Tepe Hasanlu F38 belongs to R1b1a2a2-CTS1078/Z2103 ( Zagros - Iron Age )

bicicleur said:
that is what I meant

R1b was replaced by R1a on the Pontic steppe


furthermore Medes/Persians and Parni were descendants of Andronovo people, just like Scyths
Click to expand...

Does Medea have R1a-z93?
Do you think that R1a1a start from Iran? or Did scythian bring it in Iran?
 
@bicicleur, the examples provided of R1b are mainly of BB yes? and that of Sweden is after the BB presence in the area yes? do you know that the BB culture had a western origin? how I need to accept that such R1b was from the east? and even worse when the previous culture CW was R1a which kindly indicates the exogenous nature of these R1b... and such R1b clades are not those found in the steppes of the third millennium, because as already explained such clades clearly pinpoint to a Trans-Caucasian origin and are quite different from those of Western Europe. What is more, autosomal DNA of the CW is not Yamnayan (the genetists explained that it was similar to Yamnaya but I think that they might have writen better something like "you archaeologists are wrong so start to dig up more and better before to write anything"). By the way we have a neolithic herder R1b in the Pyrenees and a mesolithic HG R1b in the Alps, maybe they have something to say about such German R1b, don't forget them...
 
berun said:
@bicicleur, the examples provided of R1b are mainly of BB yes? and that of Sweden is after the BB presence in the area yes? do you know that the BB culture had a western origin? how I need to accept that such R1b was from the east? and even worse when the previous culture CW was R1a which kindly indicates the exogenous nature of these R1b... and such R1b clades are not those found in the steppes of the third millennium, because as already explained such clades clearly pinpoint to a Trans-Caucasian origin and are quite different from those of Western Europe. What is more, autosomal DNA of the CW is not Yamnayan (the genetists explained that it was similar to Yamnaya but I think that they might have writen better something like "you archaeologists are wrong so start to dig up more and better before to write anything"). By the way we have a neolithic herder R1b in the Pyrenees and a mesolithic HG R1b in the Alps, maybe they have something to say about such German R1b, don't forget them...
Click to expand...

indeed, all earliest confirmed R1b-M269 in Europe is BB or BB-derived and all anciant BB DNA is R1b-M269 or R1b without M269 tested
no R1b-M269 before BB was found in Europe
so how can you claim a western origin of BB then?

this is the oldest confirmed European R1b-M269 I know which is not BB :

Gáta/WieslburgHungaryM85 Enese elkerül? 02. Kóny, Proletár-d?l? II [KON 6]
1770-1760 BCR1b1a2M269U5b1Szécsényi-Nagy 2015 thesis


the spread of R1b-M269 in Europe started in an area where there was no R1a
it looks like most R1b-M269 in Europe was spread through BB, but not all

what is the autosomal make-up of CW?
can you tell me? what source do you have?
 
bicicleur said:
Mitanni were Hurrite
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Mitanni main language was Hurrite but what the people were is unknown. There are Indo_Iranic deitis being mentioned in a treaty between Mitanni and the Hittites such as Mithra, Varna, Nasatya and Indra. Obviously you wouldn't do this because of a few Horse trainers.

but there is the text of Kikkuli the horse trainer who introduced Indic loanwords into Mitanni language

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kikkuli
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Mitanni did not introduced "Indic" loanwords. Indic is a Hindu language a subbranch of Indo_Aryan that evolved in India. Mitanni didn't came from India. As I said it is mere speculation if the Mitanni were even Indo_Aryan or basically undivided archaic Indo_Iranian. The suggestion of Indo_Aryan is merely based on the fact that the Indo_Iranian words among Mitanni are so archaic and the deities are nowadays more common in India. But we actually know from linguistic point of view, that Indo_aryan itself is more archaic than Iranic. Therefore if we are dealing with an undivided Indo_Iranian branch linguistically seen it is common sense that it will be closer to Indo_aryan since Indo_Aryan at far less loudshifts than Iranic.
Just few years ago everyone was so convinced that Sintashta is Proto_Indo_Iranian. Turns out genetically (as well even linguistically) Srubna, Yaz and likely Kura_Araxes makes even more sense, and SIntashta seems like a dead end of some early Indo_Iranian culture.
Mitanni had nothing to do with Medes origin
Click to expand...

I am not basing my Mitanni=Medes connection on personal speculation but historical facts and accounts. Such as Persian as well Greek, such as Heroduts which simply connect the Mitanni, Matiene and Medes as the same people or at least related of same stock.
 
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@bicicleur, the Hungarian sample is very recent, post-BB, and I can't use it. The western origin for the Y-DNA in BB is supported by mtDNA, autosomal and archaeological facts, not ideas.

For the CW case, in the Haak paper they say

We caution that the sampled Yamnaya individuals from Samara might not be directly ancestral to Corded Ware individuals from Germany. It is possible that a more western Yamnaya population, or an earlier (pre-Yamnaya) steppe population may have migrated into central Europe, and future work may uncover more missing links in the chain of transmission of steppe ancestry.
Click to expand...

Everything is left on the air with that; and what is more good is that if steppe herders were as much 100000 (counting women and kids), their expansion was from a even little bunch... by that I would prefer to read about the Mayan and Egyptian piramids made by Atlantis survivors... at least is more entertaining.
 
berun said:
@bicicleur, the Hungarian sample is very recent, post-BB, and I can't use it. The western origin for the Y-DNA in BB is supported by mtDNA, autosomal and archaeological facts, not ideas.

For the CW case, in the Haak paper they say



Everything is left on the air with that; and what is more good is that if steppe herders were as much 100000 (counting women and kids), their expansion was from a even little bunch... by that I would prefer to read about the Mayan and Egyptian piramids made by Atlantis survivors... at least is more entertaining.
Click to expand...

you're right, I didn't express myself clear
BB culture started in Portugal
what I meant is that the R1b-M269 people who spread BB couldn't have been indogenous European

what the Haak paper says fits with what I told :

'R1a-M417 lived in the forest-steppe area north of the Pontic steppe, they adopted IE language and IE herding economy ca 5 ka'

these R1a were not the same as the R1b Pontic steppe people
that is also what David Anthony suggested in his book

and yes it started with a small population, at least on the male side
all CW and Sintashta and Andronovo consisted of just 2-3 subclades of R1a-M417

R1a-tree.gif
 
Guys genetiker has made an admixture run and there are good f3 stats in the supplements


This Hasanlu F38 can be remnant of IA Mushki expansion. The absence of strong Levantine affinities means he was not from Armenia MLBA and certainly not places close to Levant. Most probably from North East Anatolia.

This is top5 of f3 stat
Georgian
Abkhazian
Armenian
Albanian
Iran_Zoroastrian
 
Arame said:
Guys genetiker has made an admixture run and there are good f3 stats in the supplements


This Hasanlu F38 can be remnant of IA Mushki expansion. The absence of strong Levantine affinities means he was not from Armenia MLBA and certainly not places close to Levant. Most probably from North East Anatolia.

This is top5 of f3 stat
Georgian
Abkhazian
Armenian
Albanian
Iran_Zoroastrian
Click to expand...

comparison with present population has little sense
and if so, I could easily relate them to Mushki coming from Balkan or Carpath Basin
the expansion went as far as Georgia and NW Iran
and the Albanians were related with those who stayed in Balkan or Carpath Basin
 
Western R1b could be perfectly exogenous if they came along neolithic farmers; I agree with the R1a expansion, which in fact don't need Yamnayans at all. What is very doubtful is that the Yamnayans language was IE, that is a theory that is making all this issue more dumb and provoking a lot of mistakes to linguists and genetists. If i would be guided only by Y DNA, their language would be a northerner expansion of Hurrian related languages extinguished by the true IE expansion.

@arame, I think that Iran_Neolithic also were devoid of levantine component. By the way Mushkis (Phrygians) were in Central Anatolia and we don't know any attack so eastern before 800 BC
 
berun said:
Western R1b could be perfectly exogenous if they came along neolithic farmers; I agree with the R1a expansion, which in fact don't need Yamnayans at all. What is very doubtful is that the Yamnayans language was IE, that is a theory that is making all this issue more dumb and provoking a lot of mistakes to linguists and genetists. If i would be guided only by Y DNA, their language would be a northerner expansion of Hurrian related languages extinguished by the true IE expansion.

@arame, I think that Iran_Neolithic also were devoid of levantine component. By the way Mushkis (Phrygians) were in Central Anatolia and we don't know any attack so eastern before 800 BC
Click to expand...

we have a lot of European Neolithic farmers Y-DNA
2/3 are G2a2a, then there is I, C1a2, H2 and T, few E and no R
some R1b appears in pre-beaker Iberian chalcolithic, but none of them are confirmed R1b-M269 yet
the Iberian chalcolithic existed 3-400 years before BB

apart from BB, Vucedol culture was probably also R1b-M269, mixed with I

it looks like the spread of IE language in western Europe, in particular Celtic was linked with R1b-M269
the spread of Celtic is a complicated matter though as much of it is sweeped out
 
about the Mushki, in their attack on the Assyrians, they were allies with Hurrians
I know of 2 Hurrian kingdoms : Mitanni and Urartu
Urartu was likely a multi-ethnic state with a Hurrian ruling dynasty till an Armenian dynasty took over
but the whole history remains very unclear
 
berun said:
Western R1b could be perfectly exogenous if they came along neolithic farmers; I agree with the R1a expansion, which in fact don't need Yamnayans at all. What is very doubtful is that the Yamnayans language was IE, that is a theory that is making all this issue more dumb and provoking a lot of mistakes to linguists and genetists. If i would be guided only by Y DNA, their language would be a northerner expansion of Hurrian related languages extinguished by the true IE expansion.

@arame, I think that Iran_Neolithic also were devoid of levantine component. By the way Mushkis (Phrygians) were in Central Anatolia and we don't know any attack so eastern before 800 BC
Click to expand...

Indeed Iran_Neo was devoid of Levantine_Neo. Since there are still today populations that are pretty much isolated Iran_Neo like. We can expect that by Iron Age also there were some isolated Iran_Neo like groups. The Mushki connection is mere speculation also. No one knows if this connection is true or not.

F38 looks simply like a not Steppe shifted Kurdish sample. On the PCA it pretty much plots there were Kurds would plot.
 
@bicicleur, that is the case, we have a lot of farmer Y DNA but very few of neolithic herders, and when we have, like that of the Trocs, relation of Hg change dramaticaly. For the Celtic spread I follow archaeologists and linguists linking it to the Urnfield / Hallstadt / Laténe complex... which explain satisfactory the expansion of such languages: as for IE it's not necessary Yamna, for Celtic is not necessary BB.
 
berun said:
Western R1b could be perfectly exogenous if they came along neolithic farmers; I agree with the R1a expansion, which in fact don't need Yamnayans at all. What is very doubtful is that the Yamnayans language was IE, that is a theory that is making all this issue more dumb and provoking a lot of mistakes to linguists and genetists. If i would be guided only by Y DNA, their language would be a northerner expansion of Hurrian related languages extinguished by the true IE expansion.

@arame, I think that Iran_Neolithic also were devoid of levantine component. By the way Mushkis (Phrygians) were in Central Anatolia and we don't know any attack so eastern before 800 BC
Click to expand...

Iran_Neolithic came from South-Asia and especially dravidian area
 
bicicleur said:
we have a lot of European Neolithic farmers Y-DNA
2/3 are G2a2a, then there is I, C1a2, H2 and T, few E and no R
some R1b appears in pre-beaker Iberian chalcolithic, but none of them are confirmed R1b-M269 yet
the Iberian chalcolithic existed 3-400 years before BB

apart from BB, Vucedol culture was probably also R1b-M269, mixed with I

it looks like the spread of IE language in western Europe, in particular Celtic was linked with R1b-M269
the spread of Celtic is a complicated matter though as much of it is sweeped out
Click to expand...

Vucedol culture is noted as proto-illyrian culture beginning in pannonia ( modern Hungaria ), it has very little R1b that I can see , but has a lot of I2
 
Iran_Neolithic can't came from South-Asia if the first dates about 8000 BC and the second one by about 5000 BC, it is more the contrary. For Vucedol I don't know well Balkan cultures but which cultural traits prove their Illyrianism or IE ? I can't detect.
 
Sile said:
Vucedol culture is noted as proto-illyrian culture beginning in pannonia ( modern Hungaria ), it has very little R1b that I can see , but has a lot of I2
Click to expand...

I believe the Carpathian Basin was a melting pot :

Starcevo-Köros was a melting pot between mainly G2a2 farmers and I2 HG, resulting in Vinca culture.

Vucedol was a melting pot between R1b steppe people and I2 natives.


VucedolHungaryLánycsók, Csata-alja [M6-116.8]
2860-2620 BCR1bM343+T2b23Szécsényi-Nagy 2015 thesis
VucedolHungaryLánycsók, Csata-alja [M6-116.10]
2860-2620 BCI2a2aM223+H5Szécsényi-Nagy 2015 thesis
 
berun said:
@bicicleur, that is the case, we have a lot of farmer Y DNA but very few of neolithic herders, and when we have, like that of the Trocs, relation of Hg change dramaticaly. For the Celtic spread I follow archaeologists and linguists linking it to the Urnfield / Hallstadt / Laténe complex... which explain satisfactory the expansion of such languages: as for IE it's not necessary Yamna, for Celtic is not necessary BB.
Click to expand...

indeed IMO Els Trocs is not related to Cardial/Impressed Ware neolithic
they were herders and maybe the came from Africa and crossed the Gibraltar strait

there was a 2nd wave of neolithic invasion in Europe, maybe from SW Asia, maybe from the Carpathian Basin
the brought herding and oxens as draught animals
but the Y-DNA of megalithic sites, Sopot and TRB is not much different from the early neolithic European Y-DNA

as for the spread of Celtic there are a few questions :

Early BronzeNorthern IrelandGlebe, Rathlin Island [Rathlin1]M2026–1885 BCR1b1a2a1a2c1gL21/M529/S145 > DF13/S521 > DF21/S192U5a1b1eCassidy 2015
Early BronzeNorthern IrelandGlebe, Rathlin Island [Rathlin2]M2024–1741 BCR1b1a2a1a2c1L21/M529/S145 > DF13/S521U5b2a2Cassidy 2015
Early BronzeNorthern IrelandGlebe, Rathlin Island [Rathlin3]M1736–1534 BCR1b1a2a1a2cL21/M529/S145J2b1aCassidy 2015

this is 2000 BC
their Y-DNA is the same as today in Ireland, Brittany, Wales and eastern England
those people spoke Celtic
did they allready 2000 BC?
it can't be explained by Urnfield etc.
these people had trade relations with Nordic bronze before Urnfield
after the invasion of Urnfield people trade with Nordic bronze was disturbed but there was the 'Atlantic bronze' trade
this would perfectly explain the distribution of R1b-L21 over Europe


then there is the question of the king of Tartessos who had a Celtic name (allthough the population didn't speak Celtic)
 
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