Genetic study South Albania Tumulus DNA samples

[PaleoRevenge]

Unless Dorian Greeks had a material culture that was identical to the rest of the Greek tribes the so called Dorian Invasion is archaeologically a non-event. As in nothing changed except the dialect. The current thinking is that even the dialects were differentiated once in Greece rather than outside of Greece.

Ancient Greeks thought Dorian migrations were real. I'd like to know how they were duped into believing an alleged lie.

 

[peloponnesian]

Ancient Greeks thought Dorian migrations were real. I'd like to know how they were duped into believing an alleged lie.

If you believe all the stories Ancient Greeks told about themselves then you will find a hard time reconciling the stories with any genetic evidence. Are we supposed to believe Athenians sprang from the earth of Attica?

As for the Dorian issue, obviously there were movements of people but they might have been more limited than previously thought and in any case there's no reason to assume Dorians lived that far away from Mycenaeans.

 

[Riverman]

If you believe all the stories Ancient Greeks told about themselves then you will find a hard time reconciling the stories with any genetic evidence. Are we supposed to believe Athenians sprang from the earth of Attica?

As for the Dorian issue, obviously there were movements of people but they might have been more limited than previously thought and in any case there's no reason to assume Dorians lived that far away from Mycenaeans.

Going by the archaeological evidence, the immigration of different tribal people from the North started before the Mycenaean collapse. They were there as slaves, workers, traders and mercenaries. The "Barbarian Ware" type pottery was produced inside of the Mycenaean city states. And its possible to differentiate between different elements which came from different geographical regions and by different routes, like G?va-related Channelled Ware people over land from the Tisza-Danubian zone, Proto-Villanovans by sea etc.

That's also part of the story, which sounds familiar to both the Late Roman era and the modern one, of migrants which came in to first live on the lower social strata of a rich society, to then climb up and finally bring in their relatives and whole tribes to take over. What we can see in Greece is that the locals kind of organised a resistance and while being heavily influenced in their rites and customs, by and large prevailed against the more completely foreign groups from the wider Urnfield sphere. But the whole Greek-related sphere was kind of squeezed down and South, with much of the territories of the North, which were strongly Mycenaean and generally Greek influenced before, being lost. The Dorian migration therefore is most likely the result of both push and pull factor, in which the Northern Greeks prevailed both over local Greek elements and those Urnfielders which came in behind them.

The only real question to me is whether or not these Dorian/Northern Greeks did assimilate Urnfielders into their ranks in the process and if they did, to which extent.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

If you believe all the stories Ancient Greeks told about themselves then you will find a hard time reconciling the stories with any genetic evidence. Are we supposed to believe Athenians sprang from the earth of Attica?

As for the Dorian issue, obviously there were movements of people but they might have been more limited than previously thought and in any case there's no reason to assume Dorians lived that far away from Mycenaeans.

I am glad modern Greeks loaded with E-V13, R1b(of Albanian and Vlach sub-clades) and Slavic haplogroups know their history better than the Greeks over 2,000 years ago. What could they have known anyway. They probably only had two genders too, proving that they did not know much.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Came across a interesting paper called Bryges and Phrygians by Eleonora Petrova. I would guess Riverman already knew about the overall hypothesis presented in this paper, which is why he suggested R-PF7563 could be Phrygian. I found this by researching Phrygian material culture, which even based on google images, is clearly related to matt-painted pottery. This is the right thread to post this, since the Phrygian story is that of R-PF7563.

This is true R-PF7563 is likely the sole haplogroup in most of Albania for the timeline described.

The tumuli culture of southern Albania that has been described being similar to that western Macedonia and parts of Greek Epirus seem to have been a Phrygian horizon.

Phrygian material culture connection to the Balkans is matt-painted pottery, which developed in south-eastern Albania and quickly spread to the related tribes in adjacent areas.

R-PF7563 by genealogy/lineage is a unique branch of IE.

After Bronze Age collapse, matt-painted blossomed, forming a block from southern Albania through western Macedonia and parts of Greek Epirus. The culture horizon goes into decline after 800 BC mostly as the result of Illyrian pressure and the matt-painted ware migrate into Anatolia and Apulia.

1,000 BC through 750 BC

I took the opportunity to test out R-PF7563 on the Phrygian Gordon samples. The samples are very Anatolian shifted, but I have yet to see a Balkan G25 profile do a better job or replace Cinamak I14688_R-PF7563. I tried even throwing all other Illyrians and MKD samples individually, I14688 just outperforms all. It would be nice to have Phrygian samples with less Anatolian mixture, but until we do this what G25 has to say.

 

[Omino]

I am glad modern Greeks loaded with E-V13, R1b(of Albanian and Vlach sub-clades) and Slavic haplogroups know their history better than the Greeks over 2,000 years ago. What could they have known anyway. They probably only had two genders too, proving that they did not know much.

We are also loaded with lots of Luke Skywalker's haplogroups.
Spreading absurd nonsense won't help you deal with your historical insecurities my dear

 

[peloponnesian]

I am glad modern Greeks loaded with E-V13, R1b(of Albanian and Vlach sub-clades) and Slavic haplogroups know their history better than the Greeks over 2,000 years ago. What could they have known anyway. They probably only had two genders too, proving that they did not know much.

Lol I don't give a shit about Albanian and Vlach haplogroups in modern Greeks, try a different angle

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I was not trying to hurt your feelings, just pointing your absurd current haplgroupic situation to someone who believes antiquity was a period of purity and continuity.

 

[Omino]

I was not trying to hurt your feelings, just pointing your absurd current haplgroupic situation to someone who believes antiquity was a period of purity and continuity.

Nobody's talking about purity(except you ofc). Continuity won't be rejected by hilarious claims and other nonsense but actual data backed studies.
Spreading unfounded nonsense won't either help you deal with your historical insecurities.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Hysterical barking, no idea you're rambling about but explain this:

continuity won't be debunked

Continuity of what? E-V13, R-BY611, I1, I2a-Dinaric, R1a? LOL

 

[Omino]

Hysterical barking, no idea you're rambling about but explain this:



Continuity of what? E-V13, R-BY611, I1, I2a-Dinaric, R1a? LOL

Lol your inferiority complex is astonishing.
Even in a thread about South Albanian Tumulus your obsession is to write nonsense about Greek genetics

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Lol your inferiority complex is astonishing.
Even in a thread about South Albanian Tumulus your obsession is to write nonsense about Greek genetics

Your friend brought up the topic not me. If I was obsessed with your non-hellenic haplogroups I'll would be posting in your threads. It's mostly Ghegs and Muslim Albanians that get a hard on out of Arvanites. So, why don't you kindly leave these discussions out of this thread.

 

[Omino]

Your friend brought up the topic not me. If I was obsessed with your non-hellenic haplogroups I'll would be posting in your threads. It's mostly Ghegs and Muslim Albanians that get a hard on out of Arvanites. So, why don't you kindly leave these discussions out of this thread.

If I was obsessed with your non-hellenic haplogroups I'll would be posting in your threads.

You literally wrote about Slavic and Vlach Haplogroups in a thread about south albania tumulus my dear,stop embarrassing yourself

It's mostly Ghegs and Muslim Albanians that get a hard on out of Arvanites. So, why don't you kindly leave these discussions out of this thread.v

keep your nationalistic nonsense out of the thread/forum,they won't help you deal with your historical insecurities

 

[PaleoRevenge]

You literally wrote about Slavic and Vlach Haplogroups in a thread about south albania tumulus my dear,stop embarrassing yourself

Of course I did, your boy wrote Dorian migrations are a myth, while modern Greeks are mostly made of alien haplogroups. I'm pretty sure I've embarrassed you.

keep your nationalistic nonsense out of the thread/forum,they won't help you deal with your historical insecurities

Nationalistic how? E-V13, R-BY611, R-PF7569(all known subclades so far are Albanian downstream in modern Greeks), R1a, I1,I-Y3120 are ancient Greek? If these haplogroups are not Greek is that my doing? Why are you coming at me like a crude ape?

 

[Omino]

Of course I did, your boy wrote Dorian migrations are a myth, while modern Greeks are mostly made of alien haplogroups. I'm pretty sure I've embarrassed you.

Just like 5 years old boy " he did it first so i had to copy-paste my absurd nonsense"
Your nationalist delusions are the only ones that can be embarrassed with arguments like yours

Nationalistic how? E-V13, R-BY611, R-PF7569(all known subclades so far are Albanian downstream in modern Greeks), R1a, I1,I-Y3120 are ancient Greek? If these haplogroups are not Greek is that my doing? Why are you coming at me like a crude ape?

Nobody said anything like that, it's purely your imagination.

"E-V13, R-BY611, R-PF7569(all known subclades so far are Albanian downstream in modern Greeks)"
That's by far the dumbest thing you wrote so far,especially for EV-13.

Answering your own making up stuff won't help you deal with your inferiority complex my dear clueless nationalist.

I won't waste more time answering your nonsense especially if they're hilarious like the "EV-13 an albanian downstream"

 

[Riverman]

Just like 5 years old boy " he did it first so i had to copy-paste my absurd nonsense"
Your nationalist delusions are the only ones that can be embarrassed with arguments like yours

Nobody said anything like that, it's purely your imagination.

"E-V13, R-BY611, R-PF7569(all known subclades so far are Albanian downstream in modern Greeks)"
That's by far the dumbest thing you wrote so far,especially for EV-13.

Answering your own making up stuff won't help you deal with your inferiority complex my dear clueless nationalist.

I won't waste more time answering your nonsense especially if they're hilarious like the "EV-13 an albanian downstream"

Have to agree on that one. There are a lot, really a lot, of Greek E-V13 subclades which are not typically Albanian.

 

[bigsnake49]

Have to agree on that one. There are a lot, really a lot, of Greek E-V13 subclades which are not typically Albanian.

Riverman, to your knowledge, are the EV13 subclades downstream or the same as Vlach (Aromanian) subclades? There is a theory being floated on this site that the Greek EV13 is totally due to Dacian EV13 whether in the form of Vlach tranhumants or Dacian farmers that were transplanted in Greece, particularly in Peloponnese by the Byzantine Emperor Alexios Komnenos.

 

[Riverman]

Riverman, to your knowledge, are the EV13 subclades downstream or the same as Vlach (Aromanian) subclades? There is a theory being floated on this site that the Greek EV13 is totally due to Dacian EV13 whether in the form of Vlach tranhumants or Dacian farmers that were transplanted in Greece, particularly in Peloponnese by the Byzantine Emperor Alexios Komnenos.

First off, I think that in the Bronze Age all E-V13 lineages were originally Daco-Thracian/Proto-Thracian. And even in the Early to Middle Iron Age, the majority was. But step by step, branches moved and got assimilated by other people over time.

Both Greeks, Vlachs and Romanians are not the best tested people in Europe, rather on the contrary. Albanians are well tested, so if there are Albanian lineages in other people, they usually show up and are recognisable.

The same is true for some major Vlach lineages to some degree, of which some moved and came to Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs and Albanians, but not for all. Apparently, I see a better pattern of Vlach lineages in Bulgarians in particular than in Greeks.

If we subtract both the clearly recognisable Albanian and the clearly recognisable Vlach lineages, we still have a lot of Greek lineages of which some look like they might be either very old in Greeks (Bronze to Early Iron Age), got there with Thracians in the later Greek periods, or came in from other people.

But even then, if we add those three, there are still many lineages which look different, older, independent, as of yet. This might change in the future, but I think a good portion will remain older. My best guess is that there was a trickling down of E-V13 since the Late Bronze Age, but most came since the classical era from the Thracian sphere.
The number of so far independent, older (usually Iron Age, rarely Bronze Age) and not clearly Albanian or Vlach branches e.g. under E-Z5018 and E-Z5017 on FTDNA is fairly high. Without more testing we can't say that much more.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Straw man arguments and emotional meltdowns. I was careful with my wording, I'm pretty sure I did not monopilize E-V13 to Albanians..

 

[peloponnesian]

I was not trying to hurt your feelings, just pointing your absurd current haplgroupic situation to someone who believes antiquity was a period of purity and continuity.

I didn't say anything about purity, just relative continuity in central and southern Greece from the LBA to IA, which is a fact. You probably thought I was arguing for continuity between BA Greece to modern Greece, try reading more carefully next time.

Not sure what you mean with "absurd haplogroupic situation" in modern Greece, modern Greeks are descended from the Eastern Roman Greek-speaking population (Romioi) and neighbouring Balkanic ethnic groups, nothing really surprising if you look at history and geography.

E-V13 in Greece is not exclusively Albanian, part of it comes from the Roman Greek population of Imperial period and Late Antiquity.