The Canaanites and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[VMax]

You started out claiming Palestine's population was mainly in the cities, and somehow extrapolated a verse describing Ramle's country as 'waste' to mean Palestine had no population. Now after you've done a quick Wiki search, you contend with the 80-75% rural range for the 16th century. Thank you for playing along my side. The only next step left for you is to open a book.

Ottoman rule was not a uniform period by any means, and similar to the rest of the region the population contracted and increased depending on many variables.

You seriously thought "only 6 towns" was the jaw breaker when, in fact, Bernard Lewis himself says that Palestine only had six major administrative centers which retained an urban status during that period:
View attachment 14679

What happened after the mid-16th century is a fast development of the urban centers of Palestine - akin to all of Syria.

View attachment 14675


Now going to Scholch, the population was still overwhelmingly rural in the mid-19th century as mentioned above. The 85-90% range was a mistake on my part, as it was only for the districts of Nablus and Jerusalem, which I had misremembered.

However, much of Palestine was still rural c. 1849 after the urbanization that ensued in the 18th and 19th centuries
View attachment 14680

Roughly 670 villages and cities in Palestine were included in the census of 1871. A 'wasteland' indeed!
View attachment 14682

Scholch adds - the rural population, in fact, underwent a reverse process of decline pre-1870:
View attachment 14683

View attachment 14676

With the rise of Yusuf Effendi al-Khalidi, the power of rural shaykhs was basically diminished. What happened then? Scholch tells us:
View attachment 14677

It's amazing what opening a book can do.

Let's also not forget that none of this - absolutely none - justifies Zionism and the colonization that's going on in Palestine at the moment.

Nice Strawman!

No, I started out with a basic point as a response to DrWho33's comment that Palestine was 'inhabited and settled.'

Here is my first remark on the subject: Palestine was sparsely inhabited and very much so only in the main towns except Jerusalem and a few others. It was very very underdeveloped as any travelogue will tell you and any early footage.

Nowhere did I say 'Palestine had no population' except the main towns. It is clear that I said that it was sparsely populated except a few main towns like Jerusalem and a few others.

You then responded to that post with this:

"Not only was Palestine as a whole well-populated during the 18th-19th century, which was recorded by many travelers who visited the area, the rural population comprised ~85-90% of the total population. Anyone even a tiny bit familiar with the Levant's demography and history knows that."

I then went on to show you how all those highlighted points were wrong using your own data to show how it was not 85-90% in the rural areas. I used a quote from an 18th century travelogue to show how it was sparsely populated between the coast of Jaffa and Jerusalem - two main towns. And I gave you the upward bound of the total population of 500k in 1880 to show how that is not as you said 'as a whole well populated' for a land the size of Palestine.

And that was done besides all of your insults along the way. I have one of my own - I don't have time for liars or fools who can't follow their own context and the posts of those they argue with. Go play on X (formerly twitter) or Tik-tok where you belong. Being able to post picks of book pages attached to your strawman does not impress me.

As I said using your own sources:

Yeah, 30% in 13 Towns - just like I said. There was more than 13 towns. Now what does that look like in an area the size of Palestine. It looks underdeveloped and underpopulated.

 

[VMax]

You have no genuine interest in this topic and you're constantly ignoring the claims you've made after they're dismissed, without acknowledging that you were mistaken, choosing instead to nitpick on topics which you haven't researched adequately.

It's very clear that you're not arguing in good faith or actually want the truth. As such, I won't respond to your replies anymore.

It's very clear you have your head up your butt. And dismantling your points and your strawman is not nitpicking.

 

[norbert]

I saw a video on Youtube where a guy claims that the average Palestinian derives most of his/her ancestry from the Anatolian Neolithic Farmers. He also uses some rather laughable visual representations of ancient populations which were AI generated. I'm pretty sure the Canaanites derived most of their ancestry from the Natufians. Levant_N was predominantly Natufian with significant admixture from Anatolia and CHGs and Iranian pastoralists. One paper clearly states that the ancestry of Levantine Arabs is more than 50% from locals and Calcolithic Iranians/Zagros. So, Anatolia isn't even the second-biggest contributor.

 

[Shamshi243]

I saw a video on Youtube where a guy claims that the average Palestinian derives most of his/her ancestry from the Anatolian Neolithic Farmers. He also uses some rather laughable visual representations of ancient populations which were AI generated. I'm pretty sure the Canaanites derived most of their ancestry from the Natufians. Levant_N was predominantly Natufian with significant admixture from Anatolia and CHGs and Iranian pastoralists. One paper clearly states that the ancestry of Levantine Arabs is more than 50% from locals and Calcolithic Iranians/Zagros. So, Anatolia isn't even the second-biggest contributor.

Natufian is mostly Dzudzuana or ANF-like, with a third of its ancestry coming from a Taforalt-like source. When using Natufians instead of PPNB it could display more ANF, but the nature of PPNB itself is still uncertain. To add further, G25 is not particularly accurate when it comes to Paleolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic populations.

That said, more recent Iron age or even Bronze age models can be more helpful here. Such as this one:

Source:

Levant_MBA_IA:Lebanon_Sidon_MBA.SG,0.0819526,0.1470486,-0.060641,-0.1000658,-0.0099094,-0.040774,-0.003619,-0.0062306,0.0148892,0.0084558,0.0111076,-0.0113298,0.0221206,0.00556,-0.0091474,0.008751,0.0002348,-0.0010894,0.0011062,0.0035518,0.0046668,0.008334,-0.0037714,0.0015662,-0.0013414
Levant_MBA_IA:Levant_Megiddo_IA,0.084229,0.147252,-0.063356,-0.09367,-0.016311,-0.047969,-0.008695,-0.003923,0.01084,0.009294,0.008607,-0.005995,0.022596,0.005367,-0.008279,0.001458,-0.024773,0.006081,0.007416,-0.00988,0.003119,-0.002844,-0.002958,-0.001566,-0.005748
Levant_MBA_IA:Levant_Abel_IA,0.085367,0.151314,-0.053928,-0.095285,-0.016003,-0.030678,-0.005875,-0.004154,0.00859,0.010934,0.011692,-0.0003,0.019177,0.001376,-0.000543,0.005436,-0.001825,0.009755,-0.00088,0.000875,-0.000374,0.015086,-0.004067,-0.003856,-0.003473
Aegean_IA:Macedonia_IA,0.1258882,0.1525326,0.0215336,-0.0193154,0.0273589,-0.0084503,-0.000282,-0.0012921,0.0032724,0.0315268,0.0030529,0.0074483,-0.0163378,-0.0078031,-0.013382,0.0004374,0.009844,0.0037374,0.0071018,-0.0071659,-0.0103193,0.0055645,-0.0006532,0.0066031,-0.0023591
Aegean_IA:Macedonia_Classical_Hellenistic,0.12179067,0.15368333,0.012068,-0.029931333,0.021337,-0.01255,-0.0057966667,-0.0073843333,0.0034086667,0.019621,0.0048716667,0.0094916667,-0.012239667,0.0064683333,-0.0070123333,-0.014938,-0.0049546667,0.00025333333,0.0067456667,-0.003168,-0.0084433333,0.0013603333,-0.000945,0.000201,-0.001836
Aegean_IA:ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1,0.1187011,0.1620494,-0.00598,-0.0614623,0.0252794,-0.0257376,-0.0023837,-0.0028021,0.0066326,0.0438149,0.004083,0.0099769,-0.0185401,-0.0035783,-0.0185743,-0.0092623,0.0119953,-0.000398,0.0077751,-0.008647,-0.0102497,0.005317,-0.0009156,0.0060247,-0.0047044
Hellenistic_Indo-Iranian:Kazakhstann_OtrarCulture_LIA,0.10206133,0.061608667,-0.0032683333,0.039621333,-0.033442,0.019522667,0.0024283333,-0.008769,-0.031837667,-0.030008333,0.000054333333,-0.0038466667,0.004856,-0.020506,0.019362667,0.020418667,-0.0018256667,-0.0038853333,-0.0011313333,-0.002543,-0.0069043333,-0.0031736667,-0.0023006667,0.0019276667,0.002914
Hellenistic_Indo-Iranian:Kazakhstan_Kangju.SG,0.099595167,0.0494225,0.0160905,0.046512,-0.033185667,0.0186855,0.0031726667,0.0011921667,-0.026178833,-0.031861,-0.0049796667,-0.0023231667,0.00086716667,-0.0212855,0.018096,0.0167725,-0.0015428333,-0.00086583333,-0.00090083333,-0.0050233333,-0.0086928333,0.00061816667,0.00051366667,0.0032936667,-0.00099783333
Hellenistic_Indo-Iranian:PAK_Barikot_IA,0.0743643,0.017941,-0.098177,0.0614777,-0.0769373,0.0420197,0.0062667,-0.0049997,-0.027747,-0.013364,-0.00341,0.0029977,-0.0003963,-0.0100463,0.0134363,0.0140543,-0.0024773,-0.0028293,-0.0027233,-0.008796,0.0032447,-0.00981,0.0077647,-0.002892,0.0072647
Sub_Saharan_African:Bantu_Kenya,-0.600986,0.062455,0.014708,0.0117895,0.002,0.00753,-0.012338,0.0265375,0.0029655,-0.0244195,-0.0023545,0.013338,-0.0320365,0.003303,-0.0352875,0.025921,-0.015255,-0.0043705,-0.0152725,0.006003,0.00287,-0.0051315,-0.0030195,0.0003615,0.0022155
Sub_Saharan_African:Dinka,-0.577083,0.0507765,-0.00037725,-0.00750975,-0.0053855,-0.0016735,-0.01768475,0.02042225,0.081145,-0.0969495,-0.02107,0.022742,-0.03831725,-0.00116975,0.01014525,-0.021347,0.0186125,-0.00943825,0.02419675,-0.02416775,0.002402,0.003308,0.001479,0.00090375,0.0096995
Syria_TellQarassa_Umayyad,0.0682935,0.155376,-0.0550595,-0.127909,-0.0004615,-0.056615,-0.0186835,-0.0125765,0.0651405,0.0072895,0.0185935,-0.028924,0.069053,0.004473,0.01079,0.0230045,-0.035269,-0.003864,0.00088,0.0345165,0.0207135,0.0072335,-0.0070865,0.0030125,-0.01443

Average:

Palestinian_Ramle,0.046920333,0.13506544,-0.047098,-0.077843,-0.012617444,-0.029934444,-0.0068934444,-0.0027691111,0.016861778,-0.00030355556,0.0075238889,-0.0097246667,0.019986778,-0.0010397778,-0.0019603333,0.010872222,-0.0012893333,-0.0013795556,0.00033533333,0.002793,0.0011092222,0.0052073333,-0.00082177778,0.0028515556,0.001357

That last one is basically the Palestinian average on G25 minus an outlier (HGDP00683). They're from the central district, mostly the city of Ramle where a Palestinian population remains.

 

[norbert]

I suppose the only connection is the core West-Eurasian ancestry that can be found in all WE populations and that core group might have been Dzudzuana. But I'm pretty sure genetic history will be rewritten a couple of times in the future. A lot of discoveries have yet to be made and I don't like seeing the same names on every paper currently published. I expect a little more attention to this topic.

 

[monster]

Western powers didn't intervene in Kosovo until the war had almost been going on for two years, there had also been other wars prior to that such as the Bosnian War and Croatian War and in general Yugoslav wars and there was Russian involvement in Kosovo on the Serb side, they found Russian ID's of ''Serb'' soldiers. It definitely contributed to NATO intervention.

The Serbs raped 20,000 people in Kosovo: https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/03/09/rape-sexual-assault-war-crime-justice-kosovo/

For a bunch of wars going on in Europe, two years is a long time. Nobody helped the Kurds or the Assyrians nor the Chechens.
The world isn't fair in general. Bombing of Gaza is also largely due to the attacks of Hamas. In the eyes of the west it is a terriorist attack, in the eyes of the Palestinians they are fighting a 70 year occupation. In Kosovo, it wasn't only/or constant bombing but pillaging and looting villages.

 

[norbert]

Western powers didn't intervene in Kosovo until the war had almost been going on for two years, there had also been other wars prior to that such as the Bosnian War and Croatian War and in general Yugoslav wars and there was Russian involvement in Kosovo on the Serb side, they found Russian ID's of ''Serb'' soldiers. It definitely contributed to NATO intervention.

The Serbs raped 20,000 people in Kosovo: https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/03/09/rape-sexual-assault-war-crime-justice-kosovo/

For a bunch of wars going on in Europe, two years is a long time. Nobody helped the Kurds or the Assyrians nor the Chechens.
The world isn't fair in general. Bombing of Gaza is also largely due to the attacks of Hamas. In the eyes of the west it is a terriorist attack, in the eyes of the Palestinians they are fighting a 70 year occupation. In Kosovo, it wasn't only/or constant bombing but pillaging and looting villages.

Another thread has to be turned into the most important topic in the history of mankind: the Albanians. Naturally, you're leaving out a lot of stuff regarding the Kosovo War. A simple narrative like so many: we were the victims, the Serbs were the evil killers. A classic like is that the Serbs were conducting a genocide in Kosovo or that they were trying to expel the entire Albanian populations. A myth already debunked by German television in 2009 or so. NATO was looking for every lie to justify its illegal bombing campaign. Video recordings of "dead Albanian civilians" (funny how all the dead were men) turned out to show fallen members of the separatist, paramilitary organisation UCK. Recordings and photographs of "expelled Albanian civilians" were supposed to uncover the monstrous Serb atrocities. But in this case too, it turned that most of the refugee camps were set up AFTER the NATO bombings started. People were fleeing from the NATO. This doesn't mean that the Serbs weren't expelling people and committing atrocities. They certainly were but not in the extent were we led to believe. The NATO bombings of Yugoslavia (which was in fact just Serbia and Montenegro by 1999) had huge global consequences. They opened the pandora's box and made later illegal invasions possible like the invasion of Iraq in 2003. The chaos that ensued in the Middle East haunts the world to this day.

The Russians weren't involved in the Kosovo war. They had more important business to attend to like trying to prevent their own country from total collapse. NATO used this weakness of Russia to embark on a global pillage campaign. There were Russian volunteers who fought for the Serbs in all Balkan wars. They were mercenaries who fought for money because there was none to be made in their homeland at the time. Btw, so did Ukrainians. Yes, the world isn't fair. International law is a joke, only enforced on the weak while the big guys do what they want. For instance, illegally create pseudo states like Kosovo for their own geostrategic interests (Bondsteel). Once those interests become undefensible or irrelevant, they'll simply pull out like they did from Afghanistan and you'll have another war. That's how great powers operate. You're only good to them as long as you're useful. They don't like you and they don't care about you. The Albanians are going to learn their lessons like many others.

 

[mount123]

Western powers didn't intervene in Kosovo until the war had almost been going on for two years, there had also been other wars prior to that such as the Bosnian War and Croatian War and in general Yugoslav wars and there was Russian involvement in Kosovo on the Serb side, they found Russian ID's of ''Serb'' soldiers. It definitely contributed to NATO intervention.

The Serbs raped 20,000 people in Kosovo: https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/03/09/rape-sexual-assault-war-crime-justice-kosovo/

For a bunch of wars going on in Europe, two years is a long time. Nobody helped the Kurds or the Assyrians nor the Chechens.
The world isn't fair in general. Bombing of Gaza is also largely due to the attacks of Hamas. In the eyes of the west it is a terriorist attack, in the eyes of the Palestinians they are fighting a 70 year occupation. In Kosovo, it wasn't only/or constant bombing but pillaging and looting villages.

This thread is about a Middleastern conflict between two Middleastern pops (Arabs & Israelis ). It has absolutely nothing to do with

Nonetheless, there is no bothsidesism in the 90s wars of the Western Balkans. Serbs have been the main perpetrators of genocidal attempts against their neighbours (Albanians, Bosniaks, Croats) very well exceeding the 100 thousand murders threshold. The genocide against the Albanian civilians executed by the Serbian army and Milosevics paramilitary gangs is a well etablished fact that claimed the lives of more than ten thousand Albanians. There are still mass graves of Albanians (nearly 1500 children still missing!) in Serbia, keywords being Batajnica among others. There were bodies dumped in the Danube by trucks. NATO's bombing of genocidal Milosevican Serbian Yugoslavia was the answer to Mejë, Krusha e Madhe, Srebrenica and many more hundreds of massacres.

Serbia is just a landlocked Russian proxy state in the Balkans, expecting some sort of reconciliation from a country of bot farms, UDBA (copy of KGB) and Milosevic's heirs still leading it is beyond delusional.

As for the lying in that cringe post above: the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruled that the declaration of independence by did not violate international law. All important progressive countries in the World and the West, the entirety of G7 countries aswell as more than half of UN member states have recognized Anyone who thinks otherwise e. g. certain folks living off welfare in Austria can try enter Dardania without a passport and see what happens.

 

[Northener]

Thanks for posting Jovialis, part of my E-V22/ EL-1401 quest

 

[Northener]

Thanks for posting Jovialis, part of my E-V22/ EL-1401 quest

Correction E-L1401

 

[moonlightlizard]

The conflict between Palestinians and Jews is deeply rooted in both groups historical ties to the land.
Both Palestinians and Jews have thousands of years of history in the Levant region, a fact that is often denied by some advocates on both sides.
This denial causes both Palestinians and Jews to question the other's authenticity as natives and accuse each other of using false claims to justify their presence.
However, a 2020 study (The Genomic History of the Bronze Age Southern Levant) revealed that both Jews and Palestinians share a significant portion of their ancestry with ancient DNA samples from the region dating back over 3,000 years.
Both groups have deep cultural and ancestral ties to the Southern Levant, with their origins traced back thousands of years.
Accepting these historical facts and acknowledging the shared ancestry can be a small first step to unravelling this complex conflict.
To have any hope of resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it is crucial for both sides to acknowledge each other's deep historical roots and inherent right to self-determination in the region, fostering mutual understanding and respect.

Article from National Geographic about the Canaanites DNA
https://www.nationalgeographic.co.u...-canaanites-lives-on-in-modern-arabs-and-jews

Razib Khan speaking about the Canaanite origins.

Israel has faked archeological finds so I have a hard time taking their "studies" seriously. The founder of zionism, Theodor Herzl, was an Austrian Atheist and referred to the Palestinians as "Natives". In fact, they tried to build an "Israel" in many other places but got rejected and had to settle for British Mandated Palestine. There is no way for them to live in peace when the political movement Israel is founded on is rooted in religious and racial supremacy. Not to mention murder and terrorism, including assassination of British officials who they saw as "getting in the way" of their "goal". They even have ties with the Nazis (Haavara Agreement) and treat their holocaust survivors like garbage. Norman Finkelstein is my favorite to listen to when it comes unpacking Israeli propaganda.

 

[Vallicanus]

Thanks for posting Jovialis, part of my E-V22/ EL-1401 quest

Surely Hellenistic Greek females were much more important than Iberian females, at 35-60%.

 

[kingdavid]

Israel has faked archeological finds so I have a hard time taking their "studies" seriously. The founder of zionism, Theodor Herzl, was an Austrian Atheist and referred to the Palestinians as "Natives". In fact, they tried to build an "Israel" in many other places but got rejected and had to settle for British Mandated Palestine. There is no way for them to live in peace when the political movement Israel is founded on is rooted in religious and racial supremacy. Not to mention murder and terrorism, including assassination of British officials who they saw as "getting in the way" of their "goal". They even have ties with the Nazis (Haavara Agreement) and treat their holocaust survivors like garbage. Norman Finkelstein is my favorite to listen to when it comes unpacking Israeli propaganda.

Only agree on one thing
With you there will never be peace here

We will live by the sword till the end of days

 

[Vallicanus]

Israel has faked archeological finds so I have a hard time taking their "studies" seriously.

Proof of this astonishing claim, please.