Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age

[Archetype0ne]

Thanks for the update and the compressed list.

Do you know, by chance, if the Z600 assignment for the Serbian is his final placement? That would be a big deal to find a “pure” Z600 there.

Interesting to see CTS6190 down there in Montenegro, although this was a very young sample. The Z1043 is not surprising and I would expect more ancient samples from underneath Z638 as they sample more southern locations in the western Balkans. There has been a bias so far towards Z38240 lineages in the Balkans because researchers from the NW Balkans (where Z38240 may have been more numerous) are aggressively getting samples tested from a wide variety of sites. I wonder what the root causes are for the lack of sampling further south?

Lastly, have all the BAMs from this study been analyzed? Seems like there might be some stragglers out there. I’m curious if any L283 will pop up outside the Balkans.

Not confirmed as of yet.

R10620 Poland Weklice_WEK_299
https://www.yfull.com/tree/j-z2507/


I'm downloading more of the Weklice samples right now.

R10620 M 41.5 calBCE 64.5 calCE 14C Weklice_WEK_299


If it is so, then this J-L283+ individual had reached the Baltic Sea in northern Poland by the 1st century AD. It should be the northernmost CE J-L283 sample so far.


From the supplementary information:






K36:




mix: 97.2% Sweden + 2.8% Tatar Crimea Coast
distance: 8.44


mix: 91.6% Sweden + 8.4% German Volga
distance: 8.45


mix: 97.2% Sweden + 2.8% Tatar Lithuanian
distance: 8.46


mix: 97.4% Sweden + 2.6% Swiss Italian
distance: 8.46


mix: 97.2% Sweden + 2.8% Russian Bryansk
distance: 8.46


mix: 97.4% Sweden + 2.6% Poland Sudovia
distance: 8.46


mix: 95.2% Sweden + 4.8% Germany West
distance: 8.47


mix: 95.4% Sweden + 4.6% German South
distance: 8.47


mix: 97.4% Sweden + 2.6% Romania SW
distance: 8.47


mix: 99% Sweden + 1% Palestina
distance: 8.48

Are you sure? I just checked R10620. He seems to be low coverage, but he is actually negative for a couple of J2b-L283 SNPs (Z2383- 2G,
Z616- 1A).

Edit: Since Trojet did not arrive at same conclusion. Likely this is a mishap.

 

[Fustan]

E-V13 found in ancient coastal Dalmatia. Can't wait to see people say that it's actually a Thracian or something else.

 

[enter_tain]

E-V13 found in ancient coastal Dalmatia. Can't wait to see people say that it's actually a Thracian or something else.

These guys will come up with any excuse. In the beginning it was "Illyrians are J2B2 but they don't have Z638 like Albanians do". Then that Z638 popped up in south Dalmatia. Then it became "Proto-Albanians were EV-13. Illyrians were only J2b2". Rrenjet posted on Anthrogenica saying it was the oldest EV-13 sample in the Balkans or something, and another poster showed that he had the same autosomal DNA.

Can't wait to see what other garbage excuse they'll come up with. It'll never end because they don't want it to end. They're not interested in the truth.

 

[Fustan]

These guys will come up with any excuse. In the beginning it was "Illyrians are J2B2 but they don't have Z638 like Albanians do". Then that Z638 popped up in south Dalmatia. Then it became "Proto-Albanians were EV-13. Illyrians were only J2b2". Rrenjet posted on Anthrogenica saying it was the oldest EV-13 sample in the Balkans or something, and another poster showed that he had the same autosomal DNA.

Can't wait to see what other garbage excuse they'll come up with. It'll never end because they don't want it to end. They're not interested in the truth.

It never bothered me that the truth was so hard to grasp for foreigners like rat Serbs. But seeing "Albanians" like Derite, Hawk, mount123 follow that path is just pure insanity. You would've never seen it in fora back in the golden age around 2015-2018.

 

[Hawk]

These guys will come up with any excuse. In the beginning it was "Illyrians are J2B2 but they don't have Z638 like Albanians do". Then that Z638 popped up in south Dalmatia. Then it became "Proto-Albanians were EV-13. Illyrians were only J2b2". Rrenjet posted on Anthrogenica saying it was the oldest EV-13 sample in the Balkans or something, and another poster showed that he had the same autosomal DNA.

Can't wait to see what other garbage excuse they'll come up with. It'll never end because they don't want it to end. They're not interested in the truth.

The amount of garbage you throw out of your mouth, deceptive lies when you generalize stuff is totally ridicilous.

This E-V13 sample is not the oldest in Balkans, the Early Iron Age Psenicevo Culture are the oldest in the Balkans and you see E-V13 in big packs not lone rangers, this was Gava derived lineage (the Gava core territory is actually what the Italian and Hungarian archaeologists think where the origin of true Urnfielders is, and that they were descendants of Neolithic surviving population), and if you connect the dots then that E-V13 sample was likely a minority lineage among Illyrians coming with the Urnfielders, the Liburni apparently were affected by these waves.

The problem with you people is that you go and spam threads all over the place not arguing whether E-V13 was present among Illyrians but that Thracians had no E-V13, because of bizarre reasons. I argued all over the place, E-V13 was a Pan-Balkanic phenomena during the Late Bronze Age.

 

[enter_tain]

The amount of garbage you throw out of your mouth, deceptive lies when you generalize stuff is totally ridicilous.

This E-V13 sample is not the oldest in Balkans, the Early Iron Age Psenicevo Culture are the oldest in the Balkans and you see E-V13 in big packs not lone rangers, this was Gava derived lineage (the Gava core territory is actually what the Italian and Hungarian archaeologists think where the origin of true Urnfielders is, and that they were descendants of Neolithic surviving population), and if you connect the dots then that E-V13 sample was likely a minority lineage among Illyrians coming with the Urnfielders, the Liburni apparently were affected by these waves.

The problem with you people is that you go and spam threads all over the place not arguing whether E-V13 was present among Illyrians but that Thracians had no E-V13, because of bizarre reasons. I argued all over the place, E-V13 was a Pan-Balkanic phenomena during the Late Bronze Age.

What you do is pseudo-science b.s. You and Riverman discuss "cultures" that like 3 people know about based on random pots and pans and make up nonsense theories.

"Oh look it's a rare cup from the Plastic Cup culture in the Central Balkans. I'm EV-13 and I'm here at the same time as this plastic cup. That means EV-13 spread came along with the plastic cup"

 

[enter_tain]

A second EV-13 in Croatia during antiquity has been confirmed. This was actually during when the period they were called "Illyrians" by the Romans.

Like I always said, EV-13 has always been present in the Western Balkans, it was just a minority lineage. Even today, outside of Kosovo it maxes out at 20-30% amongst Albanians, Greeks, Bulgarians. In Kosovo we can see a recent massive founder effect due to tribes like Berisha that migrated there a few hundred years back.

 

[Hawk]

A second EV-13 in Croatia during antiquity has been confirmed. This was actually during when the period they were called "Illyrians" by the Romans.

Like I always said, EV-13 has always been present in the Western Balkans, it was just a minority lineage. Even today, outside of Kosovo it maxes out at 20-30% amongst Albanians, Greeks, Bulgarians. In Kosovo we can see a recent massive founder effect due to tribes like Berisha that migrated there a few hundred years back.

Yeah yeah, that's your wishful thinking, and propaganda machine, E-V13 were a minority lineage in Western Balkans and they spread it from there everywhere, collect all E-V13 put it in a place where it suits your worldview, you can go and sell this cheap-thrills somewhere else.

In Kosova actually i suspect there is far more E-V13 L241(Gashi, the real Gashi the Bardhis (Bardhi tribe seems to have been quite in a good position during Ottoman Empire) and the Shipshani who latter joined them, Kuqi, Thaqi) than FGC33621 whose presence can be equally attributed to the Sopi tribe who had far better early advantage with Ottoman Empire than the Berishas who actually were resisting the Ottoman Empire, such as when they went to war with the Beylerbeyler of Rumelia/Balkans, the Begoll of Peja who was a Gash-Bardh (E-V13 -> L241).

The Daco-Thracians were far more in number than Illyrians in antiquity. The Eastern Urnfielders/Eastern Hallstatt left a legacy in a lot of Paleo-Balkan people of classical antiquity, some more (Daco-Thracians, Classical Greeks, Dardanians, Enchelei and perhaps Southern Illyrians) some less (Illyrians on general).

 

[Hawk]

What you do is pseudo-science b.s. You and Riverman discuss "cultures" that like 3 people know about based on random pots and pans and make up nonsense theories.

"Oh look it's a rare cup from the Plastic Cup culture in the Central Balkans. I'm EV-13 and I'm here at the same time as this plastic cup. That means EV-13 spread came along with the plastic cup"

Actually, kudos to Riverman for initiating a very concise clarification on archaeological situation of Bronze to Iron Age Balkans, we didn't progress our understandings before that. You are simply 100 levels below him on understandings and you should admit it and progress your understandings. What you do is, you just throw one-liners and out of context ramblings.

Also despite having so much of trolling tendencies and narcissistic nature Huban/Oroku-Saki is quite knowledgeable as well.

 

[mount123]

All of the J2b-L283s from the paper:

R9918 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro : J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/
R3481 Doclea_Bjelovine, Mod. d. Montenegro: J-Z1043 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/
R3918 Sirmium: J-CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/
R6693 Svilos_Krusevlje: J-Z600 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z600/
R9669 Viminacium: J-Z1295 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1295/

R3544 Gardun, Croatia J-Z1043+ https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/

 

[Hawk]

There is one G2a from Split-Dalmatia as well. Don't know if he was a local or some Italian/French Roman Soldier.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-FGC8346/

This is what Pribislav posted:

R3685; 435-565 AD; Velic; Croatia; G2a2b-L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808>Y3 098>Y3101>FGC8322>FGC8346* (xFGC8327)

 

[mount123]

Yeah yeah, that's your wishful thinking, and propaganda machine, E-V13 were a minority lineage in Western Balkans and they spread it from there everywhere, collect all E-V13 put it in a place where it suits your worldview, you can go and sell this cheap-thrills somewhere else.

In Kosova actually i suspect there is far more E-V13 L241(Gashi, the real Gashi the Bardhis (Bardhi tribe seems to have been quite in a good position during Ottoman Empire) and the Shipshani who latter joined them, Kuqi, Thaqi) than FGC33621 whose presence can be equally attributed to the Sopi tribe who had far better early advantage with Ottoman Empire than the Berishas who actually were resisting the Ottoman Empire, such as when they went to war with the Beylerbeyler of Rumelia/Balkans, the Begoll of Peja who was a Gash-Bardh (E-V13 -> L241).

The Daco-Thracians were far more in number than Illyrians in antiquity. The Eastern Urnfielders/Eastern Hallstatt left a legacy in a lot of Paleo-Balkan people of classical antiquity, some more (Daco-Thracians, Classical Greeks, Dardanians, Enchelei and perhaps Southern Illyrians) some less (Illyrians on general).

There is another E1b-V13 AD sample from Scitarvo which was under Roman Pannonia.

 

[Hawk]

There is another E1b-V13 AD sample from Scitarvo which was under Roman Pannonia.

Yeah, saw it.

It just fits this paper: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10963-022-09164-0

There was likely some admix going on from the Urnfielders, but the core Illyrian inhumating group (J2b2-L283) generally resisted them and probably absorbed them during classical antiquity, including into the Classical Illyrians we know. The core Eastern Urnfielder groups aimed for South, Central and Eastern Balkans on general.

 

[mount123]

There is one G2a from Split-Dalmatia as well. Don't know if he was a local or some Italian/French Roman Soldier.

Could be a possibility. The broader clade he falls under has a very Western distribution. But would not be surprised if he actually had the same autosomal profile as the Zadar sample. The "oldest" sample under the broader clade is from Rome.

 

[mount123]

Yeah, saw it.

It just fits this paper: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10963-022-09164-0

There was likely some admix going on from the Urnfielders, but the core Illyrian inhumating group (J2b2-L283) generally resisted them and probably absorbed them during classical antiquity, including into the Classical Illyrians we know. The core Eastern Urnfielder groups aimed for South, Central and Eastern Balkans on general.

Yes, that was my first thought too. Also keeping in mind that these are AD samples not BCE. Population dynamics can change. Compare them to Latins that are R1b-U152 in the Iron Age, in the AD times there would definitely be also absorbed or other lineages.

 

[mount123]

of course ...............as I have been stating for many years...Illyrian migrated from north to south in the western balkans

That was fairly obvious since the Illyrian Iron Age samples and later samples with an East Adriatic migration pattern. It is also evident that J2b-L283 as a whole played an important role in the formation of the Illyrian ethnogenesis during Iron Age as a continuity from the Middle Bronze Age Dalmatian Posusje culture. There is a variety of clades under J2b-L283 in Illyrians.

 

[mount123]

Thanks for the update and the compressed list.

Do you know, by chance, if the Z600 assignment for the Serbian is his final placement? That would be a big deal to find a “pure” Z600 there.

Interesting to see CTS6190 down there in Montenegro, although this was a very young sample. The Z1043 is not surprising and I would expect more ancient samples from underneath Z638 as they sample more southern locations in the western Balkans. There has been a bias so far towards Z38240 lineages in the Balkans because researchers from the NW Balkans (where Z38240 may have been more numerous) are aggressively getting samples tested from a wide variety of sites. I wonder what the root causes are for the lack of sampling further south?

Lastly, have all the BAMs from this study been analyzed? Seems like there might be some stragglers out there. I’m curious if any L283 will pop up outside the Balkans.

ArchetypeOne has answered your question regarding the Svilos Z600 samples. There seems to be a J2b-L283 from R10620 Poland Weklice_WEK_299 https://www.yfull.com/tree/j-z2507/ I don't know about the certainty of his classification.

I don't really know about the lack of sampling further South. I found nonetheless interesting that there was a AD continuity for some Illyrians even though undergoing displacement processes initiated by the Roman empire and lastly Balkan migrations and of course the Slavic incursion that has completely replaced them.

As for the Southern regions: I would be thrilled to see Iron Age Illyrian samples from Montenegro, Northern Albania, South Dalmatia. Kosovo would also be interesting I am specifically thinking of tribes like the Autariatae etc. We have multiple Iron Age sites in Kosovo but archeaogenetics is not a inland pioneer discipline as I have said before and there are no funds; add to that the fact that international institutes do not really care about collaborating with local archeologists.

 

[Hawk]

Yes, that was my first thought too. Also keeping in mind that these are AD samples not BCE. Population dynamics can change. Compare them to Latins that are R1b-U152 in the Iron Age, in the AD times there would definitely be also absorbed or other lineages.

That's right, let's wait for more context and we can deduce patterns.

 

[mount123]

R3544 Gardun, Croatia J-Z1043+ https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/

Nice to see this Z638>Z631>Z1043 in the heart of Dalmatia.

"Tilurium was an Illyrian fortified settlement of the Delmatae.

Tilurium was the location a Roman cohort in the territory of the Delmatae. The site is now located on the hill of Gardun near Trilj."

Some might be more knowledgable about Gardun's history, so would appreciate if you could provide more info on it.

 

[Hawk]

I have feeling that the E-V13 sample from Croatia was a native Liburni, his autosomal attestes to that, but let's wait for more samples in and around the area, if E-V13 shows more in numbers, especially during EIA, then the Liburni probably had E-V13 as well.

Distance to:	R3745_G25sim
0.02135231	HRV_EIA:I26742
0.02188054	HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ28
0.02188191	SVN_EIA:I5692
0.02341567	ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b
0.02404052	HRV_EIA:I23995
0.02590205	HRV_LIA_La_Tene:I26735
0.02637746	HUN_IA_La_Tene:I25510
0.02661861	HRV_EIA:I23911
0.02669018	ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR109
0.02683462	HRV_EIA:I24882
0.02693762	Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE:I10895
0.02710305	ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
0.02716342	HUN_BA:I7040
0.02771237	HUN_La_Tene:I18491
0.02780191	HRV_MBA:I4331
0.02835847	ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR105
0.02840800	SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12099
0.02849406	HUN_BA:I7043
0.02899867	SVN_EIA:I5691
0.02918528	HUN_IA_La_Tene:I18529
0.02968548	DEU_Roman:FN_2
0.02972332	HRV_EIA:I24639
0.02973758	Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE:I10892
0.03011753	HRV_MBA:I4332
0.03024920	ITA_Collegno_MA:CL94
0.03030058	HUN_LBA:I25504
0.03044316	SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros:I23206
0.03048734	HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ43
0.03066944	ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR55
0.03077947	ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR110
0.03084784	HRV_MBA:I26774
0.03088598	ITA_Etruscan_Casenovole:CSN013
0.03092146	HRV_MBA:I24342
0.03095832	HRV_EIA:I23904
0.03104102	SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean:MOK17A
0.03104872	Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:E09538
0.03111460	HUN_LBA_EIA:I11683
0.03162944	HRV_EIA:I24638
0.03182008	SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros:I23205
0.03217586	ITA_Daunian:ORD009
0.03219537	Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5524
0.03225426	ITA_Etruscan_Casenovole:CSN009
0.03243744	HUN_IA_La_Tene:I18834
0.03276637	HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup:I18259
0.03277571	HUN_IA_La_Tene:I18528
0.03291308	CZE_LBA_Knoviz_o3:I13794
0.03293640	HUN_EIA_Prescythian_Mezocsat:I18239
0.03308259	CHE_IA:SX18
0.03317762	CZE_LBA_Knoviz_o3:I15961
0.03340025	ITA_Collegno_MA:CL23