The rise of PIEs in the steppes --- From the Ural or from the from the Caucasus?

ElHorsto said:
The isolated composition of Albanians within the Balkan population and their possible ties with Ireland or Egypt and Balochistan is actually a much bigger surprise.
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That's no surprise at all to me. It actually supports what albanian historians have been saying all along, before dna testing came along. The link between the irish celts and the albanians is the illyrians. The ancient greeks were aware that the celts and illyrians were related tribes. In greek mythology, Keltos was the son of Polyphemos and Galatea and the brother of Illyrius and Galas. Another piece fits the puzzle that the celts spread to western europe through the balkans.
 
nordicwarrior said:
Would the shift from Kurgan Theory (Russian Steppes) to Anatolia have anything to do with the discovery Gobekli Tepe? I've been drawn to Gobekli Tepe for some time now, and knew immediately it was a game changer. It predates the Neolithic Revolution and has aspects that could go back to Mesolithic. I've been waiting for the establishment gears to re-orient to GT (And I've been expecting Spencer Wells to claim Anatolia as R's new launching site--just kidding. Kind of.)

Only 15% of the site has been uncovered so far. Photos don't do justice to how large the area is--if you have a chance watch a video to get a better idea of scale.

And I have the builders of Gobekli Tepe as I-J. Total gut feeling, but a strong one.
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No, I used to learn about the Anatolian model in Amsterdam back in the nineties when I went to college there, and that was before the Gobekli Tepe.

I do also believe that the so called Yamna (proto-Kurgan) Culture in the Pontic-Caspian Steppes/Northern Caucasus was influenced by much higher cultures from West Asia via the Maikop Culture. So native R1a folks there were influenced by R1b & J2a folks from West Asia. Or R1b folks from the Balkan Peninsula.
 
So, I'm pretty sure about the fact that the original R1b folks have something to do with the Indo-Europisation of Europe! Be it from the Balkan Peninsula, be it from South Caucasus!
 
Goga, I'm sure the Anatolian model has been around for some time--I'm just talking about the possible shift in group think from Kurgan to Anatolian. And Gobekli Tepe was being dug out in the nineties.
But I am no expert in languages--definitely my weak spot.
 
Agreed Goga. R1b is the definition of Indo-European in my book. But I don't think R1b built Gobekli Tepe.
 
- Basque is an obstacle in many theories
- R1a in Turcic speakers is no problem because Turcic language expanded rather late and in asia only.
- I was always sceptic about R1b being brought exclusively by west steppe peoples to europe, except the possibility of eastern steppe (Altai/Bactria).
- the Varna Necropolis question is important but I don't see any clear conclusions yet. It could have provided a trigger in connection with the huge Black-sea flooding. Most of the flooding affected Ukrainian shores though.
- Sumerian and Altai makes sense in connection to 1. the eastern steppe/Bactria branch 2. West Europe/Basques branch and 3. Genetics.
- Genetic shows consistent trails from Pakistan to the Altai in terms of R1b Y-HG, Autosomal "Gedrosia" component in DODECAD SNP analysis and now confirmed by the STR Balochi and Altai component. Note that Gedrosian has not been found yet in ancient samples of Europe.
Check the Table in the pdf page 5:
- Baloch component is present only in the Irish and Albanians (but 0% in Balkans and Greece, and near 0% everywhere else). In that paper it is considered consistent with the Celtic Iron age.
- Altai component is present almost everywhere except Greece and Sicily and almost absent too in Basques (R1b)
- BUT: Altai component has again west european local peak in the Irish (R1b). The norse Altai component is very high probably because of neighbouring finland.
- East Mediterranean STR component is close to Zero in both, Albanians and Irish. Yet It is maximal in Greece and Sicily. Even Finland has plenty.

Currently I find two hypothetical routes of R1b to Europe to be interesting:
1. directly by the Sea from the Middle East (Sumerian-Basque link? Bell-Beakers?).
2. "Celtic"/"Hallstatt" R1b coming indirectly to europe via central asia, possibly Bactria (Altai-connection). Albanians could represent a later hallstatt-offshoot to the balkans, if it appears correct that they are genetically isolated in the Balkans.
But STR should be taken with caution due to its lower number than SNP.

After all, very speculative and many gaps, but with interesting trails.

Yetos said:
Search the Varna Necropolis to understand how many oxymoron produce,
both theories have missing links today,

for example Gibutas theory is oudated and droped, Steppe people did not have or build kurgans,
the anatolia theory as clear neolithic farmic also drops, cause of vocabulary that is common after the discovery of metals, (it was expressed and analyzed by Taranis in another post)

genetics still need more samples to me, alone they can not explain language, must be in combo,
for example the combo arsenic bronze + R1 is a good candidate for IE language expand explanation,
but what about gold mettalurgy? and burial customs, can not combine.
the key to IE is Summerian and Akkadian and Altai languages,
Summerian has connection with Altai as Nostradic, but also has connection with Akkadian as Ur-Urartian.

just look why R1b Basques are not IE
why R1a Turks are not IE,
and why J1a Nakhs are not IE,
the case of Finnland is a strong arque that IE last frontier might be Baltic, and not so early as Urnfield,

to make a theory strong must have many strong arguement and less oponent arguements,
both theories are collapsed,
meaning that we must search for possible alternative or other waves to create combo that can can stand,

Tocharians culture is not steppe culture, it is also minor-Asian middle East culture.
Steppe people did not had kurgans cause if they had, we would see them from steppe to India, which we do not.
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kamani said:
That's no surprise at all to me. It actually supports what albanian historians have been saying all along, before dna testing came along. The link between the irish celts and the albanians is the illyrians. The ancient greeks were aware that the celts and illyrians were related tribes. In greek mythology, Keltos was the son of Polyphemos and Galatea and the brother of Illyrius and Galas. Another piece fits the puzzle that the celts spread to western europe through the balkans.
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A Hallstatt-offshoot from central europe to balkans like the Scordisci is more likely, since Albanian STR composition appears isolated in Balkans (if data are correct, I'm still cautious, because the Balochi and Altai figures overall look suspiciously sharply distributed).
 
Why?

There’s was a lot gene flow into the Balkan Peninsula from the Levant. The Balkan Peninsula is very heavy of Y-DNA hg. E nowadays. The Balkan Peninsula is not really a R1b-region.

Baloch (Gedrosia) component is also absent in Eastern Europe in Slavic R1a (Z283) heavy regions, while very high in the Iranian Peninsula and Central Asia where there's a lot of Iranic brach of R1a (Z93). But I believe that haplogroups R1b and R1a had contact with each other somewhere around the Iranian Plateau/Caspian Sea (south) since you can find both haplogroups there. Also remember that the original y-DNA hg. R1* folks came from Central Asia, right? So the ORIGINAL R1b folks must be heavy of Gedrosian aDNA component. But that Gedrosia component diluted together with West Asia component (and assimilated by the native Europeans) after many millennia in Europe.
 
Gedrosia aDNA component in (West Indo-European) R1b folks is another indication that it must be entered Europe via West Asia and not Eastern Europe. Because there’s Gedrosia aDNA in West Asia (mostly the Iranian Plateau) and not in Eastern Europe...
 
Goga said:
Why?

There’s was a lot gene flow into the Balkan Peninsula from the Levant. The Balkan Peninsula is very heavy of Y-DNA hg. E nowadays. The Balkan Peninsula is not really a R1b-region.

Baloch (Gedrosia) component is also absent in Eastern Europe in Slavic R1a (Z283) heavy regions, while very high in the Iranian Peninsula and Central Asia where there's a lot of Iranic brach of R1a (Z93). But I believe that haplogroups R1b and R1a had contact with each other somewhere around the Iranian Plateau/Caspian Sea (south) since you can find both haplogroups there. Also remember that the original y-DNA hg. R1* folks came from Central Asia, right? So the ORIGINAL R1b folks must be heavy of Gedrosian aDNA component. But that Gedrosia component diluted together with West Asia component (and assimilated by the native Europeans) after many millennia in Europe.
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According to the same people as the article, the main STRs of Eastern Europe are the Thracians at 32%.
Herodous did state that after the indians the thracians where the most populous people.
http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2012-10-01.pdf


BTW, unsure who said this, but the "celtic" red haired people is said to originate here. see below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udmurt_people
These people moved into europe along the danube river, to the alps, then along the rhine to the north sea.

Balochi/gedrosia is on the coast of eastern Persia ( Iran ) bordering pakistan, these people migrated via the caucasus and around the caspian sea. They then moved east and north-east into europe. Most via the volga-pontic area.
 
I don't understand what you're trying to say. Udmurt are Turkic peoples with East Iranic influences. Are you saying that the original Celtic tribes had Turkic roots?

What have Thracians to do with ancient Indo-European dialects? At the time of the Thracians (or even Scythians), Indo-European languages (from Ancient Greek, Anatolian and Iranic) were already wide spread.
 
In terms of the route of the celts, I am more inclined towards: Anatolia -> thracia -> illyria -> western europe. A few supporting ideas are:
- albanians have one of the highest percentages in europe of R1b-M269*, the parent version of almost all western european mutations of R1b. The same subclade is also found in bulgaria, romania, greece, anatolia and Iran.
- Anatolia was a much developed area/route in antiquity (Troy for example). People would follow the warmer shorter southern route rather than go the above the black sea route.
-in the trojan war the illyrians allied mostly with the trojans (anatolia), so for some reason they felt more affinity with them than with the cretan greeks.
-the albanians, romanians, and greeks are surrounded by slavs in the north and north-west, so the slav migrations cuttoff the connection between the western and eastern R1b.
 
kamani said:
In terms of the route of the celts, I am more inclined towards: Anatolia -> thracia -> illyria -> western europe. A few supporting ideas are:
- albanians have one of the highest percentages in europe of R1b-M269*, the parent version of almost all western european mutations of R1b. The same subclade is also found in bulgaria, romania, greece, anatolia and Iran.
- Anatolia was a much developed area/route in antiquity (Troy for example). People would follow the warmer shorter southern route rather than go the above the black sea route.
-in the trojan war the illyrians allied mostly with the trojans (anatolia), so for some reason they felt more affinity with them than with the cretan greeks.
-the albanians, romanians, and greeks are surrounded by slavs in the north and north-west, so the slav migrations cuttoff the connection between the western and eastern R1b.
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http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/12/trojan-pottery-across-bronzeiron-age.html
 
Goga said:
I don't understand what you're trying to say. Udmurt are Turkic peoples with East Iranic influences. Are you saying that the original Celtic tribes had Turkic roots?

What have Thracians to do with ancient Indo-European dialects? At the time of the Thracians (or even Scythians), Indo-European languages (from Ancient Greek, Anatolian and Iranic) were already wide spread.
Click to expand...

Udmurt markers are also found in continental celtic lands in central europe.

In regards to thracian STRs, it was already in eastern europe prior to migration and to this dat is still the dominant group for the areas in question. Migration was not that great in numbers.
 
Goga said:
Kurgan theory doesn't make any sense. To much anachronic and chronologic mistakes and ploteholes that it's look like a fantasy fairtale or a bad sciense-fiction story. It's a product of the last 20th century.

Also the word 'computer' existed many centuries before computer was ever invented!
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that is what I am saying Goga,
Kurgan theory is droped, after Varna,

and the word computer in my language is mechanismos or hypologistis, but today 99% call it computer.
so the word computer become international, maybe although not testified some words from steppe entered as the word computer today in our languages, without aspirations,
 
nordicwarrior said:
Goga, I'm sure the Anatolian model has been around for some time--I'm just talking about the possible shift in group think from Kurgan to Anatolian. And Gobekli Tepe was being dug out in the nineties.
But I am no expert in languages--definitely my weak spot.
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Nordic the discovery that Tocharians went from Anatolia to steppes, as also the leyla tepe as older Maykop culture gave new dimensions,
even the gedrosian component can be explained with leyla-tepe,

Varna when solved will the catalytic arque for every theory,
even the burial body position of varna is found in intermediate kngdom Egypt, changing a lot of what we know, we have Yemen and older Egyptian riyuals but same time we find the weapons with the dead and the crosshand position, and gold masks, as we see in Varna milleniums before Egypt,
 
Goga said:
I don't understand what you're trying to say. Udmurt are Turkic peoples with East Iranic influences. Are you saying that the original Celtic tribes had Turkic roots?

What have Thracians to do with ancient Indo-European dialects? At the time of the Thracians (or even Scythians), Indo-European languages (from Ancient Greek, Anatolian and Iranic) were already wide spread.
Click to expand...

in Both Greco-Brygian and Thraco-Armenian Hypothesis Thracian belong to the same Group with Greco-Aryan and Anatolian languages as Tocharian

the other side is the Balto-Slavo-Germanic branch that Thracians may belong.

from the limited words that we know or can guess from thracian they had enough LPIE vocabulary that is connected with Anatolia, and enough with Baltic,

thracian language if we knew more is a key to solve many problems
 
OPAH guys

before we reconstruct theories,

I must say that FACTS we can not deny are (at least until today)

1. the arsenic bronze entrance from European steppe to Pannoni Basin
with the possible way that macciamo describe from south caucas to Steppe, and from there to Urnfield and West and south,
although another parallel road is possible (2way entrance)

2 the point of taranis that words of things that were found after neolithic agricuture should different, so words like chariot axe copper etc should be different, except if they become international through trade or cross-road langauges (wokers-farmers class, warriors class) like the word οινος wine vino etc

3 tocharians were R1a but spoke anatolian IE

4 Maykop is expand of Leyla Tepe so Kurgans is not a steppe people custom.

5 Until today the burial custom with weapons masks gold and crossed hands is founded in Varna Bulgaria.


if I forgot something forgive me and correct me.
 
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R is almost 80% of Europe, I don't see why they couldn't have taken multiple pathways, in multiple waves. That would be my vote anyway.

On a side note: I've heard three terms mentioned periodically on Eupedia, names that I was never taught in school. And I've noticed each member seems to have a slightly different take on these definitions. Could we specify what these names mean?
A. Scythian
B. Thracian
C. Dacian
The European members seem to have a better working knowledge of these terms. Also what majority y-haplogroup are believed to make up each tribe/group?
 
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ElHorsto said:
- Basque is an obstacle in many theories
- R1a in Turcic speakers is no problem because Turcic language expanded rather late and in asia only.
- I was always sceptic about R1b being brought exclusively by west steppe peoples to europe, except the possibility of eastern steppe (Altai/Bactria).
- the Varna Necropolis question is important but I don't see any clear conclusions yet. It could have provided a trigger in connection with the huge Black-sea flooding. Most of the flooding affected Ukrainian shores though.
- Sumerian and Altai makes sense in connection to 1. the eastern steppe/Bactria branch 2. West Europe/Basques branch and 3. Genetics.
- Genetic shows consistent trails from Pakistan to the Altai in terms of R1b Y-HG, Autosomal "Gedrosia" component in DODECAD SNP analysis and now confirmed by the STR Balochi and Altai component. Note that Gedrosian has not been found yet in ancient samples of Europe.
Check the Table in the pdf page 5:
- Baloch component is present only in the Irish and Albanians (but 0% in Balkans and Greece, and near 0% everywhere else). In that paper it is considered consistent with the Celtic Iron age.
- Altai component is present almost everywhere except Greece and Sicily and almost absent too in Basques (R1b)
- BUT: Altai component has again west european local peak in the Irish (R1b). The norse Altai component is very high probably because of neighbouring finland.
- East Mediterranean STR component is close to Zero in both, Albanians and Irish. Yet It is maximal in Greece and Sicily. Even Finland has plenty.

Currently I find two hypothetical routes of R1b to Europe to be interesting:
1. directly by the Sea from the Middle East (Sumerian-Basque link? Bell-Beakers?).
2. "Celtic"/"Hallstatt" R1b coming indirectly to europe via central asia, possibly Bactria (Altai-connection). Albanians could represent a later hallstatt-offshoot to the balkans, if it appears correct that they are genetically isolated in the Balkans.
But STR should be taken with caution due to its lower number than SNP.

After all, very speculative and many gaps, but with interesting trails.
Click to expand...

wow
lets see

1- Basquez ok,

2 tocharians were R1a but went to central Asia,
so that is a problem cause gives 3 open doors behind
a) Tocharians learn IE in middle near EAST and spoke Turkic before
b) R1a went to central asia with IE and R1a homeland is Balkans
c) they came they learn or teach IE and they return (seems little bit silly)

3, Yes R1b road seem to pass from 2 ways one is above Black sea , and other to south Greece to west of Dinaric alps to central europe.
but seems 1rst road above Black sea was from Leyla teppe to Maykop (North Iran Azerbaizan Armenia Laz(possible splitto Hettit) Georgia to European steppe)

4. Varna is catalytic, cause seems to be connected with Rudna glava in Serbia, Sesklo Vinca etc

5 Summerian is strange, it can be connected with both Akkadian and Altaic,
connecting it with Altaic we have the Nostradic languages and connection of IE with Turkic
connecting it with Akkadian we have ur-urartian languages, and connection of IE with Semitic languages
but seems that LPIE share enough with both,
recently I was in touch with 5 Cypriots who work in summerian language and I was amazed
like the word Lillies (flowers) (Turkish Lalle ) the word Gal- Gaul (Big one-giant) (Slavic goliam, Biblical Goliath etc) and many others.

6 About Gennetics is strange, and I would like to know if the peaks are general spread or local
Although Albania as historical migrations has
a Celtic or para-Celtic invasion at 2000 BC with response from E Hg from central Greece, they both make Illyrians as historically said (Illyria)
yet parts that are mixed with Thracians and Messapians
the later known Phoenician Gettan-Dacian and Greek colonisation and Roman conquerors. (as Illyricum)
a possible entrance of Visigothic female population
again a Gaulish pass through Albania and return and settle and Join Flavia Legion but mainly outside Kossovo (Nis) although can be connected (Scordisci and Serdi might be of them, but they should also found in Beograd Serbia, Romania, Skanza mountains Bulgaria and Cappadokia minor Asia)
the Slavic entrance
The Cumans (Turkic people) entrance
some Normans' invasion but limited (as Arber and Alba)
Hungro-Romanian entrance (Hunjades)
Turkish entrance (major ottomanization-muslimization of Albania)
yet another strange is that Anjou that ceated Alba came from France but their homeland was considered Romania and Alba Lullia.

so I see no general isolation, especially at roman and ottoman times when Egnatia road (Con/polis-Rome) and the Axios road (bardar, from Thessaloniki to Wien and Poland) pass from Kossovo
so if we speak about local peaks well then ok, but if we speak about general peaks spread all over then I give up,
yet although we know that a naval road from Levant to Albania to West Sicily to Carhedon (Carthage) to Spain to Atlantic existed
East mediterean emporium settlements have benn found all the way to European Islands
I Give up I can't help more. except that ancient Greek place Celts or para Celts at Pannoni Basin

what surpises me is the lack of East mediterenean component since Albania has a lot of E and J2 Y-DNA,
that is like a shock,
do you have any link to that? I need data to check it.


PS

the only connection I can find with Balochi is the Persian migration to balkans of Skodra Skoudra satrapy, but still we know it historically mentioned, with little evidence, and most think in Thrace North and east of Makedonia. but in Illyria? too far.

a possible good explanation also will be if that balochi is from Jevgs and gabels reachin a peak 6-10% but that should also give 2-5% in Greece and 5-8% Bulgaria and Romania, except if these people were excluded from search as eternal devastation (Indian gypsies).
gypsies are also strong in Ireland I think.
gypsies at balkans were forced to settle at one place mainly at 20th century, and yet they deny modern way of living, so a random sample would include them but a specified search will exclude them, as non habitants of a certain village population,
Istill don't get that Ballochi.
 
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