Tepe Hasanlu F38 belongs to R1b1a2a2-CTS1078/Z2103 ( Zagros - Iron Age )

berun said:
Good for the expected geographical extension of such clade, but the nucleus was in the south...

And science is like a big mammouth, difficult to take him to change its position: now there are 2 "Yamnayan" R1b among no indoeuropean peoples, one before any steppe expansion, the other before such expansion arrived.

Even the Yamnaya R1b clade were not going to nowhere. Once such culture was erased by R1a there was nothing left from them in other places, and as in Iran, it was overruned by R1a true Indoeuropeans.
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Why don't you write a history book and population genetics, and teach people how it went around. The rest of us will gladly follow the unfolding facts of latest research to understand the past.
 
tbh I doubt Indo_Iranians had no R1b though. However I did point out the similarities between those Hurro_Urartaens and Indo_europeans. From the Swastika to Teshub the Thunder god which seems to be the origin of the Celtic Taranis, Germanic Thor, Hittite Tarru and Greek Zeus.
 
bicicleur said:
it's a pitty we don't have 'Levant Neolithic' and 'Iran Mesolithic' in this PCA

F2.large.jpg
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Are there some symbols missing from the Legend? Symbols from ovals don't have explanation in the Legend of Ancient Samples.
 
Tomenable said:
Abstract:

We sequenced Early Neolithic genomes from the Zagros region of Iran (eastern Fertile Crescent), where some of the earliest evidence for farming is found, and identify a previously uncharacterized population that is neither ancestral to the first European farmers nor has contributed significantly to the ancestry of modern Europeans. These people are estimated to have separated from Early Neolithic farmers in Anatolia some 46-77,000 years ago and show affinities to modern day Pakistani and Afghan populations, but particularly to Iranian Zoroastrians. We conclude that multiple, genetically differentiated hunter-gatherer populations adopted farming in SW-Asia, that components of pre-Neolithic population structure were preserved as farming spread into neighboring regions, and that the Zagros region was the cradle of eastward expansion.
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Am I smart or am I smart, lol. Nice vindication. This was the only thing I questioned in latest Lazaridis paper and I was right. It is really hard to question something in a paper written by scientists of such high caliber, not to make an ass of self, and at the end to be right.
It points to a caution about blindly believing in modeling of ancestral population. This is more of sophisticated guessing than a sure thing. To give some credit to Lazaridis in this regard, they surely mentioned that this was of a very low probability. And it turned out that it was.

So Anatolian Neolithic doesn't contain Iranian Neolithic, in genetic sense not cultural, at least in any substantial amounts. It was also confirmed by Lorente et al, and this paper.
 
berun said:
And science is like a big mammouth, difficult to take him to change its position: now there are 2 "Yamnayan" R1b among no indoeuropean peoples, one before any steppe expansion, the other before such expansion arrived.
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who is the Yamna R1b before steppe expansion?
 
bicicleur said:
we have another R1b-Z2103 in Armenia, same time period
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What culture did that R1b from Kapan belong to ???
 
Tomenable said:
There is an Iron Age sample of R1b-Z2103 in this study, from a Mannean burial.

Do we have his autosomal DNA to see if the guy was Steppe-admixed ???

Manneans were Non-IE speakers (as were the Kura-Araxes people, among whom another R1b sample was found previously). If they were subjected to an ever increasing Iranian influence, then we would expect to find the Indo-Iranian marker R1a-Z93:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannaeans#Ethnicity

Kura-Araxes were Hurro-Urartian speakers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura–Araxes_culture#Ethno-linguistic_makeup

Here is my map of attested Non-IE languages of the Middle East, with Manneans in North-Western Iran:

https://s30.postimg.org/pmjclmks1/Languages+of+ME.png

Languages+of+ME.png


Many linguists suggest that Hurrian, Urartian and Mannean languages were related (parts of the same family). This is why the map posted above shows all of them painted with the same colour. Kassite-speakers were likely also related:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurro-Urartian_languages#Use

We have R1b from Hurro-Urartian speaking Kura-Araxes, and another R1b from Mannean-speakers.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32264-R1b-M269-L23-and-the-diffusion-of-early-metallurgy
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Looking at this linguistic map...........it is slightly in error by leaving out Luwian

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luwian_language


Using this map, and the luwian, according to the paper, the Hurro and the luwian areas is where farming began before moving into the "fertile crescent " proper.
 
Tomenable said:
What culture did that R1b from Kapan belong to ???
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where gutian is on your map ..............but really amongst the Lurs people

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs

Considering their NRY variation, the Lurs are distinguished from other Iranian groups by their relatively elevated frequency of Y-DNA Haplogroup R1b (specifically, of subclade R1b1a2a-L23).[11] Together with its other clades, the R1 group comprises the single most common haplogroup among the Lurs.[11][12] Haplogroup J2a (subclades J2a3a-M47, J2a3b-M67, J2a3h-M530, more specifically) is the second most commonly occurring patrilineage in the Lurs and is associated with the diffusion of agriculturalists from the Neolithic Near East c. 8000-4000 BCE.[12][13][14][15] Another haplogroup reaching a frequency above 10% is that of G2a, with subclade G2a3b accounting for most of this.[16] Also significant is haplogroup E1b1b1a1b, for which the Lurs display the highest frequency in Iran.[16] Lineages Q1b1 and Q1a3 present at 6%, and T at 4%.[16]



They have all the main Euro Ydna groups in one group
 
@Lebrok, in fact I like more fiction, and taking as example that of Yamnayan Indoeuropeans, I would need to choose between "The cradle of Indoeuropeans: Atlantis", because who could get ancient DNA from Atlantis to check if it matches the L51+ ? The plot would be that Atlanteans flied from their continent to Western Europe riding sirens... the other plot would be "The Saharan secrets, the Indoeuropean exodus", and as R1b V88 is in the Sahel... why not R1b L51+ was there also? then after the dissication of the Sahara the two brother clades split, one going to the south, the other to the north, to W. Europe... no archaeological proofs for that? well, Yamnayans also are not suppling proofs so I think the scientific standards will be keept good yet, and WTF, the first Bell Beakers were more near to Africa than to the steppe, even more credible...

@bicicleur, the first R1b "Yamnayan" is the Z2016+ found in Armenia of the Kura-Araxes culture (maybe proto-Hurrian), the second one would be the Manean recently provided (Manean possibly related to Hurro-Urartian), and also it seems that it could be added the proto-Urartian of Kapan, in Armenia, which has a date similar to the Tepe Hasanlu DNA and it's relatively quite near of him. I suppose that a good Yamnayist would deal with them thinking that they were IE herders wandering there looking for a lost sheep.
 
berun said:
@Lebrok, in fact I like more fiction, and taking as example that of Yamnayan Indoeuropeans, I would need to choose between "The cradle of Indoeuropeans: Atlantis", because who could get ancient DNA from Atlantis to check if it matches the L51+ ? The plot would be that Atlanteans flied from their continent to Western Europe riding sirens... the other plot would be "The Saharan secrets, the Indoeuropean exodus", and as R1b V88 is in the Sahel... why not R1b L51+ was there also? then after the dissication of the Sahara the two brother clades split, one going to the south, the other to the north, to W. Europe... no archaeological proofs for that? well, Yamnayans also are not suppling proofs so I think the scientific standards will be keept good yet, and WTF, the first Bell Beakers were more near to Africa than to the steppe, even more credible...

@bicicleur, the first R1b "Yamnayan" is the Z2016+ found in Armenia of the Kura-Araxes culture (maybe proto-Hurrian), the second one would be the Manean recently provided (Manean possibly related to Hurro-Urartian), and also it seems that it could be added the proto-Urartian of Kapan, in Armenia, which has a date similar to the Tepe Hasanlu DNA and it's relatively quite near of him. I suppose that a good Yamnayist would deal with them thinking that they were IE herders wandering there looking for a lost sheep.
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It pretty much says it all. I rest my case.
 
Alan said:
But @bicicleur we have also Early Bronze Age R1b in Kura Araxes that predates any Indo EUropean movement into that region.

Some bloggers might call all of these "confused Steppe man". I am thinking this is no coincidence. Hurro_Urartaen shows strong cultural similarities to Indo Europeans I have elloborated this quite a few times.

Phrygians were not Greek speakers
Also I am not aware of any Phrygian settlements that far East by 900 BC. However I could be wrong.
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well not Greek but similar

Inscriptions found at Gordium make clear that Phrygians spoke an Indo-European language with at least some vocabulary similar to Greek, and clearly not belonging to the family ofAnatolian languages spoken by most of Phrygia's neighbors.

The Eastern Muski appear to have moved into Hatti in the 12th century BC, completing the downfall of the collapsing Hittite state, along with various Sea Peoples. They established themselves in a post-Hittite kingdom in Cappadocia.
Whether they moved into the core Hittite areas from the east or west has been a matter of some discussion by historians. Some speculate that they may have originally occupied a territory in the area of Urartu; alternatively, ancient accounts suggest that they first arrived from a homeland in the west (as part of the Armeno-Phrygian migration), from the region of Troy, or even from as far as Macedonia, as the Bryges.
Together with the Hurrians and Kaskas, they invaded the Assyrian provinces of Alzi and Puruhuzzi in about 1160 BC, but they were pushed back and defeated, along with the Kaskas, byTiglath-Pileser I in 1115 BC, who until 1110 BC advanced as far as Milid.


The apparent similarity of the Phrygian language to Greek and its dissimilarity with the Anatolian languages spoken by most of their neighbors is also taken as support for a European origin of the Phrygians. Phrygian continued to be spoken until sixth century AD, though its distinctive alphabet was lost earlier than those of most Anatolian cultures.[1]
Some scholars have theorized that such a migration could have occurred more recently than classical sources suggest, and have sought to fit the Phrygian arrival into a narrative explaining the downfall of the Hittite Empire and the end of the high Bronze Age in Anatolia.[8] According to this "recent migration" theory, the Phrygians invaded just before or after the collapse of the Hittite Empire at the beginning of the 12th century BC, filling the political vacuum in central-western Anatolia, and may have been counted among the "Sea Peoples" that Egyptian records credit with bringing about the Hittite collapse. The so-called Handmade Knobbed Ware found in Western Anatolia during this period has been tentatively identified as an import connected to this invasion.

Urartu was destroyed in either 590 BC[33] or 585 BC.[34] By the late 6th century, Urartu had certainly been replaced by Armenia.[35]

Little is known of what happened to the region of Urartu under the foreign rule following its fall. The most widely accepted theory is that settlers related to Phrygians, or more specifically tribes speaking a Proto-Armenian language conventionally named Armeno-Phrygian who had already settled in the western parts of the region prior to the establishment of Urartu,[36] had become the ruling elite under the Median Empire, followed by the Achaemenid Empire.[37] These Armeno-Phrygians would have mingled with the disparate peoples of Urartu, resulting a fusion of languages and cultures.

as for R1b in Kura Araxes I don't think it was M-269 or M-73, so it was not IE

I've always believed R1b and R1a were along the southern Caspian Sea 15 ka.
But allready by the youngest dryas some tribes moved north of the Caucasus, long before PIE was spoken.
Iron Age R1b-Z2013 is a backmigration of Yamna R1b from the steppe to Anatolia, as Yamna people were ousted by Sintashta warriors.
 
berun said:
@bicicleur, the first R1b "Yamnayan" is the Z2016+ found in Armenia of the Kura-Araxes culture (maybe proto-Hurrian), the second one would be the Manean recently provided (Manean possibly related to Hurro-Urartian), and also it seems that it could be added the proto-Urartian of Kapan, in Armenia, which has a date similar to the Tepe Hasanlu DNA and it's relatively quite near of him. I suppose that a good Yamnayist would deal with them thinking that they were IE herders wandering there looking for a lost sheep.
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the Armenian Kura-Araxes R1b was not Z2016, the LBA Armenian was R1b-Z2103
 
bicicleur said:
the Armenian Kura-Araxes R1b was not Z2016, the LBA Armenian was R1b-Z2103
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Neither were any of the late Neolithic Samara culture samples, but somehow hardcore Steppists insist that the Z2103 came from there. We now have R1bs all around the Caspian (as I and some other predicted) but non of them Z2103 prior to attested Indo European movement. However we have at least some Z2103 in Bronze Age Transcaucasus with actually no sign of Steppic infux (if any it must be very ancient because it doesn't exceed that found in the CHG, contrary is slightly weaker somehow).

Maykop and BMAC samples are still missing. We have R1b in Kura Araxes. R1b in Yamnaya. Who bets we will find R1b in Maykop?
 
Ancient Y-DNA samples from Armenia and from Iran known so far:

Armenia (3 x R1b):

I1407 - 4350-3700 BC (Areni-1) - L1a-M76
I1634 - 4330-3060 BC (Areni-1) - L1a-M76
I1632 - 4230-4000 BC (Areni-1) - L1a-M27
I1635 - 2619-2465 BC (Kalavan) - R1b1a1b-CTS3187
RISE416 - 1943-1445 BC (Nerquin Getashen) - E1b1b1b2a1a-L788
RISE413 - 1906-1698 BC (Nerquin Getashen) - R1b1a2-M269 (?)
RISE423 - 1402-1211 BC (Nerquin Getashen) - E1b1b1b2a1a-L795
RISE408 - 1209-1009 BC (Norabak) - J2b2a-Z590
RISE397 - 1048-855 BC (Kapan) - R1b1a2a2-Z2103

Iran (1 x R1b):

I1293 - 9100-8600 BC (Huto Cave) - J2a-CTS1085
AH2 - 8205-7756 BC - (Tepe Abdul Hosein) - J2b-M12*
I1949 - 8000-7700 BC (Ganj Dareh) - R2-M479
I1945 - 8000-7700 BC (Ganj Dareh) - R2a-Y3399
WC1 - 7455-7082 BC (Wezmeh Cave) - G2b-Z8015
I1671 - 5850-5650 BC (Seh Gabi) - G2a1a-FGC602
I1662 - 4850-3800 BC (Seh Gabi) - J2a2-PF5008
I1674 - 4850-3800 BC (Seh Gabi) - G1a1b-GG372
F38 - 971-832 BC (Hasanlu IVb) - R1b1a2a2-Z2103
 
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And yet one more:

RISE416 - 1943-1445 BC (Nerquin Getashen) - E1b1b1b2a1a-L788
 
Samples from Nerquin Getashen = Trialeti culture or Sevan-Uzerlik culture.
 
Tomenable said:
Ancient Y-DNA samples from Armenia and from Iran known so far:

Armenia (3 x R1b):


RISE413 - 1906-1698 BC (Nerquin Getashen) - R1b1a2-M269 (?)
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I have R1b1 (M415/PF6251+ SK2063/FGC21034/V2197-, Y5586- FGC3890/Y11839-)

Middle Bronze AgeArmeniaNerquin Getashen [RISE413]M1906-1698 BCR1bR1b1 (M415/PF6251+ SK2063/FGC21034/V2197-, Y5586- FGC3890/Y11839-)T2c1fAllentoft 2015; Y-DNA pers. comm. from author + additional info from Felix Emmanuel and Vladimir Tagankin
 
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