Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age

It's a bit odd that the names of the BAMs correspond to the codes of other samples. I wonder if the list above is fully correct ..


I found no results for most samples if I follow the file (If I follow the names, these are female or not in the list). The ones that have result (between brackets the name of the BAM, which is probably the real sample):


R3481 (11117): J-Z35779
R3906 (6730): I-41633
R3931 (10626): R-BY20283
R6701 (11713): J-Y15913
R6730 (10636): I-A11380
R6750 (3931): E-V13
R6756 (11746): R-Y7777


As you see the V13 corresponds to one of the Balkan samples in fact. So I will now download the files again, but based on the name of the BAM.
Edit: It seems I cannot find back all BAM-file names, and NCBI is no help, it has the same wrong links between sample and BAM.

Interesting no?

R3481 (11117): J-Z35779
266 CE Doclea sample is J2a.
 
Aparently not. There was a mixup in the bam file names.

Now with the correct files, per Yleaf:


R3481: J-Z1043 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/
R3906: I-A11380 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-A11380/
R3918: J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/
R3931: E-V13 https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/
R6688: R-V164 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-V164/
R6693: J-Z600 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z600/
R6701: R-BY157588 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY157588/
R6730: I-Y41633 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y41633/
R6750: file not found
R6756: file not found
R6759: file not found
R6764: file not found
R9669: J-Z1295 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1295/
R9673: R-BY130797 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY130797/
R9918: J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/

lol
Doclea sample.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/
Just a honest mixup I hope.

Inb4 degenerate sock puppets screech "REeEeeE Muh Illyrian continuity just Communist propaganda."
 
R9918 1074 Doclea 1000 CE https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/

Seems L283 has quite the continuity in Montenegro. Avars and Goths ruining Doclea or not.

R3481: J-Z1043 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/
R9918: J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/


200 CE Doclea vs 1000 CE Doclea. Only 2 Montenegro Y samples seem L283.
So it seems despite the Avars and Goths ruining Doclea L283 has continuity in Montengro from Illyrian times to Middle Ages to today somewhat.
Now it will be extremely hard for people to argue against Illyrian continuity in SE Balkans.
 
R9918 1074 Doclea 1000 CE https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/

Seems L283 has quite the continuity in Montenegro. Avars and Goths ruining Doclea or not.


can you ask the bam files anlaysis experts in anthrogenica
to have a look on this dude:unsure:

R10667- 171 AD wels austria
(he is an outlier autosomally he cluster with canry islanders he could be e-m81 or the first e-m81 from roman period europe)
 
can you ask the bam files anlaysis experts in anthrogenica
to have a look on this dude:unsure:

R10667- 171 AD wels austria
(he is an outlier autosomally he cluster with canry islanders he could be e-m81 or the first e-m81 from roman period europe)

Of course broski. On it.

R10667 (North African Austrian sample): yDNA: I2a mtDNA: L6b
 
Of course broski. On it.






thanks man(y)
interesting for sure very european y haplogroup
and an african mtdna or north african mtdna

he could have been a roman soldier wels was in roman frontier :cool-v:
 
thanks man(y)
interesting for sure very european y haplogroup
and an african mtdna or north african mtdna

he could have been a roman soldier wels was in roman frontier :cool-v:

Yep quite surprising haplogroup indeed.

Also, really hope they find the Naissus bam file, cause if it is E-V13 it might vindicate some people on the forum, if not it will add to the mystery of E-V13.
 
R3745 (Zadar_Hypo_banka, Croatia, 1878.25bp): https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y30977/, there we have for the first time an ancient V13 from Croatia! He belongs to the old PH1246 group which is prominent in the Western-Balkans.


Edit, I checked it deeper, and it belongs to FTDNA clade E-BY66293, this also has a Syrian, a Brit and a German.

Exiting. Now I hope the members more read on cultures give context on the sample.
 
Samples from Algeria

SAMPLEDATECOVERAGELATITUDELONGITUDELOCALITYCOUNTRY
R107603674,46%36,18985,4108Necropole_OrientaleAlgeria
R1076613487,77%36,18985,4108Necropole_OrientaleAlgeria
R1077014650,17%36,18985,4108Necropole_OrientaleAlgeria


Samples from Armenia

SAMPLEDATECOVERAGELATITUDELONGITUDELOCALITYCOUNTRY
R11675-140766,28%40,688543,8493BeniaminArmenia
R11545-132863,14%40,688543,8493BeniaminArmenia
R11668-113214,73%40,688543,8493BeniaminArmenia
R11536-98559,87%40,688543,8493BeniaminArmenia
R11535-78662,54%40,688543,8493BeniaminArmenia
R11540-39157,34%40,688543,8493BeniaminArmenia
R11546-7764,10%40,688543,8493BeniaminArmenia
R11541959,75%40,688543,8493BeniaminArmenia
R116517160,36%40,688543,8493BeniaminArmenia
R116537187,27%40,688543,8493BeniaminArmenia
R116557177,67%40,688543,8493BeniaminArmenia
R116787166,13%40,688543,8493BeniaminArmenia
R117137184,58%40,688543,8493BeniaminArmenia
R117147170,75%40,688543,8493BeniaminArmenia
R1154447958,66%40,688543,8493BeniaminArmenia
R1154348074,31%40,688543,8493BeniaminArmenia
R1153848854,38%40,688543,8493BeniaminArmenia
R1154248857,39%40,688543,8493BeniaminArmenia


Samples from Austria



SAMPLEDATECOVERAGELATITUDELONGITUDELOCALITYCOUNTRY
R106577664,70%48,309916,3238KlosterneuburgAustria
R106597673,48%48,309916,3238KlosterneuburgAustria
R1066717185,35%48,165414,0366WelsAustria
R1066818886,66%48,165414,0366WelsAustria
R1065621752,02%48,309916,3238KlosterneuburgAustria
R1065821754,55%48,309916,3238KlosterneuburgAustria
R1066021787,66%48,309916,3238KlosterneuburgAustria
R1067027189,46%48,165414,0366WelsAustria
R1065433387,27%48,309916,3238KlosterneuburgAustria
R1066671687,10%48,165414,0366WelsAustria
R1066571786,68%48,165414,0366WelsAustria


Samples from France

SAMPLEDATECOVERAGELATITUDELONGITUDELOCALITYCOUNTRY
R1156318763,59%48,73277,0526SarrebourgFrance
R1155227259,63%48,73277,0526SarrebourgFrance
R1155327264,02%48,73277,0526SarrebourgFrance
R1155427263,24%48,73277,0526SarrebourgFrance
R1155527248,51%48,73277,0526SarrebourgFrance
R1155927273,75%48,73277,0526SarrebourgFrance
R1156127264,87%48,73277,0526SarrebourgFrance
R1155628035,14%48,73277,0526SarrebourgFrance
R187432961,05%49,61150222,97416Vendeuil_Caply_LesMarmousetsFrance
R1155033174,46%48,73277,0526SarrebourgFrance
R1155833159,44%48,73277,0526SarrebourgFrance
R1156033456,25%48,73277,0526SarrebourgFrance
R1155733771,66%48,73277,0526SarrebourgFrance
R205747044,37%49,1001156,179059Metz_SablonFrance
R205847044,61%49,1001156,179059Metz_SablonFrance
R205549257,41%49,1196776,174949Metz_LunetteFrance
R2065134660,84%49,1152626,169192Metz_SaintPierreFrance
R2066134651,16%49,1152626,169192Metz_SaintPierreFrance


Samples from Germany

SAMPLEDATECOVERAGELATITUDELONGITUDELOCALITYCOUNTRY
R1186645023,89%51,10910,9956HasslebenGermany
R1186745034,81%51,10910,9956HasslebenGermany
R1186845058,35%51,10910,9956HasslebenGermany
R1187245047,74%51,10910,9956HasslebenGermany
R1187345046,48%51,10910,9956HasslebenGermany
R1187545054,83%51,10910,9956HasslebenGermany
R1187745014,51%51,10910,9956HasslebenGermany


Samples from Italy

SAMPLEDATECOVERAGELATITUDELONGITUDELOCALITYCOUNTRY
R155514651,40%43,723716412,6346536Urbino_BivioItaly
R155615152,34%43,723716412,6346536Urbino_BivioItaly
R155715150,06%43,723716412,6346536Urbino_BivioItaly
R155417352,96%43,723716412,6346536Urbino_BivioItaly
R1110920152,86%41,762112,2491Isola_SacraItaly
R1111120168,46%41,762112,2491Isola_SacraItaly
R1111220165,23%41,762112,2491Isola_SacraItaly
R1111320167,63%41,762112,2491Isola_SacraItaly
R1111520166,34%41,762112,2491Isola_SacraItaly
R1111620162,16%41,762112,2491Isola_SacraItaly
R1111720158,51%41,762112,2491Isola_SacraItaly
R1111820180,11%41,762112,2491Isola_SacraItaly
R1111920160,80%41,762112,2491Isola_SacraItaly
R1112020166,28%41,762112,2491Isola_SacraItaly
R1112120160,83%41,762112,2491Isola_SacraItaly
R129195053,55%41,896512,4719Palazzo_della_CancelleriaItaly
R129295044,79%41,896512,4719Palazzo_della_CancelleriaItaly
R129495046,33%41,896512,4719Palazzo_della_CancelleriaItaly
R1223148548,30%41,896512,4719Palazzo_della_CancelleriaItaly
R1225148553,97%41,896512,4719Palazzo_della_CancelleriaItaly


Samples from Lebanon

SAMPLEDATECOVERAGELATITUDELONGITUDELOCALITYCOUNTRY
R1222948878,40%33,852235,8292EjJaouzeLebanon
R1223349033,44%33,852235,8292EjJaouzeLebanon
R347750049,27%33,62251935,499985ChhimLebanon
R347650562,17%33,62251935,499985ChhimLebanon
R1224659933,96%33,852235,8292EjJaouzeLebanon
R981861055,33%33,62251935,499985ChhimLebanon
R1224562034,39%33,852235,8292EjJaouzeLebanon
R982362467,59%33,62251935,499985ChhimLebanon
R347370554,46%33,62251935,499985ChhimLebanon


Samples from Lithuania

SAMPLEDATECOVERAGELATITUDELONGITUDELOCALITYCOUNTRY
R1084033952,47%54,68715725,279652BailuliaiLithuania
R1083046855,19%54,898523,9036MarveleLithuania
R1083246847,05%54,898523,9036MarveleLithuania
R1083646849,21%54,898523,9036MarveleLithuania
R1083846856,32%54,898523,9036MarveleLithuania


Samples from Montenegro

SAMPLEDATECOVERAGELATITUDELONGITUDELOCALITYCOUNTRY
R348126656,57%42,46686919,266164Doclea_BjelovineMontenegro
R347879562,04%42,46686919,266164Doclea_BjelovineMontenegro
R991996365,82%42,46686919,266164Doclea_BjelovineMontenegro
R9918107456,83%42,46686919,266164Doclea_BjelovineMontenegro
R3482108968,12%42,46686919,266164Doclea_BjelovineMontenegro
R9920110253,04%42,46686919,266164Doclea_BjelovineMontenegro


Samples from Poland

SAMPLEDATECOVERAGELATITUDELONGITUDELOCALITYCOUNTRY
R106201243,14%54,117619,5742WeklicePoland
R106258559,08%54,117619,5742WeklicePoland
R106268553,76%54,117619,5742WeklicePoland
R106318547,22%54,117619,5742WeklicePoland
R106338564,28%54,117619,5742WeklicePoland
R106348562,64%54,117619,5742WeklicePoland
R106368559,83%54,117619,5742WeklicePoland
R113918539,80%54,117619,5742WeklicePoland
R1061815057,86%54,117619,5742WeklicePoland


Samples from Portugal

SAMPLEDATECOVERAGELATITUDELONGITUDELOCALITYCOUNTRY
R1049933181,68%38,7261-9,3653MiroicoPortugal
R1050833766,89%38,7261-9,3653MiroicoPortugal
R1048733766,13%40,099444-8,490556ConimbrigaPortugal
R1048833757,83%40,099444-8,490556ConimbrigaPortugal
R1050042653,65%38,7261-9,3653MiroicoPortugal
R1050142664,40%38,7261-9,3653MiroicoPortugal
R1050242671,97%38,7261-9,3653MiroicoPortugal
R1050642677,69%38,7261-9,3653MiroicoPortugal
R1050742650,92%38,7261-9,3653MiroicoPortugal
R1050351888,61%38,7261-9,3653MiroicoPortugal
R1049478186,54%38,8803-7,1637MontedaNoraPortugal
R1049682985,03%38,8803-7,1637MontedaNoraPortugal
R1049183282,74%38,8803-7,1637MontedaNoraPortugal


Samples from Sardinia

SAMPLEDATECOVERAGELATITUDELONGITUDELOCALITYCOUNTRY
R11828-105060,75%40,59388,2045Sant_Imbenia; SardiniaSardinia
R11829-95762,15%40,59388,2045Sant_Imbenia; SardiniaSardinia
R11835-78865,46%40,59388,2045Sant_Imbenia; SardiniaSardinia
R1183612462,44%40,59388,2045Sant_Imbenia; SardiniaSardinia
R1183418267,23%40,59388,2045Sant_Imbenia; SardiniaSardinia
R1183229463,05%40,59388,2045Sant_Imbenia; SardiniaSardinia
R1183331364,11%40,59388,2045Sant_Imbenia; SardiniaSardinia


Samples from Slovakia

SAMPLEDATECOVERAGELATITUDELONGITUDELOCALITYCOUNTRY
R2200468,45%49,205618,5662Bytca_HraboveSlovakia
R2201451,52%49,205618,5662Bytca_HraboveSlovakia
R22022552,26%49,06596318,205994MikusovceSlovakia
R220415065,74%48,317516,9829ZohorSlovakia
R220830055,39%48,33707318,356218Tes_MlynanySlovakia
R220940070,03%48,33707318,356218Tes_MlynanySlovakia
R221040057,25%48,33707318,356218Tes_MlynanySlovakia
R221140069,12%48,33707318,356218Tes_MlynanySlovakia
R220645058,34%48,33707318,356218Tes_MlynanySlovakia
R220745050,90%48,33707318,356218Tes_MlynanySlovakia


Samples from Slovenia

SAMPLEDATECOVERAGELATITUDELONGITUDELOCALITYCOUNTRY
R1047728656,42%46,056914,5058EmonaSlovenia
R1047129140,49%46,056914,5058EmonaSlovenia
R1046929643,59%46,056914,5058EmonaSlovenia
R1047331342,19%46,056914,5058EmonaSlovenia
R1046732767,58%46,056914,5058EmonaSlovenia
R1047832953,76%46,056914,5058EmonaSlovenia
R1047433147,92%46,056914,5058EmonaSlovenia


Samples from Syria

SAMPLEDATECOVERAGELATITUDELONGITUDELOCALITYCOUNTRY
R335975455,78%34,97350340,555681Tell_MasaikhSyria
R3361122065,62%34,97350340,555681Tell_MasaikhSyria


Samples from Croatia

SAMPLEDATECOVERAGELATITUDELONGITUDELOCALITYCOUNTRY
R37457258,46%44,11435215,227943Zadar_Hypo_bankaCroatia
R374314654,12%44,10103415,279107Zadar_UlicaCroatia
R374414647,78%44,10103415,279107Zadar_UlicaCroatia
R367016835,99%43,5185916,13651Trogir_PolicijaCroatia
R366517138,20%43,52498416,252825Trogir_DragulinCroatia
R374617763,56%44,114115,233055Zadar_PoliklinikaCroatia
R374717765,64%44,114115,233055Zadar_PoliklinikaCroatia
R374217746,74%44,10103415,279107Zadar_ReljaCroatia
R365522045,18%45,55053218,678046OsijekCroatia
R365628049,81%45,55053218,678046OsijekCroatia
R365728044,67%45,55053218,678046OsijekCroatia
R204130350,40%45,46466616,377654Sisak_PogorelecCroatia
R365931344,68%45,76783416,123606ScitarjevoCroatia
R204032446,78%45,46466616,377654Sisak_PogorelecCroatia
R204232745,74%45,46466616,377654Sisak_PogorelecCroatia
R354233057,06%45,772918,6108Beli_ManastirCroatia
R205046859,29%45,203914,5437Omišalj-MirineCroatia
R205146848,92%45,203914,5437Omišalj-MirineCroatia
R205346865,65%45,203914,5437Omišalj-MirineCroatia
R354548756,41%43,607616,7143GardunCroatia
R366049749,88%45,76783416,123606ScitarjevoCroatia
R368550056,14%43,61637416,801661VelicCroatia
R354351660,75%43,607616,7143GardunCroatia
R354757157,30%45,4113,66194Novo_selo_BunjeCroatia
R354457561,45%43,607616,7143GardunCroatia
R204557742,75%45,45473213,518361Umag_SiparCroatia
R366259948,79%45,46729313,506565SiparCroatia
R366475156,39%45,46729313,506565SiparCroatia
R366378141,88%45,46729313,506565SiparCroatia



 
That looks like Liburnian territory. During Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age Liburni got affected by the Urnfield migration attested in their bi-ritualism.

Sineva KukočUniversity of Zadar, Department of Archaeology, Zadar


Abstract


In the northern Dalmatia region where there were only two cultural systems throughout the Bronze and Iron Ages, four moments are crucial in the use of cremation ritual during the 2nd/1st centuries BC: in the Early Bronze Age (Cetina culture: Ervenik, Podvršje − Matakov brig, Nadin, Krneza − Duševića glavica), in the Early Iron Age (Nadin, mound 13, Krneza − Jokina glavica), in Hellenism (Dragišić, gr. 4 A-C), and finally, for the first time very intensively during the Romanization of Liburnians. Newly discovered cremations in ceramic urns (gr. 3, 13) in burial mound 13 (9th – 6th cent. BC) from Nadin near Benkovac are the first example (after Dragišić) of Liburnian cremation; more precisely, burial mound 13 with 19 graves represents a form of biritualism in the Liburnians. It is also an example of the greatest number of Liburnian burials under a mound, with crouched, extended and cremated skeletons and many ritual remains (traces of fire on the ground and on animal bones: funerary feast?; numerous remains of ceramic vessels (libation?). Although typical Liburnian burial "inherits" many formal and symbolic elements (stone cist, enclosing wall, libation, etc.) from the (Early) Bronze Age (and probably Eneolithic as well), cremation in the Liburnian burial mound 13 from Nadin cannot be explained in terms of continuity from the Early Bronze Age; links are missing, particularly those from the Middle Bronze Age in the study of the cultural dynamics of the 2nd millennium BC in the northern Dalmatia region. Squat form of the Nadin urns with a distinct neck has analogies in the Liburnian (Nin) and Daunian funerary pots for burying newborns (ad encytrismos), and also in the typology of pottery (undecorated or decorated) in a wider region (Ruše, V.Gorica, Dalj/Vukovar, Terni II, Este, Bologna I-II, Roma II, Cumae I, Pontecagnano IA, Histrians, etc.), i.e. in the forms widespread from the Danubian region, Alps, and Balkans to the Apennine Peninsula between the Late Bronze and Early Iron Ages (10th/9th – 8th cent. BC). Although appearance of cremation in the Picenian culture has not been completely clear (Fermo necropolis, burials from Ancona, Numana, Novilara: graves Servici, 29, 39 from Piceno II-III, from the 8th/7th.cent. BC), Liburnian culture is most similar to the Picenian culture in the Adriatic world by the intensity and period of cremation, and form of urns. Specifically, decorated urn in a male grave 52 from Numana from the 9th century BC is analogous to the Nadin urns. This grave from Numana is usually mentioned as an example of trans-Adriatic, Picenian-Liburnian (Balkanic) i.e. Picenian-Histrian relations. Liburnian urns are similar to the urn from the grave in Numana, 495, Davanzali, from the late 9th century by their profilation. "Genesis" of both Liburnian and Picenian cremation is unknown. They are two convergent phenomena, reflecting the "unity" of the late Urnenfelder world of the 10th/9th centuries BC and resulting from cultural-ethnical contacts in a "closed circle" from the Danubian region – southeastern Alpine region – Apennine Peninsula, supported by smaller migrations in the first centuries of the Iron Age, from the trans-Adriatic direction in Picenum (with definite Villanova influence), and in Liburnia probably from the hinterland. In this Adriatic circle in the first centuries of the Iron Age multiple cultural contacts between Liburnians, Histrians and Picenians are for now a good (initial) context for a more detailed interpretation of Liburnian cremation. Despite the aforementioned, it is not necessary to relate directly the structure (ritual, goods) of gr. 52, Numana – Qualiotti to Histrian patterns nor the grave 495, Numana-Davanzali to the Iapodian ones. Cremated Liburnian burial from the Early Iron Age represents a certain continuity and a "reflection" of the late Urnenfelder circle, which was manifested in different ways in the beginnings of the Liburnian, Picenian, and Histrian cultures and elsewhere. The latest excavations on a planned Liburnian-Roman necropolis in Nadin (Nedinum) provided us with new information about the spatial, chronological and symbolical relation (religious, social) between the autochtonous Liburnian and Roman component in the period of Romanization of northern Dalmatia.

https://morepress.unizd.hr/journals/index.php/adriatica/article/view/1071

But, a single sample so far, we need to wait for more in order to make conclusion, so far E-V13 in a pack we see in Viminacium and the most in Psenicevo Culture (which is descendand of the true originators of Urnfield Culture, Gava).
 
We have several explanations for that E-V13 (non Z5017/Z5018) in Zadar:

1. Cetina Culture
2. Vatin Culture contribution on Proto-Illyrians, as attested archeologically, though Vatin people were common people and not part of the elite. Their northern kinsmen culture vanished, they either ran away or were replaced by the incoming Channeled-Ware who were battling in and around Danube with the Tumulus people.
3. Late Bronze Age to Early Iron Age Urnfield Culture.
 
3745.bam looks Italian:


[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Europe_ITA_Liguria
1.028720
Europe_ITA_Lombardy
1.046060
Europe_ITA_Veneto
1.060488
Europe_ITA_Tuscany
1.094382
(...)


This must be R3745.


=====


R9918 from Montenegro looks like modern South Slavs already:


Sample 9918.txt
Amerindian 0
Arabian 0
Armenian 5.9
Basque 0.14
Central African 0
Central Euro 8.96
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 5.38
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 17.14
East Med 1.42
Eastern Euro 11.48
Fennoscandian 4.69
French 1.97
Iberian 8.92
Indo-Chinese 0.5
Italian 15.29
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 2.17
North African 0
North Atlantic 7.58
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 5.42
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0
South Central Asian 0
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0
West African 0
West Caucasian 1.34
West Med 1.71

It seems the autosomal matches the historical context quite well. Pre migration Balkans looking North Italian, with post migration matching the admixture event. Asked Tomenable to run the AC-BC calculation, to see if it can tell us what the migration population would have resembled.
 
R3745 is the first published E-V13 in the coastal western Balkans in antiquity, one of the oldest E-V13 in the Balkans and the oldest sample from Roman Iader. A brief summary of the historical context of the area.


iader.png



The inhabitants of Iader known as Iadestini, Iadastini (Latin), Iadasinoi (Greek). Iader is located in southern Liburnia and is one of the areas of Liburnia where Illyrian tribes had moved since the Early Iron Age. Thus, the Iadestini are referred to as one of the Illyrian people in southern Liburnia in ancient sources.


‘Illyrians’ in ancient ethnographic discourse
Danijel Dzino
Dans Dialogues d'histoire ancienne 2014/2 (40/2), pages 45 à 65


The Iadastini are mentioned for the first time in the 4th century BCE.






In the Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax:






iadasini.png

(Map from Sasel-Kos (2013), The 'great lake' and the Autariatai in Pseudo-Skylax)


Seems we got our first E-V13 Illyrian judging by this.
 
Seems we got our first E-V13 Illyrian judging by this.

He does not plot autosomally with the Iron Age Illyrian samples. This is not a BCE sample or am I missing something here. Also funny how all of these J2b-L283 core Illyrian Iron Age samples were not seen as Illyrian by Bruzmi but he is literally over the moon for a much younger AD E1b-V13 sample in the region.

The Iron Age Illyrian sample plot further north. This sample seems to plot closer to Central Italians as it seems. His clade is also very isolated?
 
Aparently not. There was a mixup in the bam file names.



lol
Doclea sample.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/

I like Doclea as it shows a nice variety of subclades in one place and surprising paternal Illyrian continuity in AD times. One sample is under Z38240 AD continuity Doclea, mod. d. Montenegro R9918: J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190 the other under Z638 AD continuity Doclea, mod.d. Montenegro R3481: J-Z1043 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/

The J-Z1043 sample is so important for all under Z631, Dajt e mi who are Korbi, I wanted to use a Raven emoji but cannot :( May not be the Gramps moment you had with that Early Iapygian sample but this is nonetheless really exciting news for me :awesome: It also proves an East Adriatic and not as some were postulating Celtic? origin am thinking of Ghurier here lol




 
I like Doclea as it shows a nice variety of subclades in one place and surprising paternal Illyrian continuity in AD times. One sample is under Z38240 AD continuity Doclea, mod. d. Montenegro R9918: J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190 the other under Z638 AD continuity Doclea, mod.d. Montenegro R3481: J-Z1043 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/

The J-Z1043 sample is so important for all under Z631, Dajt e mi who are Korbi, I wanted to use a Raven emoji but cannot :( May not be the Gramps moment you had with that Early Iapygian sample but this is nonetheless really exciting news for me :awesome: It also proves an East Adriatic and not as some were postulating Celtic? origin am thinking of Ghurier here lol





Yep. Feels like discovering an old relative doesn't it? Quite an amazing feeling. Makes this hobby even more rewarding.
 
As for the E-V13 that is core Illyrian territory. A sample that so far was elusive from the region, being found in the first century CE NW Balkans. That is also the oldest V13 sample from the Balkans or am I missing something?
Think in that subclade we have Dushmani, some Arberesh as well as some Montenegro or is it Serbian nobility? Not to versed in Balkan clans.
As for the autosomal. That is exactly what you would expect. The difference from Marche/Tuscany/Lombary can be seen autosomally even among cousins given the current methods/calculators, they really cluster together. Seems a foregone conclusion that pre migration Balkans, at least from the samples we have, was N. Italian like.

Edit: As for fora politics as you might have noticed, except for my larp hunting I try not to get bothered to much by the politics of it. Each one of the members me included gets things right and wrong depending on the ocassion, I try not to hold grudges. So just because Brumzi said it does not make the sources irrelevant. Shooting down the message because of the messenger is like missing the moon for the finger.
 
He does not plot autosomally with the Iron Age Illyrian samples. This is not a BCE sample or am I missing something here. Also funny how all of these J2b-L283 core Illyrian Iron Age samples were not seen as Illyrian by Bruzmi but he is literally over the moon for a much younger AD E1b-V13 sample in the region.

The Iron Age Illyrian sample plot further north. This sample seems to plot closer to Central Italians as it seems. His clade is also very isolated?

From where were the earlier samples with Iron Age J2b2-L283, Liburnian core territory or somewhere else? Perhaps Liburnians might have been separate domain. We need more samples, too bad it's from a timeline where a lot of possibilites, but his Central Italian-like profile hints that he wasn't from somewhere else.

But there is no mistake, if he is a lone ranger, and the majority appear in a completely different cultural-context in Gava derived Psenicevo, then the origin is clear.

I can see rafc saying that the two other Dalmatian samples were exotic J2a and E-M34, i thought along with E-V13 were just some Roman soldiers, but the E-V13 autosomal plots with Central Italians.
 
From where were the earlier samples with Iron Age J2b2-L283, Liburnian core territory or somewhere else? Perhaps Liburnians might have been separate domain. We need more samples, too bad it's from a timeline where a lot of possibilites, but his Central Italian-like profile hints that he wasn't from somewhere else.

But there is no mistake, if he is a lone ranger, and the majority appear in a completely different cultural-context in Gava derived Psenicevo, then the origin is clear.

Fully agree. The good news is that not all samples have been analyzed from Croatia and Serbia yet. Including one from Naissus, and I have a feeling, or maybe hope that we do find an E-V13 in Naissus. That would be quite something as far as vindicating some of your theories.
 

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