Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age

Archetype0ne said:
Fully agree. The good news is that not all samples have been analyzed from Croatia and Serbia yet. Including one from Naissus, and I have a feeling, or maybe hope that we do find an E-V13 in Naissus. That would be quite something as far as vindicating some of your theories.
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Illyrians from Albania logically should plot with Central Italians and those far in South with South Italians and Greeks. But, let's see, perhaps more context gets revealed.
 
Hawk said:
From where were the earlier samples with Iron Age J2b2-L283, Liburnian core territory or somewhere else? Perhaps Liburnians might have been separate domain. We need more samples, too bad it's from a timeline where a lot of possibilites, but his Central Italian-like profile hints that he wasn't from somewhere else.

But there is no mistake, if he is a lone ranger, and the majority appear in a completely different cultural-context in Gava derived Psenicevo, then the origin is clear.

I can see rafc saying that the two other Dalmatian samples were exotic J2a and E-M34, i thought along with E-V13 were just some Roman soldiers, but the E-V13 autosomal plots with Central Italians.
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There you go and also thanks to Trojet for this nice collection it comes in quite handy at times:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...QX&ll=47.8338817092451,23.233682563547568&z=5
 
Archetype0ne said:
The difference from Marche/Tuscany/Lombary can be seen autosomally even among cousins given the current methods/calculators, they really cluster together. Seems a foregone conclusion that pre migration Balkans, at least from the samples we have, was N. Italian like.

Edit: As for fora politics as you might have noticed, except for my larp hunting I try not to get bothered to much by the politics of it. Each one of the members me included gets things right and wrong depending on the ocassion, I try not to hold grudges. So just because Brumzi said it does not make the sources irrelevant. Shooting down the message because of the messenger is like missing the moon for the finger.
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Neither do I care, keep in mind there was a lot of false accusations made by multiple users against me and I could not care less ;) I am just pointing out the obnoxious double standards some people use in making "conclusions" about facts that are right in their face.

The Iron Age Illyrian samples from Jazinka etc are more Southern located yet they still plot more Northern just as the MBA Dalmatian Posusje culture for which at this time it is quite clear that our Illyrians show a continuity from.
 
mount123 said:
Neither do I care, keep in mind there was a lot of false accusations made by multiple users against me and I could not care less ;) I am just pointing out the obnoxious double standards some people use in making "conclusions" about facts that are right in their face.

The Iron Age Illyrian samples from Jazinka etc are more Southern located yet they still plot more Northern just as the MBA Dalmatian Posusje culture for which at this time it is quite clear that our Illyrians show a continuity from.
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Trust me I got some white hair dealing with people I disagreed with and even trlls in this hobby over the years. It's always the same, you just get better at separating the wheat from the chaff.

Ps: It does not help that Albanian conversational style is like a Fus Roh Dah contest / very confrontational.

As for the more southern shift I think there might be something to it, but I would not make too much of it cause as I said cousin to cousin you can see a difference given how these calculators work.
One way to "test" it would be to compare all these samples once we have the coordinates in a PCA with contemporary samples from the same burial grounds, and maybe the later samples from nearby, not sure if the E-V13s from Pannonia would help or how much they would fit given the context.
 
I am bit wondering, why would rafc suffer delay on getting the data via FTP? Is it that the BAM files are too big? He is probably using some tool from github repository to deduce the Y-DNA from the BAM files.

Would be good if they split the sample checks, someone else like Trojet maybe cane check the rest, perhaps there is some kind of download restriction rate on the server. Who knows.
 
Knowing Trojet he is already on it.
 
The E-V13 sample distances doesn't look Central Italian to me mount. He looks North-Italian-like. And i really doubt this sample is from Greek colonizers or from somewhere else, based on this so far, and modern diversity of this particular subclade.

Distance to: Croatia_Zadar:R3745___AD_72___Coverage_58.46%
5.25602511 Swiss_Italian
5.31083798 Italian_Lombardy
5.80956108 French_Provence_outlier
6.24121783 Italian_North_Alpine
6.33566098 Italian_Piedmont
6.80671727 Italian_Liguria
6.81546770 Italian_Veneto
7.38897828 FRA_Var(n=1)
7.62059709 Italian_North
7.73773869 Italian_Trentino
7.90971554 Italian_Emilia
8.21373240 Italian_Friuli 9.76762510 Portuguese
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What i wonder is the Bronze Age context from which he derives, or whether he was a minority or they were within a reasonable percentage among the Liburni/Veneti.
 
Hawk said:
The E-V13 sample distances doesn't look Central Italian to me mount. He looks North-Italian-like. And i really doubt this sample is from Greek colonizers or from somewhere else, based on this so far, and modern diversity of this particular subclade.



What i wonder is the Bronze Age context from which he derives, or whether he was a minority or they were within a reasonable percentage among the Liburni/Veneti.
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My bad Hawk I confused him with another sample ID. Yes, he is North Italian like. We would obviously need Iron Age and AD samples from Zadar and the surroundings to determine that. From IA to AD many things can change obviously.
 
Do we still have to listen to the "Neo-Illyrian"/"Dardanian" garbage from these people? Absolute clowns going on and on with their dumb theories when it was quite clear what the answer was.

Imagine pushing for 1 Y-DNA = 1 ethnic group theories all the way into late antiquity.
 
Archetype0ne said:
Inb4 degenerate sock puppets screech "REeEeeE Muh Illyrian continuity just Communist propaganda."
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I truly for the life of me cannot understand these people. The Albanoi were a tribe in Illyria and we have no records of migrations since then. The Greeks still call us "Albanoi" and they've been doing it for 2000 years.
 
enter_tain said:
Do we still have to listen to the "Neo-Illyrian"/"Dardanian" garbage from these people? Absolute clowns going on and on with their dumb theories when it was quite clear what the answer was.

Imagine pushing for 1 Y-DNA = 1 ethnic group theories all the way into late antiquity.
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Kudos to you being so visionary and smart, i wanna shake your hand. :LOL:

 
mount123 said:
All of the J2b-L283s from the paper:

R9918 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro : J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/
R3481 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro: J-Z1043 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/
R3918 Sirmium: J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/
R6693 Svilos_Krusevlje: J-Z600 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z600/
R9669 Viminacium: J-Z1295 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1295/
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Only 2 have Z638. Even Montenegro has 1 "northern Illyrian" upstream version.
 
mount123 said:
All of the J2b-L283s from the paper:

R9918 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro : J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/
R3481 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro: J-Z1043 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/
R3918 Sirmium: J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/
R6693 Svilos_Krusevlje: J-Z600 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z600/
R9669 Viminacium: J-Z1295 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1295/
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Thanks for the update and the compressed list.

Do you know, by chance, if the Z600 assignment for the Serbian is his final placement? That would be a big deal to find a “pure” Z600 there.

Interesting to see CTS6190 down there in Montenegro, although this was a very young sample. The Z1043 is not surprising and I would expect more ancient samples from underneath Z638 as they sample more southern locations in the western Balkans. There has been a bias so far towards Z38240 lineages in the Balkans because researchers from the NW Balkans (where Z38240 may have been more numerous) are aggressively getting samples tested from a wide variety of sites. I wonder what the root causes are for the lack of sampling further south?

Lastly, have all the BAMs from this study been analyzed? Seems like there might be some stragglers out there. I’m curious if any L283 will pop up outside the Balkans.
 
enter_tain said:
I truly for the life of me cannot understand these people. The Albanoi were a tribe in Illyria and we have no records of migrations since then. The Greeks still call us "Albanoi" and they've been doing it for 2000 years.
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History states the Albanoi came from the island of Rab as per Roman historian Polybius .............they got involved in the Illyrian wars ..............they then settled on the mainland in southern montenegro ...circa 200BC

I thought this was already discussed

Pliny only noted these people in Albanopolis in 150AD ............he named them Albanoi after this town/village
 
enter_tain said:
Only 2 have Z638. Even Montenegro has 1 "northern Illyrian" upstream version.
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of course ...............as I have been stating for many years...Illyrian migrated from north to south in the western balkans
 
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