those of the Slavs, λαγχίδια Σκλαβινίσκια (Dennis andGamillscheg 422)14. Both Leo the Wise and Constantine Porphyrogenitus wrote of Slavic people as Σκλαβικὰ ἔθνη (Dennis 470; Moravcsik 138 and 140)15. In the late eleventh-century Life of St. Clement of Ochrid attributed to Theophylact of Ochrid, the letters invented by Constantine-Cyril to render the sounds of Old Church Slavonic are called σθλοβενικὰ γράμματα (Iliev 82 and 70-71, for authorship and date)16.None of those terms appear in Theophylact Simocatta’s work. As a matter of fact, there is no adjective derived from the noun Σκλαυηνοί/Σκλαβηνοί, which is commonly translated into English as “Slavs”17. Wherever Theophylact needed an adjective modifying a noun, he preferred to use Σκλαυηνοί/Σκλαβηνοί in attributive genitive. “Hordes of Slavs (πλήθη Σκλαυηνῶν)” appear many times in the History, but there is no Slavic horde (Theophylact Simocatta 52, 53, 226, 232,etc.). Moreover, the term πληθύς (or its equivalent πλῆθος, more often used in plural form) meaning “multitude” is commonly translated as “horde” when in the company of an attributive genitive referring to the Slavs, to barbarians, or to enemies, in general (Theophylact Simocatta 253, 271, and 293 for hordes of barbarians; Theophylact Simocatta 293 for hordes of enemies)18. Nowhere in Theophylact’s History is any noun for “multitude” accompanied by an adjective derived from an ethnic name. The horde against which Peter prepared to move camp were therefore not Slavic, but of (or in) the Sklavinia19.This interpretation is substantiated by the evidence of the textual context.According to Theophylact, Peter was about to cross the Danube, as the following paragraph explains that a scribo appointed by Emperor Maurice was to furnish ferry boats to the Roman army under Peter’s command, “so that they might cross the river (ὅπως τὸν ποταμὸν διανήξονται)” (Theophylact Simocatta 293; English translation from Whitby and Whitby 217). The attributive genitive of the plural noun for “barbarians” is also used to refer to the land across the river Danube as separate and different from the land of the Romans (Theophylact Simocatta295)20. In other words, the name of the land across the Danube from the Roman provinces in the Balkans is the “land of Slavs”, or Sklavinia. As Gennadii Litavrin has long noted, this appears to be a name on a par with such notions employed by ancient Greek or Roman ethnographers as Scythia, Germania, or Sarmatia, all of which had no clear definition in either territorial or political terms (Litavrin1984, 195). In any case, Theophylact’s Sklavinia has no political, but only territorial sense: the horde against which Peter was preparing to move was that of a particular territory inhabited by Slavs, and not an army of an organized polity established by Slavs in that region across the Danube.Despite Evangelos Chrysos’s claims to the contrary, therefore, Theophylact Simocatta is the first author to have used the term Sklavinia with the meaning“land of the Slavs”, and he did so more than a century before Hugeburc of Heidenheim and Theophanes Confessor. Theophylact finished his History inca. 630, for the last events mentioned in his work are Heraclius’ victory over Rhazates in 627, the death of Khusro II, and the conclusion of peace with Persia in the following year. He is often compared to George of Pisidia or the authorof the Chronicon Paschale, for having composed substantial parts of his narrative in the optimistic mood of the late 620s, after Heraclius’ triumph (Olajos 1981,417-424; Olajos 1981-1982, 41; Olajos 1988, 11; Whitby 1988, 39-40). It has also been suggested that, since his History focuses exclusively on the Balkans and the eastern front, Theophylact’s goal was to explain the events of 626 in the light of Emperor Maurice’s policies in the Balkans and the East (Curta 2001, 56).Beginning with Book VI of his work, he relied on what Hans Wilhelm Haussig once called the Feldzugs journal, a campaign diary written at some point after Phocas’ accession of 602 by a participant in Priscus’ and Peter’s campaigns against the Slavs and the Avars (Haussig 296; for Theophylact’s use of the campaign diary,see Curta 2001, 56-59). Some have even suggested that for the chapters VIII 5.5to VIII 7.7 narrating the events of 601 and 602, particularly Phocas’ revolt of November 602, Theophylact may have used reports of surviving participants,such as Godwin, general Peter’s second-in-command. Indeed, Godwin is the one who “crossed the river [Danube], destroyed hordes of enemies in the jaws of thes word, secured a large body of captives, and acquired great glory” (Theophylact Simocatta 217; see Olajos 1988, 152). Could then the use of Sklavinia at VIII5.10 be attributed to Godwin, Theophylact’s alleged source? In my opinion, the answer must be negative for a variety of reasons. First, this is the only instance of Sklavinia not only in the chapters believed to have been based on interviews with Godwin, but also in the entire work of Theophylact. Second, when in need to refer to the lands across the Danube in which the soldiers in Peter’s army were ordered to pass the winter of 602/603, Theophylact employed a periphrasis,ἐν ταῖς τῶν Σκλαυηνῶν χώραις (Theophylact Simocatta 293)21. Irrespective of the bombastic style of his narrative, Theophylact’s choice of a periphrasis at thispoint cannot be just as a way to avoid repetition of the word Sklavinia22.Why then did he use the word at VIII 5.10? An attentive examination of the entire passage covering the events of the summer of 602, up to the order of the emperor to his troops to spend the winter in the lands of the Slavs (VIII 5-8to VIII 6.1) shows that Theophylact was at pains describing three different movements of armies and peoples in relation to the river Danube, which he viewed as separating the Empire from the barbarians. On one hand, Peter’s troops under the command of Godwin crossed the river against the Slavs, taking large numbers of captives with which the Romans wanted to return to the Roman provinces inthe Balkans, but “Godwin for a time prevented them from doing this” (Whitby and Whitby 217). Meanwhile, the qagan of the Avars dispatched an army “to destroy the nation of the Antes, which was in fact allied to the Romans” (Whitby and Whitby 217). It remains unclear whether the Avar army moved along the left or the right bank of the river Danube. Given that Godwin and his troops were still north of the river, it is possible that the Avars moved along the southern bank, through what was theoretically Roman territory. That much results from the description of the third concomitant movement of people: “In the course oft hese very events, large numbers defected from the Avars and hastened to desert to the emperor” (Whitby and Whitby 217)23. Furthermore, the expedition of the Avars against the Antes is specifically attributed to the Chagan’s reaction to the“Roman incursions” (Whitby and Whitby 217)24. In other words, in response to the Roman attacks on the Slavs, the Avars decided to attack the traditional allies of the Romans farther to the east. The Chagan regarded the Slavs north of the Lower Danube as his subjects, even if he had previously agreed to treat the Danube “as intermedium (μεσίτης) between Romans and Avars” and to allow the Romans “to cross the river against the Sclavenes”25. From a Roman point of view, therefore, a distinction needed to be made between those barbarian lands which were under the direct rule of the Chagan, and the territory which, though theoretically under Avar rule (at least in the eyes of the Chagan), was effectively controlled by more or less independent Slavs. Both were on the other side of the Danube, in contrast to the “land of the Romans” to the south from that river.In the context of the account of the events of the summer of 602, Theophylact needed something to draw a sharp distinction between them. It was from the lands under the direct rule of the Chagan that those Avars came, who would later defect to the Romans. Conversely, it was against the territories controlled by independent Slavs that the Roman troops moved under the command of Godwin. “Hordes of barbarians were surging around the land on the opposite bank of the Ister (τὸ πλήθη βαρβάραων περικυμαίνειν τὴν χώραν τὴν ἀντίπεραςτοῦ Ἴστρου)” (Theophylact Simocatta 293: English translation from Whitby andWhitby 218). Godwin’s operations of 602, however, were directed only against one of those hordes, namely that from Sklavinia, “the territory of the Sclavenes”in which the Roman troops would soon be ordered to spend the winter.Theophylact Simocatta’s use of the word Sklavinia –the first such instance in the literature written in Greek– is nothing more than a narrative device, the role of which is to focus his audience’s attention upon a particular part of the barbarian lands north of the river Danube in the context of a paragraph covering the rather complicated events of the summer of 602. Instead of an attributive genitive, such as commonly used in his work to refer to the quality of being Slavic, Theophylact invented a name for the land of the Slavs derived from the very name he used for them in the History. The territorial meaning of the word was linked to, and in fact limited by the specific circumstances described in the paragraph in which it was used. Theophylact did not employ any other, similar names of barbarian territories or lands derived from ethnic names. There is no Avaria and no Tourkia in Theophylact’s History. That there is instead a Sklaviniais largely due to his peculiar style and narrative strategies. It may well be that Theophylact did not in fact invent the word, and that the term was already used occasionally at the time to refer loosely to the lands inhabited by Slavs.However, it is only in the early ninth century that the territorial meaning was firmly established, thus allowing a shift towards a political interpretation, as the“lands of the Slavs” began to move inside the Empire.
 
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Zalmoksis, Zibeleizis, Zalmodegikos, Zelmutas... sounds like bunch of Lithuanians :D

I think Dacians did speak Satem language similar to Balto-Slavic and there probably were some other closely related to (Balto)Slavic dialects before Slavs in those lands. But what was their impact on South Slavic or common proto-Slavic, if any.. good question.
The work on South Slavic-Baltic isoglosses was neglected cause perhaps the two were far but actualy some work of Berstein and Trubachev appear that "proto" South-Slavic share many isoglosses with Baltic that other Slavic languages don't share and were actualy "neighbors" from which i post some but maybe are not translated properly cause i took it from Russian you have a post prior with them.
 
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Interesting article, but still on very beginning of the work.
Anyway if this is a thing, then there are two versions. Version1 Slavs arrived to South Slavic lands from somewhere near Balts. Version 2 - some Baltic tribes or clans participated in Slavic migrations South.
 
Interesting article, but still on very beginning of the work.
Anyway if this is a thing, then there are two versions. Version1 Slavs arrived to South Slavic lands from somewhere near Balts. Version 2 - some Baltic tribes or clans participated in Slavic migrations South.
Well Baltic languages was once spoken on much wider area then today,im personaly not suporter of migration for various reasons,However Vyacheslav Ivanov and Vladimir Toporov proposed an alternative division, suggesting that the Balto-Slavic proto-language split from the start into West Baltic, East Baltic and Proto-Slavic.With this, Ivanov and Toporov put Baltic unity in question. In their framework, Proto-Slavic is a peripheral and innovative Balto-Slavic dialect which suddenly expanded, due to a conjunction of historical circumstances, and effectively erased all the other Balto-Slavic dialects except in the marginal areas where Lithuanian,Latvian and Old Prussian developed. This model is supported by glottochronologic studies by V.V.Kromer, although both of the most recent computer-generated family trees have a Baltic node parallel to the Slavic node.Onomastic evidence shows that Baltic languages were once spoken in much wider territory than the one they cover today, all the way to Moscow and were later replaced by Slavic,While some others propose center to be more innovative while periphery preserve,should also note that the Southern most "Thracian" periphery somewhere in present day Bulgaria although not classified in any group share many things with Baltic and Balto-Slavic.
 
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