Genetic study South Albania Tumulus DNA samples

[TaktikatEMalet]

Until we find some ancient v13 we can only speculate how it spread so massively, what we do already know is it had absolutely nothing to do with Minoans and Mycenaeans as we have had plenty of ydna from there. It definitely went to Greece during or after Dark Ages. Earliest possibility is Dorian's, who were likely ancestral to Epirotes and Ancient Macedonians. Maybe we will find V13 pop up in these but it looks like they were usually cremating

 

[PaleoRevenge]

This was posted in the anthrogenica successor forum.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1702947450997100853

The north Aegean sample they were referring to is Logkas (which I correctly suggested, see earlier posts). R-PF7563 is the dominant haplogroup in Bronze age and early EIA. And it has zero representation after 750 BCE. The single R-Z2103 in BA is likely of different branch than what the Illyrians of Vatin-variant ancestry(Dardani) brought in 750 BCE.

If you zoom in on the slde, I am certain the largest read for R1b-Z2103 in there is R1b1a1b1b3a1a1b, which google is translating as R-BY250. This is less than 0.5% in modern Albanians. In anthrogenica, replying to the Takittakemalet/Karagjozi, I am certain I told him the R-Z2103 will correspond to the minor dead-end branches in rrenjet, which is RBY250.
I am making superior reads and predictions than rrenjets admins who have access to classified data(cheat codes), but they don't have access to superior intellect.


BTW According to the slide in the bottom right, an additional 200 samples are at MPI, I think that means in analysis, so in addition to the 25 of the preview, there will be 200 more samples, I don't think they will change the pciture much, R-PF7563 will likely reappear after 600 BCE, after Illyrians were overthrown. Hammond thought the Chaonians took over briefly around this time(600 to 500 BCE). Curious to see if J2a will show up for this period, though I recall they used Kuc i zi, not Kamenice. Interesting leak nevertheless.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Post 750 BC there is R1b1a1b1b3a1a1b (R-BY250) and R1b1a1b1b3a1a1b~(R-BY251)(last sample on the slide). This strongly suggests Glasinac Dardanians were R-BY250, maybe some J2b-L283 were present as well, but the core of the tribe was R-BY250.

 

[epirus1000]

"Kamenice samples cluster on PCA closely with BA samples of South Croatia, Montenegro, N. Macedonia and Albania"
"Little shift from Kamenice to modern Albanians"
"FITS WITHIN GENETIC CONTINUITY OVER 2000 YEARS FROM NORTHERN AEGEAN TO EASTERN ADRIATIC"

So, proto-south Illyrians, proto-Macedonians and proto-Epirote, same groups, that are found now in modern Albanians.

Great study!!

 

[broder]

Post 750 BC there is R1b1a1b1b3a1a1b (R-BY250) and R1b1a1b1b3a1a1b~(R-BY251)(last sample on the slide). This strongly suggests Glasinac Dardanians were R-BY250, maybe some J2b-L283 were present as well, but the core of the tribe was R-BY250.

Relax bro. Don’t forget the Cinamak CTS1450 sample that’s BY251-

There is some crazy Z2103 diversity from what we are seeing

Here where I keep track of all the M269 in the Balkans: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1BLhnG7WM2MBceCLPba-4d2wlcJyNcHw

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Relax bro. Don’t forget the Cinamak CTS1450 sample that’s BY251-

There is some crazy Z2103 diversity from what we are seeing

Here where I keep track of all the M269 in the Balkans: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1BLhnG7WM2MBceCLPba-4d2wlcJyNcHw

That agrees with what I said over month ago. All these are the Dardani, it is what I claimed, that the MKD and Cinamak R-CTS1450 are the same people who invaded in 750 BC. BUT, some samples we have a deeper SNP reading, they are all R-BY250 and whatever further branching there might be.

Genetic study - South Albania Tumulus DNA samples

R1b-Z2103 was all over Balkans in Early Bronze Age, the point being we don't know where the specific Albanian subclade was. Hell, i am sure Early Cardials from Northern Epirus and Southern Albania must include E-L618, but the E-V13 story so far looks far away from Albania. In conclusion, i see...

www.eupedia.com

BTW R-PF7563 is clearly Phrygian, and they are getting gaslight even by the remnants of their seed like gjergj who cucks against his ancestors.

 

[epirus1000]

Post 750 BC there is R1b1a1b1b3a1a1b (R-BY250) and R1b1a1b1b3a1a1b~(R-BY251)(last sample on the slide). This strongly suggests Glasinac Dardanians were R-BY250, maybe some J2b-L283 were present as well, but the core of the tribe was R-BY250.

Its still too early to analyze the specific subclades. There will be 200 individuals in the final study, and the conclusions of the last abstract are based on the full sample.
The researchers have made their conclusions and they have the final say.
We are reading their conclusions and let's hope there will be other similar studies to refine the conclusions.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Its still too early to analyze the specific subclades. There will be 200 individuals in the final study, and the conclusions of the last abstract are based on the full sample.
The researchers have made their conclusions and they have the final say.
We are reading their conclusions and let's hope there will be other similar studies to refine the conclusions.

We will see when the raw data is out. There is zero chance I am wrong. I was the first to come to the conclusion that R-PF7563 was dominant in south Albania during BA, I brought it up at anthrogenica where rrenjet admins attacked me, insisting the Barc sample was mdv, instead of thanking me. I did this analysis when I just started using G25 and did not even know what R-PF7563 really was, I've come long ways since then and am way more adept at these matters. The R-Z2103 in Kamenica has no continuity with modern Albanians, unless you think less than 0.5% is continuity. It depends how one wants to interpret the data I suppose, does one dig in, or just superficially call it continuity.

What the authors did, is no different than the statement they made about Logkas clustering like modern Greeks. The same lazy and likely on purpose false analysis. Current clustering has nothing to do with it. In fact we cluster closer to west Bassarabi samples, who too are near these Kamenica ones, but the internal component are different between the two.

In Anthrogenica, there was an endless criticism of the studies getting published, pretty much everyone was questioning the conclusions from the Polish study about alleged Slavic continuity(this is the most recent example that comes to mind). One member even made a sarcastic remark about us hobbyist having better tools than the experts. This is really one of the real reasons Anthrogenica shut down, the marxists "experts" did not like their work being peer reviewed by the public. Anthrogenica was a forum where researchers also participated, and networked with admins of various projects like rrenjet and serbian one. That's why there was a lot of favoritism in the way they ran the place, it did not matter how much one added value to their forum, like Riverman was exposed to constant crude replies full of malice.

One of rrenjet admins had multiple sock accounts. Brum sterr i zi, excine(hasangejaj), strabio, same person. Who knows what other accounts he had for the purpose to upvote himself. If I could figure it out, I am sure others could to, but he never got banned.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Relax bro. Don’t forget the Cinamak CTS1450 sample that’s BY251-

There is some crazy Z2103 diversity from what we are seeing

Here where I keep track of all the M269 in the Balkans: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1BLhnG7WM2MBceCLPba-4d2wlcJyNcHw

Nice map. Great idea.

btw Barc sample is not really mdv, just saying.

 

[broder]

Nice map. Great idea.

btw Barc sample is not really mdv, just saying.

He was radiocarbon dated, so the date should be accurate. However, he is a super low quality sample so probably that’s why it behaves oddly. I don’t think samples of that quality should be used for autosomal analysis. I was even thinking of removing it from that map because he only has one call each on PF6576 and PF7563.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

He was radiocarbon dated, so the date should be accurate. However, he is a super low quality sample so probably that’s why it behaves oddly. I don’t think samples of that quality should be used for autosomal analysis. I was even thinking of removing it from that map because he only has one call each on PF6576 and PF7563.

That means nothing, because in the end it is a read of what was carbonated. There is no guarantee the sample dated and the sample dna was extracted are the same, unless you personally saw it, or God prevents frauds or mistakes. There are also chemical reasons there can be misreads. But his coverage is solid. He is LBA, probably 1,600 BC, he correctly shares proximity with other PF7563 and the MKD Ohrid group. He even has some heavy Cetina admixture and still plots a good distance away from them.
To ignore his LBA profile and the fact that he is found in a tumulus only some kilometers from Kamenica where other LBA PF7563 are now buried is just plain negligence or childish wish that this profile survived in late mdv like some prehistoric human frozen cryogenically to resurrect in the future.

I also think you might want to rearrange the colors, all our chronological R-Z2103 branches should range from deep red to light orange, no yellows, to represent one tree trunk.

 

[epirus1000]

We will see when the raw data is out. There is zero chance I am wrong. I was the first to come to the conclusion that R-PF7563 was dominant in south Albania during BA, I brought it up at anthrogenica where rrenjet admins attacked me, insisting the Barc sample was mdv, instead of thanking me. I did this analysis when I just started using G25 and did not even know what R-PF7563 really was, I've come long ways since then and am way more adept at these matters. The R-Z2103 in Kamenica has no continuity with modern Albanians, unless you think less than 0.5% is continuity. It depends how one wants to interpret the data I suppose, does one dig in, or just superficially call it continuity.

What the authors did, is no different than the statement they made about Logkas clustering like modern Greeks. The same lazy and likely on purpose false analysis. Current clustering has nothing to do with it. In fact we cluster closer to west Bassarabi samples, who too are near these Kamenica ones, but the internal component are different between the two.

Let's focus on the paper!
R-Z2103 is not the only subclade that is present in the Kamenice Tumulus.

The main advantage of this study is that we will know the composition of the biggest tumulus in Albania, having around 600-700 individuals. Every other study of the region will compare their results to these 200 analyzed individuals/skeletons.

I suppose with the other subclades, it will be 10-15% of the modern Albanians related to this specific tumulus. Adding results from Velika Gruda, Cinamake and other future studies, a larger part of the modern Albanian population will be linked to the Paleo-Balkans population, Bronze Age and Iron Age eras. Basically, the modern population of Albania has the best chances and probabilities to be better linked with the Paleo-Balkans populations. There is no debate over this! Point-blank!!!

On the other side, we do not expect that the Northern Greece area of antiquity will be available for genetic studies. All in all, we should hope that findings in other tumulus in Albania could be available for other similar studies, especially Lofkend, and Apollonia, to have a better framework of the coast areas of Albania.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Let's focus on the paper!
R-Z2103 is not the only subclade that is present in the Kamenice Tumulus.

The main advantage of this study is that we will know the composition of the biggest tumulus in Albania, having around 600-700 individuals. Every other study of the region will compare their results to these 200 analyzed individuals/skeletons.

I suppose with the other subclades, it will be 10-15% of the modern Albanians related to this specific tumulus. Adding results from Velika Gruda, Cinamake and other future studies, a larger part of the modern Albanian population will be linked to the Paleo-Balkans population, Bronze Age and Iron Age eras. Basically, the modern population of Albania has the best chances and probabilities to be better linked with the Paleo-Balkans populations. There is no debate over this! Point-blank!!!

On the other side, we do not expect that the Northern Greece area of antiquity will be available for genetic studies. All in all, we should hope that findings in other tumulus in Albania could be available for other similar studies, especially Lofkend, and Apollonia, to have a better framework of the coast areas of Albania.

I explained it to you previously, R-Z2103 in Kamenica are ultimately R-BY250, not even 0.5% in modern Albanians, go to rrenjet statistics page and grab a calculator, there is about 10 or so such clades in modern Albanians. We are talking about 0.2%, here, LOL. I get the impression in your dumbed down understanding all R1b is Illyrian, Epirotian, Macedonian, gorillian, emperor, uga booga. Maybe Ireland is Illyrian too, because R1b is R1b.

The other R1b clade in Kamenica is R-PF7563, and it is ultimately Phrygian. The Kamenica clades will represent about 1-2% of modern Albanians, there is another Phrygian cluster in Mati-Dibra region, they too are part of the BA layer of Albania and represent another 1-2%. The remaining R-PF7563 according to rrenjet are from the east. And they are remnants of Bubanj-Hum EBA culture, they ended up with Paeonians on the Serbian-Bulgarian-Macedonian border region and actually came with the early Albanians into Albania.
You should read what the rrenjet representive wrote about R-PF7563 in Kamenica, they think it belongs to this Italian branch:

R-V3286 YTree

www.yfull.com

This supports what I said, Messapi came from south Albania, and has nothing to do with Japodian/Japanese Illyrians. IE they were expelled from south Albania, a good portion of them left forever.

Phrygians are R-PF7563 dominated, this will be verified when we get samples from western Greek Macedonia and parts of Greek Epirus. Macedonians and Epirots, the real ones, will be J2a and G2a, with some R-PF7563, some branches might even be unique to them and some just assimilated Bryges.

Illyrians are J2b-L283 with the exception of R-BY250 which became Illyrian during MBA(culture Vatin-variant, west Serbia, eastern Bosnia).
Albanian R-BY611 all fall under R-Y23373, which will be found among Paeonians, especially Struma river valley. They decent from Brnjica culture who should be R-BY611, who descend from Vatin culture. Vatin must have head more than one branch of R-Z2103, the one that joined Illyrians is R-BY250. I am sure all this is very confusing to you.

 

[epirus1000]

I explained it to you previously, R-Z2103 in Kamenica are ultimately R-BY250, not even 0.5% in modern Albanians, go to rrenjet statistics page and grab a calculator, there is about 10 or so such clades in modern Albanians. We are talking about 0.2%, here, LOL. I get the impression in your dumbed down understanding all R1b is Illyrian, Epirotian, Macedonian, gorillian, emperor, uga booga. Maybe Ireland is Illyrian too, because R1b is R1b.

The other R1b clade in Kamenica is R-PF7563, and it is ultimately Phrygian. The Kamenica clades will represent about 1-2% of modern Albanians, there is another Phrygian cluster in Mati-Dibra region, they too are part of the BA layer of Albania and represent another 1-2%. The remaining R-PF7563 according to rrenjet are from the east. And they are remnants of Bubanj-Hum EBA culture, they ended up with Paeonians on the Serbian-Bulgarian-Macedonian border region and actually came with the early Albanians into Albania.
You should read what the rrenjet representive wrote about R-PF7563 in Kamenica, they think it belongs to this Italian branch:

R-V3286 YTree

www.yfull.com

This supports what I said, Messapi came from south Albania, and has nothing to do with Japodian/Japanese Illyrians. IE they were expelled from south Albania, a good portion of them left forever.

Phrygians are R-PF7563 dominated, this will be verified when we get samples from western Greek Macedonia and parts of Greek Epirus. Macedonians and Epirots, the real ones, will be J2a and G2a, with some R-PF7563, some branches might even be unique to them and some just assimilated Bryges.

Illyrians are J2b-L283 with the exception of R-BY250 which became Illyrian during MBA(culture Vatin-variant, west Serbia, eastern Bosnia).
Albanian R-BY611 all fall under R-Y23373, which will be found among Paeonians, especially Struma river valley. They decent from Brnjica culture who should be R-BY611, who descend from Vatin culture. Vatin must have head more than one branch of R-Z2103, the one that joined Illyrians is R-BY250. I am sure all this is very confusing to you.

I don't see why the personal animosity!

We have the abstract and the poster of a huge study, which has presented only 12% of its sample! The researchers presented their main findings and conclusions.
One the other side you make your conclusions not based on the DNA studies.
We have not seen studies of Macedonians and Epirots, "the real ones", and it will be hard to see. Nevertheless, it is just a wishful thinking the hope to find J2a and G2a there, as if true, it would be fully presented in many respectful studies.
We have no information on that! We just understand that the fact that Ancient Macedonia and Epirus are not included in such studies, it could mean that the results are not close to J2a and G2a. What are the possible haplogroups of Ancient Macedonia and Epirus? We know that they are not the main greek modern haplogroups... The box of Pandora should remain closed!

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I don't see why the personal animosity!

We have the abstract and the poster of a huge study, which has presented only 12% of its sample! The researchers presented their main findings and conclusions.
One the other side you make your conclusions not based on the DNA studies.
We have not seen studies of Macedonians and Epirots, "the real ones", and it will be hard to see. Nevertheless, it is just a wishful thinking the hope to find J2a and G2a there, as if true, it would be fully presented in many respectful studies.
We have no information on that! We just understand that the fact that Ancient Macedonia and Epirus are not included in such studies, it could mean that the results are not close to J2a and G2a. What are the possible haplogroups of Ancient Macedonia and Epirus? We know that they are not the main greek modern haplogroups... The box of Pandora should remain closed!

Because you make declaration statements, case closed, game over. If you want debate, let's debate.
From the Kamenica samples R-PF7563 only makes up 1-2% among south Albanians, and 0.1-0.2% for R-BY250. If you want to rests on hope that the rest of the samples will change this, go ahead, but from experience I and many others have seen this play out over and over. From one J2b in Dalmatia to now over 30, from one E-V13 in Thrace to now 10.

The larger sample might make things worse(for you), as there might be a J2b-L283 minority with these R-BY250 invaders, making it obvious beyond doubt who these people were.
We have a sample from north Macedonia that is G2a with similar profile to R-PF7563. We have the J2a folks from lake Ohrid who were buried with the Macedonian golden masks, and there is the current J2a enclave of Himara. The J2a of Himara are basically the Greek version of J2b-L283 of northern Albania. If you approach things with a detective mindset you'll arrive at similar conclusions.
In the future we will eventually get samples from Kosovo, I can easily guess the Glasinac samples(R-BY250 and some J2b-L283). While Balevac group which are related to Triballi will be E-V13.

We do have a sneak peak of the profiles we will get from Kamenica.

The two J2b are from Veliki Vanik, using the same location as the author did in their poster. The R-CTS1450 are Illyrian profiles, one from Cinamak, one from south east North Macedonia. They will prove to be the as same as the Kamenica R-BY250 once the raw data becomes available. You can see they cluster closer to Croatia BA J2b-L283 samples.

The R-PF7563 have their own cluster with similar profile to MKD G2a. While MKD G2a is an actual Macedonian, the R-PF7563 are Bryges and cluster closer to MBA Logkas compared to R-CTS1450 Illyrians.

 

[broder]

That means nothing, because in the end it is a read of what was carbonated. There is no guarantee the sample dated and the sample dna was extracted are the same, unless you personally saw it, or God prevents frauds or mistakes. There are also chemical reasons there can be misreads. But his coverage is solid. He is LBA, probably 1,600 BC, he correctly shares proximity with other PF7563 and the MKD Ohrid group. He even has some heavy Cetina admixture and still plots a good distance away from them.
To ignore his LBA profile and the fact that he is found in a tumulus only some kilometers from Kamenica where other LBA PF7563 are now buried is just plain negligence or childish wish that this profile survived in late mdv like some prehistoric human frozen cryogenically to resurrect in the future.

I also think you might want to rearrange the colors, all our chronological R-Z2103 branches should range from deep red to light orange, no yellows, to represent one tree trunk.

As far as I am concerned that sample is useless.

I want to keep it simple:
Z2103 - yellow
L51 - blue
PF7563 - green
M269 that couldn't be read any further - red

 

[PaleoRevenge]

As far as I am concerned that sample is useless.

I want to keep it simple:
Z2103 - yellow
L51 - blue
PF7563 - green
M269 that couldn't be read any further - red

I think visually you can have them colored where one can see the movement of R-Z2103 as it mutates, and that can only be done by keeping a color range that's similar. Anything that's not R-Z2103 related should have opposite colors, the reason you made the map in the first place is to keep track of R-BY611 journey. It's a free suggestion, I'm not charging anything.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

This was posted in the anthrogenica successor forum.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1702947450997100853

The north Aegean sample they were referring to is Logkas (which I correctly suggested, see earlier posts). R-PF7563 is the dominant haplogroup in Bronze age and early EIA. And it has zero representation after 750 BCE. The single R-Z2103 in BA is likely of different branch than what the Illyrians of Vatin-variant ancestry(Dardani) brought in 750 BCE.

If you zoom in on the slde, I am certain the largest read for R1b-Z2103 in there is R1b1a1b1b3a1a1b, which google is translating as R-BY250. This is less than 0.5% in modern Albanians. In anthrogenica, replying to the Takittakemalet/Karagjozi, I am certain I told him the R-Z2103 will correspond to the minor dead-end branches in rrenjet, which is RBY250.
I am making superior reads and predictions than rrenjets admins who have access to classified data(cheat codes), but they don't have access to superior intellect.


BTW According to the slide in the bottom right, an additional 200 samples are at MPI, I think that means in analysis, so in addition to the 25 of the preview, there will be 200 more samples, I don't think they will change the pciture much, R-PF7563 will likely reappear after 600 BCE, after Illyrians were overthrown. Hammond thought the Chaonians took over briefly around this time(600 to 500 BCE). Curious to see if J2a will show up for this period, though I recall they used Kuc i zi, not Kamenice. Interesting leak nevertheless.

?? I don't use anthrogenica, misspelled me as well

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

View attachment 14195


"Kamenice samples cluster on PCA closely with BA samples of South Croatia, Montenegro, N. Macedonia and Albania"
"Little shift from Kamenice to modern Albanians"
"FITS WITHIN GENETIC CONTINUITY OVER 2000 YEARS FROM NORTHERN AEGEAN TO EASTERN ADRIATIC"

So, proto-south Illyrians, proto-Macedonians and proto-Epirote, same groups, that are found now in modern Albanians.

Great study!!

What do you mean? We are seeing again that Illyrians are only j2b l283

Epirotes & ancient Macedonians formed after illyrians and had different ydna and I think were ancestral to proto albanians

 

[PaleoRevenge]

There are two BA R-PF7563 cluster's in Albania, one that has origins in northern Albania and one in southern Albania.

The southern cluster is undoubtedly related to the Kamenica, matt-painted culture. There is also a northern cluster that is also pre-Illyrian and has it's origins in the Bronze Age. At what point Illyrians fully overcame the northern R-PF7563 block, is unknown until we get good sample coverage from MBA through EIA for northern Albania.
In modern Albanians, the northern cluster is part of Kruja-Komani heritage, a companion clade to J2b-l283. Rrenjet calls this Dibra-Mati cluster.