Genetic study South Albania Tumulus DNA samples

[PaleoRevenge]

The people from Kamenice tumulus were precursor to latter Enchelei and Taulanti Southern Illyrian tribes. Southern Illyrians were more of a people descended from Matt-Painted Pottery People with heavy Glasinac-Mat influences.

As the saying goes: It is what it is.

It's too bad other sites in southern Albania are not being sampled, we know from indirect evidence that I-M223 had to have been present as a companion to R-PF7563 in Albania.

 

[mount123]

Interesting, 24 Iron Age samples from North Macedonia. From southern Arc, there were 4-5 different populations there during Iron Age. Should expect more of the same. Hopefully the samples are from Skopje which was a melting pot of different profiles.

The best news from this is they will include 2 samples from LBA south-western Bulgaria. This reminds me of the two samples from Croatia that were published initially which were J2b, than more of the same came later. This tells me they have more samples from this region of Bulgaria and they will be pretty much the same but will be formally published in the bigger Bulgarian paper. South-western Bulgaria is a Brnjica stronghold in LBA and the likely homeland of the Paeoni, who were able to resist the LBA collapse. I made my claims that this will be source of R-BY611--->R-Y10789 parent population.

Actually had a similar thought. Those IA North Macedonian/IA East Albanian samples were like the harbingers as to what one could expect to come with regards to Z2103>CTS1450+ and PF7562>PF7563>PF7566 clades. In a similar fashion with L283 in the Northwest or V13 in IA Thrace.

I wonder if J2b-L283 shows up post 750 BCE as a companion of R-BY250.

I think so. There cannot be an Illyrian expansion devoid of the defining Illyrian male uniparental line. You have that paternal signal in Northern Albania with 4 L283 from BA to IA and three non-L283 lineages (2 Z2103, 1 PF7562) excluding the EBA M269>? sample as it's significantly older and a different archeological timeframe. By the way I never argued that an Illyrianization of these CTS1450, PF7562 never occurred just that when it was probably the case it turned out to be in alignment with additional Illyrian patrilineage signal L283.

The people from Kamenice tumulus were precursor to latter Enchelei and Taulanti Southern Illyrian tribes. Southern Illyrians were more of a people descended from Matt-Painted Pottery People with heavy Glasinac-Mat influences.

As the saying goes: It is what it is.

Maybe Sesarethians? I would really like to see results from Urakë and Taulantian Abroi territory. My pet theory or what I'm rooting for is them being PH4679. After all these aDNA results it's quite certain, IMO, that Y21045>PH4679 was probably the Southeastern most extension of Cetina-Dinaric>Glasinac-Mati. Taulantians would fit here quite nicely.

 

[Vitruvius]

You're completely clueless about Southeast European archeology hence these bold ignorant and false statements. There is plenty of academic work on the tumuli in Southeast Albania and those from Kamenicë in particular. These aren't "northern Greeks"



Take that advice for yourself lol I was pointing out what they write about the particular samples in question and they are indeed Southwest Paleo-Balkanites. The confusion lies where exactly? The North Aegean samples they're referencing are most probably the Logkas samples. So point stands, totally off topic input and irrelevant to modern mainland Greeks.

Let's see all this academic work which identifies these particular Illyrian features and disqualifies Kamenice with Greek association. I don't see much on the topic at all. The site itself seems to sit on the edge of both the Epirote and Illyrian domains.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Let's see all this academic work which identifies these particular Illyrian features and disqualifies Kamenice with Greek association. I don't see much on the topic at all. The site itself seems to sit on the edge of both the Epirote and Illyrian domains.

If you read this thread from the beginning, the topic has been discussed in detail.

The green zone is called Matt-painted culture horizon. It is not associated with Greeks/Dorics. Macedonians moved into the green zone after a series of turmoils. The green zone was not Illyrian either, but they were decimated by a Illyrian expansion, which expanded all the way to the Macedonian capital of Vergina. The Illyrian rule did not last long as they took a hard blow from Cimmerians(and their Thracian vassals). After the Cimmerian blow, Greek Macedonians expanded in the green zone and the Albanian side(of the green zone) turned into a contested land between Illyrians and Dorians.

 

[Hawk]

Brygi/Phrygians and Paeonians ancestors likely, but also the 2nd culture to influence the formation of historical Illyrians (not historical Paeonians, rather Paeonian-like people) after Glasinac-Mat complex.

Things are not so simple as someone intends to make them, it was as dynamic as it gets.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Brygi/Phrygians and Paeonians ancestors likely, but also the 2nd culture to influence the formation of historical Illyrians (not historical Paeonians, rather Paeonian-like people) after Glasinac-Mat complex.

Things are not so simple as someone intends to make them, it was as dynamic as it gets.

One sample from Skopje had unique profile: I10381_C-V86, it represents a undesignated population.
In southern Arc I did lots of runs on the Skopje samples that were low quality. There were some additional samples that had the same profile as the haplogroup C sample(I10381), one was R1b. There were also two other samples that were the same profile as I10379(Bassarabi profile). They are very low quality but the way the P-values lined up was too consistent. Hopefully the additional samples from North Macedonia clear this up.

 

[epirus1000]

If you read this thread from the beginning, the topic has been discussed in detail.

The green zone is called Matt-painted culture horizon. It is not associated with Greeks/Dorics. Macedonians moved into the green zone after a series of turmoils. The green zone was not Illyrian either, but they were decimated by a Illyrian expansion, which expanded all the way to the Macedonian capital of Vergina. The Illyrian rule did not last long as they took a hard blow from Cimmerians(and their Thracian vassals). After the Cimmerian blow, Greek Macedonians expanded in the green zone and the Albanian side(of the green zone) turned into a contested land between Illyrians and Dorians.

The green area is possibly the origin of a part of Messapian population too (Devoll pottery).

 

[mount123]

Speaking of Matt-painted ware people, this was another EAA abstract:

Trans-Adriatic Dynamics: Late Bronze to Early Iron Age Matt-Painted Pottery in the Southwestern Balkans and Southern Italy

The topic of LBA/EIA Matt-painted pottery on both sides of the Adriatic Sea has intermittently sparked discussions for some time now, resulting in several comprehensive studies examining the material from both regions. However, the subject has rarely been approached as a cohesive unit and it has been over 15 years since the last significant survey of material on the Eastern side of the Adriatic (Horejs 2007). While not all regions have provided substantial new evidence, notable discoveries have been made, particularly on the Western side of the Adriatic. The session aims to bring together experts currently researching matt-painted pottery in the broader region encompassing Southern Italy, Albania, the Republic of North Macedonia, and Greece. The goal is to discuss both old and new evidence, highlighting the continuity from approximately the 15th to 7th century BC, while also examining distinct regional variations. Additionally, the session seeks to explore potential connections between the two Adriatic coasts concerning the transfer of style, knowledge, and materials. We welcome input on new developments in technology, provenance analyses, radiocarbon dating, and contextual analysis.

Source: https://submissions.e-a-a.org/eaa2024/repository/preview.php?Session=845

 

[Dianatomia]

If you read this thread from the beginning, the topic has been discussed in detail.

The green zone is called Matt-painted culture horizon. It is not associated with Greeks/Dorics. Macedonians moved into the green zone after a series of turmoils. The green zone was not Illyrian either, but they were decimated by a Illyrian expansion, which expanded all the way to the Macedonian capital of Vergina. The Illyrian rule did not last long as they took a hard blow from Cimmerians(and their Thracian vassals). After the Cimmerian blow, Greek Macedonians expanded in the green zone and the Albanian side(of the green zone) turned into a contested land between Illyrians and Dorians.

Archaeologically, the Green zone does fall within the proto-Greek zone around the 2nd millennium b.c. Save perhaps the part north of today’s Thessaloniki, which was probably overrun by Doric tribes during their expansion during the Iron Age.

 

[epirus1000]

Archaeologically, the Green zone does fall within the proto-Greek zone around the 2nd millennium b.c. Save perhaps the part north of today’s Thessaloniki, which was probably overrun by Doric tribes during their expansion during the Iron Age.

There is no proto-greek zone 2000 BC. It starts 1500-1000 BCE, while Kamenice is much older.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

There is no proto-greek zone 2000 BC. It starts 1500-1000 BCE, while Kamenice is much older.

View attachment 15474

Mycenaeans were already in Greece at 1750BC

 

[Dianatomia]

There is no proto-greek zone 2000 BC. It starts 1500-1000 BCE, while Kamenice is much older.

View attachment 15474

Archaeologists estimate the formation of proto-Greek as early as 2200 BC. Obviously the Mycenaeans were formed later. So Kamenice, if not associated with Greek culture, should be older than that. Or the exact location was not in some parts of the green area.

 

[blevins13]

There is no proto-greek zone 2000 BC. It starts 1500-1000 BCE, while Kamenice is much older.

View attachment 15474

Not sure how many studies will take to forget this proto-Greek zone in Epirus. Hahahaha

 

[blevins13]

Archaeologists estimate the formation of proto-Greek as early as 2200 BC. Obviously the Mycenaeans were formed later. So Kamenice, if not associated with Greek culture, should be older than that. Or the exact location was not in some parts of the green area.

Sure but let's not forget that Pelops came from Anatolia, and he probably was speaking indo-europian already.

 

[Dianatomia]

Are you suggesting that they spoke some form of Greek in the South? Prior to areas such as Thessaly and Epirus?

Sure but let's not forget that Pelops came from Anatolia, and he probably was speaking indo-europian already.

 

[blevins13]

Are you suggesting that they spoke some form of Greek in the South? Prior to areas such as Thessaly and Epirus?

 

[blevins13]

Has always been an option, from the very beginning.

 

[Dianatomia]

Has always been an option, from the very beginning.

But the Eastern model does not entail that they were island hoppers. More likely they crossed the Bosporus. Which means they came from the North into Southern Greece.

 

[blevins13]

But the Eastern model does not entail that they were island hoppers. More likely they crossed the Bosporus. Which means they came from the North into Southern Greece.

There is no reference that Pelops before coming to Peloponnesus stayed in Epirus

 

[Dianatomia]

There is no reference that Pelops before coming to Peloponnesus stayed in Epirus

-In the EBA we notice a population in Greece without steppe admixture.
-In the MBA we see that there is some Steppe admixture in mainland Greece (Lazaridis).
-We also notice that in the MBA there is considerably more Steppe admixture in Thessaly. (Logkas specimens)
-Next, we notice that, at least in Southern part of the mainland, the Steppe admixture is gradually increasing going into the LBA.(Skourtanioti)

Where do you suppose Steppe admixture came from? Which people spoke an IE language?
The EBA population from Anatolia? Based on historical records we know that in the Greek peninsula Greek was replacing pre-Greek languages until the Iron Age.