Tepe Hasanlu F38 belongs to R1b1a2a2-CTS1078/Z2103 ( Zagros - Iron Age )

[bicicleur 2]

Mitanni main language was Hurrite but what the people were is unknown. There are Indo_Iranic deitis being mentioned in a treaty between Mitanni and the Hittites such as Mithra, Varna, Nasatya and Indra. Obviously you wouldn't do this because of a few Horse trainers.



Mitanni did not introduced "Indic" loanwords. Indic is a Hindu language a subbranch of Indo_Aryan that evolved in India. Mitanni didn't came from India. As I said it is mere speculation if the Mitanni were even Indo_Aryan or basically undivided archaic Indo_Iranian. The suggestion of Indo_Aryan is merely based on the fact that the Indo_Iranian words among Mitanni are so archaic and the deities are nowadays more common in India. But we actually know from linguistic point of view, that Indo_aryan itself is more archaic than Iranic. Therefore if we are dealing with an undivided Indo_Iranian branch linguistically seen it is common sense that it will be closer to Indo_aryan since Indo_Aryan at far less loudshifts than Iranic.

Kikkuli was a Mittani horse trainer who translated a manual for horse training from Mittani to Hittite language
For many technical terms there was no Mittani word nor Hittite word. For these terms Indic words were used in the manual.
So horse training for charriots was probably introduced in the Mittani kingdom by Indic people.

I think Indic did not develop in India, but in Bactria prior to the Vedic invasion into India.

 

[berun]

Els Trocs was Cardial Culture, you can check out the paper.

Linking R1b L51 to Celtic you have a big problem: the undeniable Celtic samples of Germany that belong to the Urnfield Culture were I2 or alike.

Argantonios reference was about 600 BC, so some six centuries after the Celts (Urnfield) crossed the Pyrenees. South Portugal was inhabited by then by Celtici, Cunetes or Baeturi, Celtic peoples.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Els Trocs cave was a shelter for herders.
There is contemporay mtDNA from NW Iberia which is not European HG mtDNA (U5), I wonder how it got there :

				Y DNA		mtDNA
Spain	Paternanbidea, Navarra [PAT-1E3, PAT-2E1]	M & F	5700-4700 BC			H	Hervella 2009;2012; 2014
Spain	Paternanbidea, Navarra [PAT-1E5]	inf	5700-4700 BC			H	Hervella 2009;2012; 2014
Spain	Paternanbidea, Navarra [PAT-4E1]	M	5700-4700 BC			I	Hervella 2009;2012; 2014
Spain	Paternanbidea, Navarra [PAT-2E2]	F	5700-4700 BC			K	Hervella 2009;2012; 2014
Spain	Els Trocs [I0409/Troc 1]	F	5311-5218 BC			J1c3	Haak 2015; Mathieson 2015
Spain	Els Trocs [I0412/Troc 5]	M	5310-5206 BC	I2a1b1	L161+, CTS1293+,	N1a1a1	Haak 2015; Mathieson 2015
Spain	Els Trocs [I0413/Troc 7]	F	5303-5204 BC			V	Haak 2015; Mathieson 2015
Spain	Els Trocs [I0410/Troc 3]	M	5178-5066 BC	R1b1c	M415+, M343+, [L754 equivalent: L774/PF6245/YSC277+, PF1144+, V88 eqivalent: PF6376+], M478-, PF6399-, L265-, L150-, M269-, V35-, V69-	T2c1d or T2c1d2	Haak 2015; personal comm Sergey Malyshev, review of Y-DNA raw data; Mathieson 2015
Spain	Els Trocs [I0411/Troc 4]	M	5177-5068 BC	F (xG, I1, I2a, J, L1b2, T, O2b, Q1a2a, Q1b1, R1a1a, R1b1c2)	P135+, F1551-, M450-, S247-, CTS26-, YSC0000228-, M274-, PF5607-, CTS5268-, CTS7749-, L475-, FGC1861-, L449-, V35-	K1a2a	Haak 2015; Mathieson 2015
Spain	Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-21, CAS-48, CAS-90, CAS-196]		5120-3880 BC			H	Hervella 2012;2014
Spain	Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-70, CAS 216, CAS 254, CAS-258]		5120-3880 BC			H?	Hervella 2012;2014
Spain	Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-33, CAS-182, CAS-497]		5120-3880 BC			H	Hervella 2012;2014
Spain	Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-173, CAS-222, CAS-341]		5120-3880 BC			H	Hervella 2012;2014
Spain	Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-193S, CAS-194]		5120-3880 BC			H	Hervella 2012;2014
Spain	Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-148]		5120-3880 BC			U	Hervella 2012;2014
Spain	Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-204]		5120-3880 BC			U	Hervella 2012;2014
Spain	Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-183]		5120-3880 BC			U	Hervella 2012;2014
Spain	Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-517]		5120-3880 BC			U	Hervella 2012;2014
Spain	Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-181, CAS-191, CAS-202 ]		5120-3880 BC			K	Hervella 2012;2014
Spain	Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-179]		5120-3880 BC			J	Hervella 2012;2014
Spain	Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-203]		5120-3880 BC			J	Hervella 2012;2014
Spain	Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-180]		5120-3880 BC			T2	Hervella 2012;2014
Spain	Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-257]		5120-3880 BC			X	Hervella 2012;2014

 

[bicicleur 2]

I believe the Carpathian Basin was a melting pot :

Starcevo-Köros was a melting pot between mainly G2a2 farmers and I2 HG, resulting in Vinca culture.

Vucedol was a melting pot between R1b steppe people and I2 natives.

Vucedol	[FONT=&quot]Hungary[/FONT]	[FONT=&quot]Lánycsók, Csata-alja [M6-116.8][/FONT]	[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]	[FONT=&quot]2860-2620 BC[/FONT]	[FONT=&quot]R1b[/FONT]	[FONT=&quot]M343+[/FONT]	[FONT=&quot]T2b23[/FONT]	[FONT=&quot]Szécsényi-Nagy 2015 thesis[/FONT]
Vucedol	[FONT=&quot]Hungary[/FONT]	[FONT=&quot]Lánycsók, Csata-alja [M6-116.10][/FONT]	[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]	[FONT=&quot]2860-2620 BC[/FONT]	[FONT=&quot]I2a2a[/FONT]	[FONT=&quot]M223+[/FONT]	[FONT=&quot]H5[/FONT]	[FONT=&quot]Szécsényi-Nagy 2015 thesis[/FONT]

maybe same happened during formation of Urnfield

Urnfield	Germany	Halberstadt [I0099/HAL 36]	M	1113-1021 BC	R1a1a1b1a2 (Z280)	S204+, S198+, PF6217+	H23	Brandt 2013; Haak 2015; Mathieson 2015
Urnfield	Germany	Lichtenstein Cave, near Dorste, Lower Saxony [M1, M2, M7]	M	1000 BC	I2a2b	Ii in table 2; Z5REF in Ysearch	H	Schilz 2006
Urnfield	Germany	Lichtenstein Cave [M3, M6]	M	1000 BC	I2a2b	Iii in table 2	H	Schilz 2006
Urnfield	Germany	Lichtenstein Cave [M14]	M	1000 BC	I2a2b?	Iii? in table 2	H	Schilz 2006
Urnfield	Germany	Lichtenstein Cave [M4, M5, M19]	M	1000 BC	I2a2b	Iiii in table 2	H	Schilz 2006
Urnfield	Germany	Lichtenstein Cave [M8, M16]	M	1000 BC	I2a2b	Ii in table 2; Z5REF in Ysearch	U5b	Schilz 2006
Urnfield	Germany	Lichtenstein Cave [M10]	M	1000 BC	R1a1?	Ri in table 2	T2?	Schilz 2006
Urnfield	Germany	Lichtenstein Cave [M11]	M	1000 BC	R1a1?	Ri? in table 2	U	Schilz 2006
Urnfield	Germany	Lichtenstein Cave [M9]	M	1000 BC	R1b	Rbi in table 2	H	Schilz 2006
Urnfield	Germany	Lichtenstein Cave [F1, F12, F13, F19, F20, F21]	F	1000 BC			H	Schilz 2006
Urnfield	Germany	Lichtenstein Cave [F2, F3, M12, M15]	F	1000 BC			J*	Schilz 2006
Urnfield	Germany	Lichtenstein Cave [F14]	F	1000 BC			J1b1	Schilz 2006
Urnfield	Germany	Lichtenstein Cave [F5, F6, F10, F16]	F	1000 BC			T2	Schilz 2006
Urnfield	Germany	Lichtenstein Cave [F9, F18]	F	1000 BC			U	Schilz 2006
Urnfield	Germany	Lichtenstein Cave [F15]	F	1000 BC			U (2?)	Schilz 2006
Urnfield	Germany	Lichtenstein Cave [F4, F7, F8]	F	1000 BC			U5b	Schilz 2006

 

[bicicleur 2]

Halstatt are linked to Urnfield culture
but I doubt they are the same people
we don't have DNA
but I'd guess Halstatt & La Tene are linked with expansion of R1b-U152

 

[berun]

The Urnfield samples fit quite well with the archaeological expansion of the Urnfield culture from the High Rhin; from the Eupedia itself:

I2a2b (formerly I2b2) has a distribution mostly limited to Alpine Italy (esp. Piedmont), Switzerland, the German Rhineland, the Harz mountains, the Low Countries, eastern France, and the British Isles (with the exception of Cornwall, Wales, Cumbria and the Scottish Highlands). Four out of the six samples from the 3000-year old Lichtenstein Cave in central Germany belonged to L38+. The cave was part of the Bronze Age Urnfield Culture. Based on the STR dating, it is believed that this lineage spread from Germany to England via Belgium in the Late Iron Age with the Celtic people of the La Tène Culture. I2a2b is therefore essentially a Alpine Celtic haplogroup.

The problem with such ancient DNA samples is that are quite unusual, Urnfield takes its name by digging holes and leaving there urns with the ashes of the dead, but the samples came from people inhumated in a cave. Even so the old R1a substrate is found also.

The R1b-U152 could have benefited of the Celtic expansions (above all to Italy), but taking into account that L51 was already in Ireland with the Bell Beakers, I think that the other clades were mainly where they are now before any Celtic expansion.

 

[bicicleur 2]

The R1b-U152 could have benefited of the Celtic expansions (above all to Italy), but taking into account that L51 was already in Ireland with the Bell Beakers, I think that the other clades were mainly where they are now before any Celtic expansion.

the Irish samples were R1b-L21, not L51

 

[bicicleur 2]

this is the oldest R1b-U152 identified

Bell Beaker

Germany

Osterhofen-Altenmarkt [RISE563]

M

R1b1a2a1a2b

PF6570/S28/U152

K1c1

Allentoft 2015; Mathieson 2015

way before Halstatt, but in the Halstatt area

 

[berun]

I can recommend you this book.

Thank you, once read I have exposed some of their flawed propositions here

 

[Alan]

Iran_Neo K6 results, note the calculator is just basic K6 and shows only Natufian and Iran_Neo no CHG or Anatolian_Neo therefore the elevated level of "WHG" because it catches up the Anatolian_Forager (WHG) portion up as such.


Iron Age Iranian Tepe Hasanlu F38 971-832 BC
R1b-Y:24376846, N1a3a
0.01% ASE
0.00% E_Asian
51.54% Iran_Neolithic
37.39% Natufian
11.00% WHG
0.07% Sub_Saharan

The Kurdish user MFA
1.71% ASE
2.30% E_Asian
45.77% Iran_Neolithic
38.08% Natufian
12.15% WHG
0.00% Sub_Saharan



A Yezidi Kurdish result
0.45% ASE
3.36% E_Asian
50.36% Iran_Neolithic
37.88% Natufian
7.94% WHG
0.00% Sub_Saharan

The blogger MFA pointed out already earlier that Tepe Hasanlu basically looks like a Kurdish minus the Steppe admixture. On PCAs it also plots basically there where you would expect the Kurds.