Genetic study South Albania Tumulus DNA samples

[PaleoRevenge]

Let's revisit this old leak.

The second batch gjergj mentioned has to be the Kamenica samples, which at the time was only a small sample size of 25. That begs the question about the other samples close to a 100, and there must have been even more samples since 2022, the comment is over two years old. We know from the Kamenica poster, over 225 samples will be coming from Kamenica site alone. It is safe to match that number of samples that must have been extracted from other sites. Chances are extremely high Kruja-komani samples have been collected and processed.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

There are two BA R-PF7563 cluster's in Albania, one that has origins in northern Albania and one in southern Albania.

The southern cluster is undoubtedly related to the Kamenica, matt-painted culture. There is also a northern cluster that is also pre-Illyrian and has it's origins in the Bronze Age. At what point Illyrians fully overcame the northern R-PF7563 block, is unknown until we get good sample coverage from MBA through EIA for northern Albania.
In modern Albanians, the northern cluster is part of Kruja-Komani heritage, a companion clade to J2b-l283. Rrenjet calls this Dibra-Mati cluster.

They are both founder effects that split with gheg and tosk during Roman empire. Ultimately the origin is ancient greek, either mycenaean or dorian

 

[Hawk]

@PaleoRevenge, so you think South Illyrians were mainly R1b-PF7562 and R1b-Z2103 with J2b2-L283 to their north.

What happened to them? They were reduced in numbers during Early Middle Ages just before and during Slavic migrations then, and on top of it afterwards we see E-V13 migrations from somewhere in Central Balkans.

 

[eupator]

Any L584s in the Z2103s?

 

[PaleoRevenge]

@PaleoRevenge, so you think South Illyrians were mainly R1b-PF7562 and R1b-Z2103 with J2b2-L283 to their north.

What happened to them? They were reduced in numbers during Early Middle Ages just before and during Slavic migrations then, and on top of it afterwards we see E-V13 migrations from somewhere in Central Balkans.

We don't have a good picture right now. Personally I would like to see samples from the smaller sites, because the less prestigious sites likely contain haplogroups of the lesser tribes like the Balkan BA derived I2 that was found in Apulia. It depends what you call southern Illyria, the Korce plain changed hand many times after Brygian collapse.
J2b-L283 was likely involved too in the expansion into southern Albania, but the bulk of the group had to have been R1B-Z2103. That Greek guy in Facebook who is J2b of the Vlach branch, probably goes back to this expansion in southern Albania. The brother branch of the Vlach one is in Mirdita.

I've seen Hammond connect these new burials in Kuc i Zi with Chaonians, who too only briefly held the area. The area seems to have become more of a vassal buffer zone later on.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Any L584s in the Z2103s?

From the twitter leak, none. The single R1b-Z2103 in BA is at least R1b-Z2106. And he is likely the same branch as the Ulanci BA Macedonia one.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

@PaleoRevenge, so you think South Illyrians were mainly R1b-PF7562 and R1b-Z2103 with J2b2-L283 to their north.

What happened to them? They were reduced in numbers during Early Middle Ages just before and during Slavic migrations then, and on top of it afterwards we see E-V13 migrations from somewhere in Central Balkans.

Eupator's question got me thinking. Huban was certain some Brnjica people migrated into south Albania Kuc i Zi culture block. That singe Bronze Age R-Z2103 might be a Brnjica branch (BY611) and we might indirectly get a prelude to their profile, though they might be mixed in Kamenice.
And the candidates for these side branches of BY611 would be these Italians.

R-Y30192 YTree

www.yfull.com

We might get an answer to this after the 225+ samples are processed.

 

[epirus1000]

They are both founder effects that split with gheg and tosk during Roman empire. Ultimately the origin is ancient greek, either mycenaean or dorian

Dorians and Myceneans were not going North!

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Dorians and Myceneans were not going North!

It ended up in Albanians at some point, it is likely that epirotes or ancient Macedonians would have had some pf7563

 

[PaleoRevenge]

In order to test this hypothesis high coverage aDNA samples are needed to confirm downstream clades beyond R1b-Z2103 or CTS1450 level or any other major clade of Z2103.

I favor a local Bronze Age origin but that is just my opinion I am emphasizing. I think there are good points speaking in favor of this. Deviates a lot from your proposal that I don't agree with, other than that, too, totally valid.

In the recent paper, there is one R-BY250 from Dalmatia

The appearance of R-BY250 in Kamenica, after 750 BC corresponds with Glasinac material culture and cannot be a coincidence. The new new sample agrees with what I suggested, R-BY250 being Illyrian, just not as common as J2b-L283. I maintain my original proposal, R-BY250 moves into J2b-L283 zone during MBA by the migration of Vatin(R-CTS1450) into the Drina river area forming the Vatin-variant culture and eventually fully assimilated into Illyrian and partook in Glasinac expansions. It should be more common inland among Illyrians.

Vatin itself must have had R-BY611 during it's late declining stage (1,700 BC), they migrated into Morava river valley forming Brnjica culture, and are the ancestors of the Paeoni.

----

 

[mount123]

EAA 2024 abstracts:

Situated in southeastern Albania at the interface of the Aegean and the Adriatic, the Tumulus of Kamenice was used for inhumations from 1600 to 500 BCE. In order to understand societal transformations in Kamenice and its regional context, we generated genome-wide SNP data for 204 individuals from Kamenice that span the full-time transect, 24 individuals from Iron Age North Macedonia, and 2 individuals from Late Bronze Age southwestern Bulgaria. Our comprehensive dataset provides first insights into genetic continuities and changes of Late Bronze Age and Iron Age Albania as well as biological relatedness and demography of a single tumulus. Furthermore, we could compare the spread of cultural elements from central Europe and southern Aegean with genetic pattern and kinship practice. We identified a genetically homogeneous population throughout the respective time in contrast to all societal transformations in the wider region. Our results indicate that populations from Albania, the northern Aegean and Dalmatia form a joint cluster along Adriatic east coast, which could be differentiated from both the southern Aegean and further inland Balkan. We also reconstruct a regional kinship network of Kamenice extending more than 250 kilometers by identifying biological relatedness up to 10th degree. By comparing the genetic profile and kinship network we could learn more about the mobility and connectivity on both supra-regional and micro-regional scales. Moreover, we found evidence for not only a patrilineal society, but also a local population bottleneck event around 750 BCE for the first time in this region, adding another layer regarding human mobility.

 

[Omino]

EAA 2024 abstracts:

Situated in southeastern Albania at the interface of the Aegean and the Adriatic, the Tumulus of Kamenice was used for inhumations from 1600 to 500 BCE. In order to understand societal transformations in Kamenice and its regional context, we generated genome-wide SNP data for 204 individuals from Kamenice that span the full-time transect, 24 individuals from Iron Age North Macedonia, and 2 individuals from Late Bronze Age southwestern Bulgaria. Our comprehensive dataset provides first insights into genetic continuities and changes of Late Bronze Age and Iron Age Albania as well as biological relatedness and demography of a single tumulus. Furthermore, we could compare the spread of cultural elements from central Europe and southern Aegean with genetic pattern and kinship practice. We identified a genetically homogeneous population throughout the respective time in contrast to all societal transformations in the wider region. Our results indicate that populations from Albania, the northern Aegean and Dalmatia form a joint cluster along Adriatic east coast, which could be differentiated from both the southern Aegean and further inland Balkan. We also reconstruct a regional kinship network of Kamenice extending more than 250 kilometers by identifying biological relatedness up to 10th degree. By comparing the genetic profile and kinship network we could learn more about the mobility and connectivity on both supra-regional and micro-regional scales. Moreover, we found evidence for not only a patrilineal society, but also a local population bottleneck event around 750 BCE for the first time in this region, adding another layer regarding human mobility.

@Vitruvius the cline between Greek mainlanders and islanders

 

[mount123]

@Vitruvius the cline between Greek mainlanders and islanders

Buddy, these are non-Greek Paleo-Balkanites they're talking about. Modern state borders don't equal those of prehistory in the region. Preliminary results of some of their uniparental distribution aswell as auDNA clearly refute some ancient Greek connection. So does archeology of the tumuli in question. These are South-West Paleo-Balkan folks.

 

[Omino]

Buddy, these are non-Greek Paleo-Balkanites they're talking about. Modern state borders don't equal those of prehistory in the region. Preliminary results of some of their uniparental distribution aswell as auDNA clearly refute some ancient Greek connection. So does archeology of the tumuli in question. These are South-West Paleo-Balkan folks.

Imagine that you actually read the paper especially the "North Aegean part" and understand what mainlander means.
The last time i checked a map north Aegean is not Southwest Balkans

 

[Vitruvius]

@Vitruvius the cline between Greek mainlanders and islanders

Imagine that you actually read the paper especially the "North Aegean part" and understand what mainlander means.
The last time i checked a map north Aegean is not Southwest Balkans

Buddy, these are non-Greek Paleo-Balkanites they're talking about. Modern state borders don't equal those of prehistory in the region. Preliminary results of some of their uniparental distribution aswell as auDNA clearly refute some ancient Greek connection. So does archeology of the tumuli in question. These are South-West Paleo-Balkan folks.

Kamenice is part of Epirus if I'm not mistaken, so these should be our first northern Greeks. The abstract very clearly differentiates them from Aegean profiles we see in the peloponnesian world. I'll wait for the study itself but it looks like this confirms what we've been saying about a steppe heavy N. Greek genetic profile. I'd also like to know exactly where these "north aegean" samples are coming from because Albania, FYROM and Bulgaria do not fit the bill for that kind of geography.

 

[Johane Derite]

Vitruvius are you claiming Epirotes were Illyrians?

"Kamenice samples cluster on PCA closely to contemporaneous BA samples from Southern Croatia, Montenegro, North Macedonia and Albania"

 

[Vitruvius]

Vitruvius are you claiming Epirotes were Illyrians?

"Kamenice samples cluster on PCA closely to contemporaneous BA samples from Southern Croatia, Montenegro, North Macedonia and Albania"

No, of course not. I specifically stated they were Greeks. How did you get Illyrians out of my post?

Kamenice is part of Epirus if I'm not mistaken, so these should be our first northern Greeks.

Thanks for posting the image. It looks like they're probably using Logkas as what they define as "northern aegean" which is reasonable and makes sense. From what I can see PCA has them looking exactly the same as where Paeonians plot - overtop of north-central Italians and Greek Mainlanders. They definintely look more northern than the Mycenaean average.

 

[mount123]

Kamenice is part of Epirus if I'm not mistaken, so these should be our first northern Greeks. The abstract very clearly differentiates them from Aegean profiles we see in the peloponnesian world. I'll wait for the study itself but it looks like this confirms what we've been saying about a steppe heavy N. Greek genetic profile. I'd also like to know exactly where these "north aegean" samples are coming from because Albania, FYROM and Bulgaria do not fit the bill for that kind of geography.

You're completely clueless about Southeast European archeology hence these bold ignorant and false statements. There is plenty of academic work on the tumuli in Southeast Albania and those from Kamenicë in particular. These aren't "northern Greeks"

Modern state borders don't equal those of prehistory in the region. Preliminary results of some of their uniparental distribution aswell as auDNA clearly refute some ancient Greek connection. So does archeology of the tumuli in question. These are South-West Paleo-Balkan folks.

Imagine that you actually read the paper especially the "North Aegean part" and understand what mainlander means.
The last time i checked a map north Aegean is not Southwest Balkans

Take that advice for yourself lol I was pointing out what they write about the particular samples in question and they are indeed Southwest Paleo-Balkanites. The confusion lies where exactly? The North Aegean samples they're referencing are most probably the Logkas samples. So point stands, totally off topic input and irrelevant to modern mainland Greeks.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

EAA 2024 abstracts:

Situated in southeastern Albania at the interface of the Aegean and the Adriatic, the Tumulus of Kamenice was used for inhumations from 1600 to 500 BCE. In order to understand societal transformations in Kamenice and its regional context, we generated genome-wide SNP data for 204 individuals from Kamenice that span the full-time transect, 24 individuals from Iron Age North Macedonia, and 2 individuals from Late Bronze Age southwestern Bulgaria. Our comprehensive dataset provides first insights into genetic continuities and changes of Late Bronze Age and Iron Age Albania as well as biological relatedness and demography of a single tumulus. Furthermore, we could compare the spread of cultural elements from central Europe and southern Aegean with genetic pattern and kinship practice. We identified a genetically homogeneous population throughout the respective time in contrast to all societal transformations in the wider region. Our results indicate that populations from Albania, the northern Aegean and Dalmatia form a joint cluster along Adriatic east coast, which could be differentiated from both the southern Aegean and further inland Balkan. We also reconstruct a regional kinship network of Kamenice extending more than 250 kilometers by identifying biological relatedness up to 10th degree. By comparing the genetic profile and kinship network we could learn more about the mobility and connectivity on both supra-regional and micro-regional scales. Moreover, we found evidence for not only a patrilineal society, but also a local population bottleneck event around 750 BCE for the first time in this region, adding another layer regarding human mobility.

Interesting, 24 Iron Age samples from North Macedonia. From southern Arc, there were 4-5 different populations there during Iron Age. Should expect more of the same. Hopefully the samples are from Skopje which was a melting pot of different profiles.

The best news from this is they will include 2 samples from LBA south-western Bulgaria. This reminds me of the two samples from Croatia that were published initially which were J2b, than more of the same came later. This tells me they have more samples from this region of Bulgaria and they will be pretty much the same but will be formally published in the bigger Bulgarian paper. South-western Bulgaria is a Brnjica stronghold in LBA and the likely homeland of the Paeoni, who were able to resist the LBA collapse. I made my claims that this will be source of R-BY611--->R-Y10789 parent population.

I wonder if J2b-L283 shows up post 750 BCE as a companion of R-BY250.

 

[Hawk]

The people from Kamenice tumulus were precursor to latter Enchelei and Taulanti Southern Illyrian tribes. Southern Illyrians were more of a people descended from Matt-Painted Pottery People with heavy Glasinac-Mat influences.

As the saying goes: It is what it is.