Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age

[Hawk]

You don’t even know what I stand for, so no point pretending to know through assumptions and grouping me with other people that attack you.

My personal stance is this: I have 0 personal interest where the ancestors of my E-V13 Z5017 lived during Early Bronze Age, how they called themselves, what language they specifically spoke, and what pottery they favoured over the others.

They were part of a bunch of people that lived in the Balkans together, genetically not far off from each other, and the further you go back the more their languages were similar. Sure, some languages might have sounded better than others, but since we will never know how they sounded no point becoming a fangirl of one.

Besides, we all know Autosomal DNA is far more important and I personally am close to both Illyrians, Logkas samples, Cimmerians, Thracians, Etruscan samples, you name it. Do you really I care if my E-V13 ancestor preferred Gava/Psenichevo/Basarabi vases over Glasinac-Mati style? Lol. Don’t get me started on cremation, tumuli, urnfield, whatever other non-DNA related stuff.

The identities we know of today were fully formed around 700 BC onwards, some sooner some later. If Z5017 is found within Illyricum during antiquity, that’s good enough to call it Illyrian because it would indeed be Illyrian autosomally by the time they found it, if not 2-3 generations later.

Anyway, off-topic as usual dragging us into this kind of flame-wars without us wanting it. History don't start from 700 B.C, and your lineage wouldn't be present into those 700 B.C onward cultures if it wasn't for those Early Bronze Age/Middle Bronze Age/Late Bronze Age cultural complex.

 

[Excine]

Nobody has ever said anything about E-V13 "Pelasgian servants" so spare us the strawman arguments. E-V13 is not a steppe haplogroup, but so isn't J-L283 and all other non-steppe haplogroups. IE is a language group, which was influenced by other language groups.


The E-V13 from Zadar is not a Roman colonist and he's not a Liburnian. The Iadasini of Zadar were Illyrians. This is a fact.


In Müller’s edition of Pseudo-Scylax from GGM, the inhabitants of the coast between the Liburni and Chaonia are called ‘Illyrians’: the Hierastamnoi (Iadasinoi), Boullinoi, Hyllaei, Nestoi, Manioi, Autariatas Enkheleis, Taulantioi. The term ἔθνος Ἰλλυρικών (or Ἰλλυρίων) is used generally – describing Illyrians as a wider community, while the smaller groups such as Bulinoi, Manioi, Autariatae, Enchelei, Taulantii are labelled as ‘Illyrian’ (or ‘Illyric’, as Shipley translates it) communities.

The E-V13 from Zadar dates from 22 AD to 121 AD.

Roman Frontier Studies 1969: Proceedings of the Eighth International Congress of Limesforschung, Volume 8:
Iader , for instance , made a colony by Octavian , probably in 33 B.C. , received walls and towers from its founder not before 27,1 ° and probably much later ; they may indeed not have been finished before A.D. 18-19 , when legio VII when legio VII and legio IX were engaged on some form of construction work here , perhaps on the defences of the town .



The time gap before this person's death and his autosomal profile don't allow any room for a "Roman colonist". He was a local. This is a fact.

What bothers you is that your theory that E-V13 won't be found among Illyrians collapsed. Instead of coming up with excuses to deny reality, just accept it.

 

[Hawk]

Funny you insist on Iadasini, chances are equally he was a Liburni.

For the other E-V13 Z5017 sample from Croatia, he doesn't have much of modern matches, they are in Britain, couldn't find anything else.


As for the Timacum Minus. Grave classifications for three Timacium Minus samples, 2 J2b2-L283 and 1 E-V13

Along with the numerous recorded injuries (cuts on thehead and the fused fissure of the right tibia (grave 15),injuries to the processus zygomaticus (grave 26) andinjuries to the head in the region of the asterion (grave123)), what is surely worth mentioning are the cases ofscurvy observed in the individuals buried in graves 28and 76, which would indicate that they moved over tothe Timok valley, or that they resided over a longerperiod of time outside of this fertile area, which couldprovide fruit and vegetables rich in vitamins.Although the grave finds from phase I of the Slognecropolis do not essentially differ from those fromgraves of the subsequent phase (Pl. II–III), the component of the regular Roman army is more prominent,which is reflected in the finds of crossbow fibulae (Pl.II, 1, 6) and bronze belt sets (Pl. III, 1–2). Generally, itis possible that they are members of the same militaryunit, pseudocomitatenses Timacenses auxiliarii, or officers of the II Aurelia Dardanorum equestrian cohort,which unquestionably made up the Timacum Minusgarrison from the middle of the 2nd to the end of the 3rdor the beginning of the 4th century, possibly even to thelast quarter of the 4th century, that is to the Battle ofHadrianopolis in 378.95 However, what should not beruled out are the equestrian units of Numeri Dalmatorum,testified to by stamps on bricks from the 4th phase of thefortification reconstruction, during the period of thereign of Valentinian I and Valens (364–375).96 Thatthey were really warriors is also confirmed by, amongother things, a cut inflicted by a sharp blade, most likely a sword or knife, on the mentum and a fissure of theright tibia (grave 91), an injury on the right femur(grave 99) and a myositis ossificans traumatica notedon the left tibia (grave 141).

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...m-VIDEO/page27?p=638310&viewfull=1#post638310

 

[Archetype0ne]

I am not really sure how you guys don't get tired of this lol.

But anyways if it quacks like a duck, runs like a duck and swims like a duck, its likely a duck.
Already in the first century CE Romans were at war with with Dalmatae and Iapodes in the region, little mention of Histri. Not to mention the battles earlier in the II century BC with Gentius in the south of the province.
From what I gather post Christ they only speak of Liburnian territory. Seems there is very little mention of Histri compared to Iapodes post mid II BC, let alone I AD.

What does the archeological context the sample was found in say?

It really amuses me how many here start whole arguments from conclusions then work their way through sources to justify them rather than the other way around.

As of right now we have 2 Croatian E-V13 samples, infinitely more than we had just a week ago. Could it have been a non Illyrian, maybe. But gotta look at the archeological context and who the sample was found with. As well as the autosomal that does not lie. Meaning that even if in IIBC the forefathers of this individual were Histri, which I personally find 0 evidence for beyond extrapolation with foregone conclusions, by the time this fella died he was as Illyrian as it gets.

 

[mount123]

I would advice everyone to stop derailing this thread and not post off topic stuff. The paper in question does not only include Balkan samples so anyone who is interested in samples from other regions will have a hard time sorting out the posts that they are interested in since there is so much off topic posting by certain users.

Read the above.

 

[kingdavid]

The e-m84 case from bronze age
Armenia is as expected fall on e-pf6751 branch
(Like the late- chl anatolian and syrian bronze age remains and even hazor remain e-pf6751 is a very succesfull branch of e-m84)

Pribislav:
R11675; 1491-1324 BC; Beniamin, Armenia; E-M84>S11387>CTS5265>Y5427>PF6751>Y6186>FT278388* (xFT276527)

P.s
This most downstream branch was found in indian scientific sample back in the day
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FT278388/
Fascinating

 

[torzio]

That was fairly obvious since the Illyrian Iron Age samples and later samples with an East Adriatic migration pattern. It is also evident that J2b-L283 as a whole played an important role in the formation of the Illyrian ethnogenesis during Iron Age as a continuity from the Middle Bronze Age Dalmatian Posusje culture. There is a variety of clades under J2b-L283 in Illyrians.

Well ...people never believed , when I stated 3 years ago that Illyrians pushed south into montenegro and beyond because the Celts where pushing the Illyrians from circa 1000BC in east Austria

 

[torzio]

Ofc it could be part of the Urnfield movement. I'm not talking about that, but this burial is a small child buried as a Roman. For ex. glass balsamarium is totally Roman. According to archeological finds it is from the beginning of the 3rd century AD.

What is dubious is using these Iadasinoi to show that he was a non-Liburnian Illyrian. The only non Liburnian Illyrian groups that had influence were Iapodes and Delmatae, if he was an Illyrian he must have been of Delmatae or Iapodian origin. As we have already Delmatae and even Iapodian IA finds and they are J2b2 this is not likely. Except though Iapodes had some Urnfield influence. But I think Delmatae influences were stronger in that area. It is very unlikely this sample is of Delmatae origin.

There were some tribes mentioned but they were all under the Delmatae, Liburni etc umbrella. So Iadasinoi must have been of Iapodian or Delmatae extraction taking this source as a measure of them being Illyrian.

the Iadasinoi are pure Liburnians ............the term Iadasinoi is a Greek term from Liburnians living in Zadar ( Iader )

In antiquity, Iadera and Iader, the much older roots of the settlement's names were hidden, the names being most probably related to a hydrographical term. It was coined by an ancient Mediterranean people and their Pre-Indo-European language. They transmitted it to later settlers, the Liburnians. The name of the Liburnian settlement was first mentioned by a Greek inscription from Pharos (Stari grad) on the island of Hvar in 384 BC, where the citizens of Zadar were noted as Ίαδασινοί (Iadasinoi). According to the Greek source Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax the city was Ίδασσα (Idassa), probably a vulgar Greek form of the original Liburnian name.



Liburnians are part of Illyrian region set out by Romans, part of Scardona ( modern is Skradin ) .......It was a Liburnian city, named Scardon (Ancient Greek: Σκάρδων).[2] Later it became a Roman town (Scardona in Latin)

 

[torzio]

The Thracian Odryssians did not “smash” anyone in Macedonia. The Illyrians went to plunder and went back, there was no indication of invasion. The only defeat the Odryssians contributed in was when the Illyrians were surrounded in Mount Alma by Caecina Severus.

Otherwise, Roman accounts mention that the Thracian cavalry was broken and fled.

None of this is important to the thread, but you and others are too emotionally attached to the newly found origins (Kosovar and Thracian) that is ruining constructive discussions. You basically have an agenda at this point.

Strangely, I see no reason why would someone feel so proud of the cowardly Odryssians and their king at the time that fought both the Bessi and Illyrians like good Roman lapdogs. Reminds me of the past Ottoman pride some people show.

So please let Riverman take the lead on your theories because as strange as it sounds, you’re too emotionally invested against Illyrian J2b2 and Albanians from Albania just like some other members here.

Thracian Odryssians are the purest Thracians ...............the only Thracians that went with Alexander on his Persian crusade

Dacians, Getae and Moesians are lesser Thracian group

 

[torzio]

Wait a minute.. do you guys know what Thraco-Illyrian is? :amazed: I never thought I'd discover this, but it's when Illyrians and Thracians mix, and create a new group with influences from BOTH. Apparently this happened a lot in the Southern Balkans. I think we might be on to something.

I have only seen it mixed and noted as this in Pannonia ( hungaria ) ...usually also mixed with Celts

 

[Oroku Saki]

Well said, people are quick to make hasty generalizations. It's really sad that the administrators of this forum take no action in getting rid of Huban/Assburg. It's inevitable that he'll have another mental breakdown and bring out his true self of what he thinks about Albanians.

I just hung out with a couple of Macedonian Albanians from Denmark, mentioning them Gjenetika, DNA, etc. Normal people don't think about anything of this, but I did explain them all major points in short. Shortest is that Albanians do have more Illyrian ancestry than any other group by far. But also some of Thraco-Mysian and other ancestries.

They are also rather tall, about 6ft and over. Probably not like 5 ft 6 Excine..

Never had a "mental breakdown". You are confusing being a Pecheneg wild beast with that. Pechenegs were many times described as wild beasts so I have to show some of that sometimes.

I conversed with people from various countries in the past few days, probably had best time with Albanians..

 

[torzio]

I am not really sure how you guys don't get tired of this lol.

But anyways if it quacks like a duck, runs like a duck and swims like a duck, its likely a duck.
Already in the first century CE Romans were at war with with Dalmatae and Iapodes in the region, little mention of Histri. Not to mention the battles earlier in the II century BC with Gentius in the south of the province.
From what I gather post Christ they only speak of Liburnian territory. Seems there is very little mention of Histri compared to Iapodes post mid II BC, let alone I AD.

What does the archeological context the sample was found in say?

It really amuses me how many here start whole arguments from conclusions then work their way through sources to justify them rather than the other way around.

As of right now we have 2 Croatian E-V13 samples, infinitely more than we had just a week ago. Could it have been a non Illyrian, maybe. But gotta look at the archeological context and who the sample was found with. As well as the autosomal that does not lie. Meaning that even if in IIBC the forefathers of this individual were Histri, which I personally find 0 evidence for beyond extrapolation with foregone conclusions, by the time this fella died he was as Illyrian as it gets.

Histri border was their Peninsula and west to modern Oderzo in Veneto ( basically Friuli was Histrian except for some Liburnian towns ) ....Histrian bordered the Venetics , who over time pushed eastwards into Histrian lands , making them venetics

 

[Oroku Saki]

Nobody has ever said anything about E-V13 "Pelasgian servants" so spare us the strawman arguments. E-V13 is not a steppe haplogroup, but so isn't J-L283 and all other non-steppe haplogroups. IE is a language group, which was influenced by other language groups.

E-V13 was apparently found in the vicinity of Steppe carrying Steppe autosomal admixture. LBA sample it seems even carrying more Steppe than any other LBA NE Hungarian sample. So V13 spread IE languages, it wasn't just a dumb mass of farmers waiting to be conquered by other hg's as you and Bruzmi are insinuating.

The E-V13 from Zadar is not a Roman colonist and he's not a Liburnian. The Iadasini of Zadar were Illyrians. This is a fact.

The Iadasini of Zadar were same people as other Liburnians archeologically. So I could say they were Illyrianized Liburnians for all I care. Prove Iadasini were archeologically akin to Delmatae or Iapodes.

The E-V13 from Zadar dates from 22 AD to 121 AD.

Roman Frontier Studies 1969: Proceedings of the Eighth International Congress of Limesforschung, Volume 8:
Iader , for instance , made a colony by Octavian , probably in 33 B.C. , received walls and towers from its founder not before 27,1 ° and probably much later ; they may indeed not have been finished before A.D. 18-19 , when legio VII when legio VII and legio IX were engaged on some form of construction work here , perhaps on the defences of the town .



The time gap before this person's death and his autosomal profile don't allow any room for a "Roman colonist". He was a local. This is a fact.

He could be a local, it was a small child or infant so the date of birth is almost same as the dating.

What bothers you is that your theory that E-V13 won't be found among Illyrians collapsed. Instead of coming up with excuses to deny reality, just accept it.

I never claimed there won't be V13 in Illyrian lands, especially that goes for this clade, E-Y30977 has always been mostly Western Balkans.

Cetina was my old explanation, my newer one was Vucedol. And it could be LBA Urnfield as well.
Urnfield also influenced Iapodes.. Only Delmatae were not. And this sample was not of Delmatae in all likelihood. We have enough samples from their areas.

 

[Hawk]

I don't think Cetina explains, i rather think there is also the chance he is either a Vatin influence on Proto-Illyrians, Koszider hoard influence or general LBA Urnfield.

The Urnfield Culture did affect North-West Croatia and the people probably representing them were Veneti, Histri and partially Liburnians who also had similarities with Dalmatians in burial rite but also this Urnfield LBA influence.

IMO, Riverman's systematic explanation of Late Bronze Age events is the best so far we have. It's simple, elegant and straightforward.

 

[Excine]

I just hung out with a couple of Macedonian Albanians from Denmark, mentioning them Gjenetika, DNA, etc. Normal people don't think about anything of this, but I did explain them all major points in short. Shortest is that Albanians do have more Illyrian ancestry than any other group by far. But also some of Thraco-Mysian and other ancestries.

They are also rather tall, about 6ft and over. Probably not like 5 ft 6 Excine..

Never had a "mental breakdown". You are confusing being a Pecheneg wild beast with that. Pechenegs were many times described as wild beasts so I have to show some of that sometimes.

I conversed with people from various countries in the past few days, probably had best time with Albanians..

Yes, Mr. Assburg/Asperg, you have suffered MULTIPLE meltdowns on this site and others. It is a habit of yours, and the things you say are frightening, if not criminal in nature. It makes no difference to me what sort of Albanians you claim to have interacted with; it has no bearing on your internet reputation. I have seen your peculiar behavior for quite some time now, Pecheneg and such; it is rather disturbing.

 

[Oroku Saki]

Yes, Mr. Assburg/Asperg, you have suffered MULTIPLE meltdowns on this site and others. It is a habit of yours, and the things you say are frightening, if not criminal in nature. It makes no difference to me what sort of Albanians you claim to have interacted with; it has no bearing on your internet reputation. I have seen your peculiar behavior for quite some time now, Pecheneg and such; it is rather disturbing.

Pechenegs were all of that.. The title of one work by a historian is "Scythian (Pecheneg) bandits in Bulgarian desert (modern day Eastern Serbia). I think banditry is and was always "criminal".. Btw Aren't Albanians and Montenegrins known for "criminality"?

The Kanun is "criminal" by modern day standards.. I probably know alot more than you on that topic but I do not agree with various modern principles of "criminality".

I think could live in Medieval times, it seems you couldn't.. Though to me 25th century would be far better than any past.

I research this just to find ancestors which were "cool" i.e. its about something lost which could be brought back to life again. Not really about ancestors just living their "daily lives". That is boring, useless.. And that's most of them.

In our exchange, I was polite and totally responsive to your "arguments" which were just your provocation so could get me banned from here (as if I cared whether I am banned from here that much), Anthrogenica is much larger, I was banned there for "attacking" Bruzmi, because I added to my comment a tag about cognitive dissonance disorder, which was rather appropriate for someone who persistently ignores evidence.

I do not tolerate falsehoods said about my family and large amount of time I invested in our research, for which many have given me thumb ups, as it is based on facts of documentary, genetic, historical and other facts with more coming. I have no problem with any debate but you did not respond to any of my points, which should be deserving of a ban as it is trolling.. Not responding to my points is disrespect directed at me, and at point you become an enemy..

I am very polite and courteous to those who are polite and courteous to me. To those who come up to me with disrespect I am a demon, and I will probably disproportionally retaliate. The point where I became demon came earlier because this site is small, what's the point of writing here when nobody is here..

 

[Oroku Saki]

Who wants to learn Albanian? Excerpts from my Albanian booknote, 2016. All written in black and red. Verbs black outside, white inside in Alb. English in red. Nouns Alb. red, Eng. translation black. Adverbs, Conjunctions etc. black outside, red inside, Eng. black. When I learned Swedish it was all in blue and yellow for ex. I added few Hubans, and I even drew Oroku Saki's helmet on one page.

The main point is, of course I respect and like the things in which I have invested plenty of time and attention. Something many of you do not understand. I am a world person literally.

 

[Hawk]

Another sample from Viminacium. Interesting subclade, on top sitting an Armenian and the rest all from Western Europe. But, i refrain to make conclusions from yfull solely.

Another potential native Geto-Dacian likely, but could be equally Celtic La Tene in origin as well.

R3931; 130-231 AD; Viminacium, Serbia; E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>Z16242>pre-Y178966

 

[mount123]

R9673; 79-213 AD

Very unusual result from Viminacium and don't know what to think of this. A soldier with origins from up North East? Or Bezdanjaca cave 2.0 situation His autosomal results will be interesting.

 

[Hawk]

Another sample from Viminacium. Interesting subclade, on top sitting an Armenian and the rest all from Western Europe. But, i refrain to make conclusions from yfull solely.

Another potential native Geto-Dacian likely, but could be equally Celtic La Tene in origin as well.

R3931; 130-231 AD; Viminacium, Serbia; E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>Z16242>pre-Y178966

Potentially an Albanian from Ferizaj has same subclade as well.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...of-E-V13/page3?p=557598&viewfull=1#post557598