The rise of PIEs in the steppes --- From the Ural or from the from the Caucasus?

[Yetos]

R is almost 80% of Europe, I don't see why they couldn't have taken multiple pathways, in multiple waves. That would be my vote anyway.

On a side note: I've heard three terms mentioned periodically on Eupedia, names that I was never taught in school. And I've noticed each member seems to have a slightly different take on these definitions. Could we specify what these names mean?
A. Scythian
B. Thracian
C. Dacian
The European members seem to have a better working knowledge of these terms. Also what majority y-haplogroup are believed to make up each tribe/group?

Scythians is after Greek Σκυθες Persian skudar-skudra, means shooters mounted archers, describe by Greeks as Iranoid steppe people entering Europe at known historical times

Thracians after Greek Θρηικες means divided
alternative from ανΘραξ means coalminers or coal producers or fire people from expand from Phrygia to Balkans to Caspian sea the lands that scythians started entering West

Dacian Getae (Δακοι Γετται) name given by Greeks and Romans but can be also inner name , are sub-Thracian tribes like Triballi Odrysse Paeoni Phrygians etc mainly around Romania and north
the only explanation I found and is not certain is Getae means goats and Dacians means wolfs, biters or excavators, diggers, miners, dig rock hole habitants

for gennetics better someone else

 

[Templar]

R is almost 80% of Europe, I don't see why they couldn't have taken multiple pathways, in multiple waves. That would be my vote anyway.

On a side note: I've heard three terms mentioned periodically on Eupedia, names that I was never taught in school. And I've noticed each member seems to have a slightly different take on these definitions. Could we specify what these names mean?
A. Scythian
B. Thracian
C. Dacian
The European members seem to have a better working knowledge of these terms. Also what majority y-haplogroup are believed to make up each tribe/group?

Scythians were an Iranian steppe people who inhabited the Russian steppe and parts of Central Asia, they were nomadic and some think that their domain extended as far as Mongolia which would explain Mongol use of horses in subsequent centuries. I think most agree that they were mostly R1a.

Thracians lived mostly around the area of Southern Romania and Bulgaria. I don't know much about them, but I have heard people claim that they are related closely to Illyrians. Their haplogroups were likely very varied, due to their exposed location.

Dacians lived in modern day Romania, some think that they were a subset of the Thracians. Their haplogroups I think were very diverse just like that of the Thracians.

All 3 of these groups spoke Indo-European languages. Genetically I think Scythians were overwhelmingly Indo-European, and I think both Dacians and Thracians had an Indo-European elite but most were of Near-Eastern ancestry. Some may have had haplogroup I (especially in the mountainous parts of Romania).

 

[kamani]

R is almost 80% of Europe, I don't see why they couldn't have taken multiple pathways, in multiple waves. That would be my vote anyway.

On a side note: I've heard three terms mentioned periodically on Eupedia, names that I was never taught in school. And I've noticed each member seems to have a slightly different take on these definitions. Could we specify what these names mean?
A. Scythian
B. Thracian
C. Dacian
The European members seem to have a better working knowledge of these terms. Also what majority y-haplogroup are believed to make up each tribe/group?

There are theories that Scythia (Ukraine) was were the slavic R1a was concentrated before it spread in europe. Although people are saying here that R1b also went through Scythia, so first it might have been R1b then R1a came and displaced it west sometime in the Bronze age or later. Tribes from there have always been nomadic and opportunistically predatory, since the land is a steppe and it is hard to defend a permanent fortification.

Thracians (and Dacians) supposedly had red hair and were the bronze-age R1b invaders of the area, forming an elite over the neolithic indigenous populations, who were probably a mix of E-V13, J2, G, and I. They are related with Illyrians and possibly celts, since the tribes in the west balkan are usually classified as Celto-Illyrian, and tribes in the east balkan as Thraco-Illyrian. Then "very recently" around 400 BC some of them got tired of tribal lifestyle and formed the ancient Macedonian state, which took over part of greece and Illyria and borrowed the greek alphabet (being shepherd tribes they had no alphabet of their own and little use for writing).
Then Alexander the Great became king and took over all the great known empires from persia to india.
Then the romans came along and threw everybody into oblivion.
Then in the middle ages after the hun and the slav invasion, most thracians were dead. Genetically you might find mixed descendants mostly in romania, northern greece, and albania.

 

[Yetos]

sory bad handling

 

[ElHorsto]

Thank you Yetos for the big answer, I didn't expect prompt explanations for all of my speculations. A lot of deatils to digest.

Just briefly about the DNAtribes paper:

I made a mistake by mentioning a R1b trail to Altai, which is of course not real as Tocharians were R1a. But Bashkortostan has much R1b and the Altai STR component is still very strong west of Altai in North Europe and Uralics. So it is not so nicely consistent as I initially mentioned, but still very important I think.

The lack of East Med component in Albanians is indeed so strange that I think that STR are not reliable admixture markers or very low in numbers and show some properties of Y-HGs. But I'm no expert and might stand corrected. I'd bet that by overall SNP Albanians would be almost indistinguishable from other Balkan populations. Here is the paper from Dnatribes:

www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2013-01-02.pdf?utm_source=Campaigner&utm_campaign=Sunday_December_30_2012_-_1&campaigner=1&utm_medium=HTMLEmail

Page 5 shows the table with all the STR percentages.

Note that both, Balochi and Altai is elevated in Albanians and have same ratio as in Celtic (Irish). I don't think Gypsies have anything to do with it because according to the table they have 0.0% Balochi but North India component instead and North India component is 0.0% everywhere else. Also the Irish Travellers have recently been shown to be not of Gypsy but of separate Irish ancestry.

Regarding Y-HG E,J, etc. they could be explained away by "Anatolia South Caucasus" component which is ubiquitous everywhere, provided that STRs are reliable at all.

I personally believe that the Salishan component indicates paleolithic europeans ancestry, and this is high in the Irish but 0.0% in Albanians.

wow
lets see

1- Basquez ok,

2 tocharians were R1a but went to central Asia,
so that is a problem cause gives 3 open doors behind
a) Tocharians learn IE in middle near EAST and spoke Turkic before
b) R1a went to central asia with IE and R1a homeland is Balkans
c) they came they learn or teach IE and they return (seems little bit silly)

3, Yes R1b road seem to pass from 2 ways one is above Black sea , and other to south Greece to west of Dinaric alps to central europe.
but seems 1rst road above Black sea was from Leyla teppe to Maykop (North Iran Azerbaizan Armenia Laz(possible splitto Hettit) Georgia to European steppe)

4. Varna is catalytic, cause seems to be connected with Rudna glava in Serbia, Sesklo Vinca etc

5 Summerian is strange, it can be connected with both Akkadian and Altaic,
connecting it with Altaic we have the Nostradic languages and connection of IE with Turkic
connecting it with Akkadian we have ur-urartian languages, and connection of IE with Semitic languages
but seems that LPIE share enough with both,
recently I was in touch with 5 Cypriots who work in summerian language and I was amazed
like the word Lillies (flowers) (Turkish Lalle ) the word Gal- Gaul (Big one-giant) (Slavic goliam, Biblical Goliath etc) and many others.

6 About Gennetics is strange, and I would like to know if the peaks are general spread or local
Although Albania as historical migrations has
a Celtic or para-Celtic invasion at 2000 BC with response from E Hg from central Greece, they both make Illyrians as historically said (Illyria)
yet parts that are mixed with Thracians and Messapians
the later known Phoenician Gettan-Dacian and Greek colonisation and Roman conquerors. (as Illyricum)
a possible entrance of Visigothic female population
again a Gaulish pass through Albania and return and settle and Join Flavia Legion but mainly outside Kossovo (Nis) although can be connected (Scordisci and Serdi might be of them, but they should also found in Beograd Serbia, Romania, Skanza mountains Bulgaria and Cappadokia minor Asia)
the Slavic entrance
The Cumans (Turkic people) entrance
some Normans' invasion but limited (as Arber and Alba)
Hungro-Romanian entrance (Hunjades)
Turkish entrance (major ottomanization-muslimization of Albania)
yet another strange is that Anjou that ceated Alba came from France but their homeland was considered Romania and Alba Lullia.

so I see no general isolation, especially at roman and ottoman times when Egnatia road (Con/polis-Rome) and the Axios road (bardar, from Thessaloniki to Wien and Poland) pass from Kossovo
so if we speak about local peaks well then ok, but if we speak about general peaks spread all over then I give up,
yet although we know that a naval road from Levant to Albania to West Sicily to Carhedon (Carthage) to Spain to Atlantic existed
East mediterean emporium settlements have benn found all the way to European Islands
I Give up I can't help more. except that ancient Greek place Celts or para Celts at Pannoni Basin

what surpises me is the lack of East mediterenean component since Albania has a lot of E and J2 Y-DNA,
that is like a shock,
do you have any link to that? I need data to check it.


PS

the only connection I can find with Balochi is the Persian migration to balkans of Skodra Skoudra satrapy, but still we know it historically mentioned, with little evidence, and most think in Thrace North and east of Makedonia. but in Illyria? too far.

a possible good explanation also will be if that balochi is from Jevgs and gabels reachin a peak 6-10% but that should also give 2-5% in Greece and 5-8% Bulgaria and Romania, except if these people were excluded from search as eternal devastation (Indian gypsies).
gypsies are also strong in Ireland I think.
gypsies at balkans were forced to settle at one place mainly at 20th century, and yet they deny modern way of living, so a random sample would include them but a specified search will exclude them, as non habitants of a certain village population,
Istill don't get that Ballochi.

 

[ElHorsto]

6 About Gennetics is strange, and I would like to know if the peaks are general spread or local

I think DNAtribes shows the percentages of non-local components in europe only. This would explain the strange figures and many 0.0% in many fields. It can be interesting for finding historical trails like with Y-HG, but it does not show full ancestry.

 

[Yetos]

There are theories that Scythia (Ukraine) was were the slavic R1a was concentrated before it spread in europe. Although people are saying here that R1b also went through Scythia, so first it might have been R1b then R1a came and displaced it west sometime in the Bronze age or later. Tribes from there have always been nomadic and opportunistically predatory, since the land is a steppe and it is hard to defend a permanent fortification.

Thracians (and Dacians) supposedly had red hair and were the bronze-age R1b invaders of the area, forming an elite over the neolithic indigenous populations, who were probably a mix of E-V13, J2, G, and I. They are related with Illyrians and possibly celts, since the tribes in the west balkan are usually classified as Celto-Illyrian, and tribes in the east balkan as Thraco-Illyrian. Then "very recently" around 400 BC some of them got tired of tribal lifestyle and formed the ancient Macedonian state, which took over part of greece and Illyria and borrowed the greek alphabet (being shepherd tribes they had no alphabet of their own and little use for writing).
Then Alexander the Great became king and took over all the great known empires from persia to india.
Then the romans came along and threw everybody into oblivion.
Then in the middle ages after the hun and the slav invasion, most thracians were dead. Genetically you might find mixed descendants mostly in romania, northern greece, and albania.

what? at 400 BC Thracians got tired of being Thracians and become Makedonians?
so one day they wake up and said, no, we will not be Thracians, we will be Makedonians,
and borrow Greek alphabet?
bettter read again history of Makedonia.

so now Makedonians are not from Fyrom, neither Albanians but Thraqcians?
do you know the other joke
Jesus was born in Betleemo and was Illyro-Thracian.

 

[kamani]

what? at 400 BC Thracians got tired of being Thracians and become Makedonians?
so one day they wake up and said, no, we will not be Thracians, we will be Makedonians,
and borrow Greek alphabet?
bettter read again history of Makedonia.

so now Makedonians are not from Fyrom, neither Albanians but Thraqcians?
do you know the other joke
Jesus was born in Betleemo and was Illyro-Thracian.

would it bother you if ancient macedonians were Illyro-Thracian? Other than greco-centric propaganda, everybody else believes they were not greek. That was a nice diversion thou, pretending you didn't know who the thracians are.

 

[zanipolo]

Scythians were an Iranian steppe people who inhabited the Russian steppe and parts of Central Asia, they were nomadic and some think that their domain extended as far as Mongolia which would explain Mongol use of horses in subsequent centuries. I think most agree that they were mostly R1a.

Thracians lived mostly around the area of Southern Romania and Bulgaria. I don't know much about them, but I have heard people claim that they are related closely to Illyrians. Their haplogroups were likely very varied, due to their exposed location.

Dacians lived in modern day Romania, some think that they were a subset of the Thracians. Their haplogroups I think were very diverse just like that of the Thracians.

All 3 of these groups spoke Indo-European languages. Genetically I think Scythians were overwhelmingly Indo-European, and I think both Dacians and Thracians had an Indo-European elite but most were of Near-Eastern ancestry. Some may have had haplogroup I (especially in the mountainous parts of Romania).

this is the Euro map used, I suggest you read the digest section of the link

http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-europa.html

DNATribes speak of STRs and not SNPs of people.

Dacians are thracians, Dacians are one part of the group

 

[Templar]

this is the Euro map used, I suggest you read the digest section of the link

http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-europa.html

DNATribes speak of STRs and not SNPs of people.

Dacians are thracians, Dacians are one part of the group

Yeah that is exactly what I said. They are likely a subset of the Thracian population, as in all Dacians are Thracian but not all Thracians are Dacian.

 

[MOESAN]

Udmurt markers are also found in continental celtic lands in central europe.

In regards to thracian STRs, it was already in eastern europe prior to migration and to this dat is still the dominant group for the areas in question. Migration was not that great in numbers.

What are your sources about genetic markers shared by Udmurts and continental celtic lands of Europe? what is the precise meaning of "continental Europe" here?

I don't know if it is you but someone said in this thread Udmurts was 'turkic': I was told they are 'uralic' speaking, not 'turkic'...good evening
Moesan

 

[zanipolo]

What are your sources about genetic markers shared by Udmurts and continental celtic lands of Europe? what is the precise meaning of "continental Europe" here?

I don't know if it is you but someone said in this thread Udmurts was 'turkic': I was told they are 'uralic' speaking, not 'turkic'...good evening
Moesan

there is a term called continental celtic ...basically from central europe and east of that and then there is the other celtic western Europe and isles

I think I said they where Turkic , but because I have some of these alleles and no Turkic , then I assume they must not be originally turkic.

my STR tests via DNATribes state Udmurt and later Alans , both are in continental celtic group .......check with there site to find out the markers you seek
Percentages express genetic traces of more ancient links between European populations and neighboring and related world populations.

More information about Mediterranean links between Western Europe (including Galician related populations) and Italy is included in these Digest articles: http://dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2010-11-30.pdf and http://dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2012-07-01.pdf


More information about links between Europe and indigenous ethnic groups of the Caucasus Mountains (such as Balkar populations) is available at http://dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2012-05-01.pdf

 

[Yetos]

would it bother you if ancient macedonians were Illyro-Thracian? Other than greco-centric propaganda, everybody else believes they were not greek. That was a nice diversion thou, pretending you didn't know who the thracians are.

kamani I am not making propaganda, you do.

what illyroThracians? Greek knew Makedonians from 750 Bc and illyrians from 450 Bc,
setting clear difference among them.
Makedonian dialect is known from Alexandreia lexicons.
their words are Greek not illyrian, from 600 Bc we find Makedonian texts written in Greek alphabet not in Thracian neither in Illyrian. Thracian texts written in Greek even today are not explained, like erzerovo ring.
Pella katadesmos (Makedonian) can be explained, Erzerovo ring (Thracian) does not.

when you learn to read the sources, then come back again,

you agree with Herodotos that illyrians are a mix of Cypriots and Levantines and palestinians with Keltos, but then you say E is caycasian,
and then you deny Greek sources about Makedonians cause does not fit your propaganada,

so for you Makedonians were Keltes and Levantines and Thracians, that one day they wake up, they said no, they learn Greek and they decided to be and speak Greek right?

Is that you are telling us?
haven't you something better to tell us?

HAVE YOU READ THE THREADS ABOUT MAKEDONIANS IN THE FORUM?

tell me if I wake up tomorrow and get bored of Being Makedonian will I be Thracian again?

and you tell me about propaganda,


when you learn who Pieri and who Karanos was come back

first you tell us that 92% of modern Greeks are not Greeks and 45% are Albanians,
then you told us that Balkanian E-V13 is Neolithic,
then you told us that Pharaoh Ramses was E Hg so E is caucasian
now you tell us that Makedonians were Thracians that one day decided not to be Thracians but Makedonians,

go to another Albano-Centric foroum to discuss with Zeus10 The Theory that Albanian is mother of IE languages

who knows maybe tomorrow you and Fyrom make Jesus a 'Macedonian' or an Albanian cause a village named Betleemo outside Tettovo.

 

[Templar]

so for you Makedonians were Keltes and Levantines and Thracians, that one day they wake up, they said no, they learn Greek and they decided to be and speak Greek right?

Yetos, keep in mind that conquered people and people who are near a more civilized people, often adopt a new language. Are you saying that all Greeks are descendants of the original Greeks and no-one else is? That is ridiculous.

 

[nordicwarrior]

Yetos, Templar, Kamani--I appreciate those answers very much. I probably have even more questions now than before.

 

[Yetos]

Yetos, keep in mind that conquered people and people who are near a more civilized people, often adopt a new language. Are you saying that all Greeks are descendants of the original Greeks and no-one else is? That is ridiculous.

Templar I am tired of propagandists,

all historians and all archaiological evidence show who Makedonians were,
read my post again and then say what and who ridiculous,
also read the threads in the forum.
threads are to read and make conclusions, not just to write.

when you read it you will understand what I am talking,
people here say that one day Thracians got bored and wake up Makedonians.

I know that in Albania and ex-Yugoslavia that was teached in Schools, but why don't you search about?

ridiculous is to say that 92% of Greek population has nothing to do with Greek.
ridiculous is to say that balkanic E is Caucasian,
ridiculous is what ever has enter our mind from a propaganda, no matter we know it is wrong or false,
but we keep spreading it.

 

[Templar]

Templar I am tired of propagandists,

all historians and all archaiological evidence show who Makedonians were,
read my post again and they say what and who ridiculous,
also read the threads in the forum.
threads are to read and make conclusions, not just to write.

when you read it you will understand what I am talking,
people here say that one day Thracians got bored and wake up Makedonians.

I know that in Albania and ex-Yugoslavia that was teached in Schools, but why don't you search about?

ridiculous is to say that 92% of Greek population has nothing to do with Greek.
ridiculous is to say that balkanic E is Caucasian,
ridiculous is what ever has enter our mind from a propaganda, no matter we know it is wrong or false,
but we keep spreading it.

I hope that you don't think I am a propagandist I think we agree on most things...Who said that Balkan E was from the Caucus? Seems pretty far-fetched. Could it have been the result of Egyptian slaves? Haplogroup E is the most common in Northern Africa, and the most heavily populated part of Northern Africa was Egypt so I think it is possible.

 

[Yetos]

I hope that you don't think I am a propagandist I think we agree on most things...Who said that Balkan E was from the Caucus? Seems pretty far-fetched. Could it have been the result of Egyptian slaves? Haplogroup E is the most common in Northern Africa, and the most heavily populated part of Northern Africa was Egypt so I think it is possible.

templar in my post I wrote a name,

read all posts here and you will understand what I am talking about,
some people think that their propaganda is truth, and Greek should fear it,
I never about modern populations purity, or 100%
that is an episode which you should read by foolowing the posts of someones when you want to have fun,
plz lets keep in Thread,

 

[kamani]

Yetos,
when you start with the greek word games, and the long incoherent nonsense, I know I touched a weak spot..
Look up: George Rawlinson M.A, Canon of Canterbury and Camden Professor of Ancient history at the University of Oxford.
He thinks macedonians were thraco-illyrian. When you become a professor at oxford I might consider your opinion over his.

 

[Yetos]

Yetos,
when you start with the greek word games, and the long incoherent nonsense, I know I touched a weak spot..
Look up: George Rawlinson M.A, Canon of Canterbury and Camden Professor of Ancient history at the University of Oxford.
He thinks macedonians were thraco-illyrian. When you become a professor at oxford I might consider your opinion over his.

Kamani will you bring more dead people?

Canon George Rawlinson (23 November 1812 – 7 October 1902)
his theory is more than 1 century old

Pella katadesmos. and Erzerovo ring have been found lateley after his death,
Varna has been found recently
until Varna we believe that Gold was found in Georgia, today we not,

and goes like chain.

and if you speak about old people

SEARCH HESYCHIUS THE ALEXANDREIAN LEXICON OF MAKEDONIAN LANGUAGE.

when Rawlinson lived we have other criteria and other discoveries, today we have other new that he did not know,
so leave the person rest in peace, and face the modern truth,
Pella katadesmos and Erzerovo ring 2 different languages sharing same alphabet,

WHY YOU DON"T ASK THE MODERN PROFFESORS OF OXFORD TO TELL YOU?

I don't want you to consider my opinion,
in Fact the only I want is to stop bullshit propaganda

Illyro-Thracian was only 1 place Dardania the rest was Illyria and Thrace and 1 was centum and the other satem so plz don't bring me another anachronistic theory.
the rest are your imagination
Illyrian was centum and Albanian is satem and Thracian was satem.
so go find a modern living with good arguements, and not what he believes,
besides you tell so,
send us a link of the work that claims that, and then send as a link if he knew.

I WILL NEVER BE AN OXFORD PROFFESOR,
BUT YOU WILL NEVER LEARN THE TRUTH BELIEVING ANACHRONISTIC THEORIES THAT ARE DROPED BY MODERN BY THE DISCOVERIES AFTER THEM.

Ask the modern proffesors of Oxford and the modern archaiologists of Oxford what they say today not in 1850

in 1850 doctors use other methods
so go to a doctor of 1850 to get healed when you are sick
in 1850 people build with stone and bricks, so don't use concrete today at your house,


Ok my friend?
I will never be an Oxford proffesor, so avoid my opinion and modern scientific discoveries
but tomorrow when you get ill you will go to a doctor that uses 1850-1870 methods,
IS it a DEAL?

in 1700 great proffesors used lyches to cure diseases, does that mean that today we must make the same?
after Rawlinson have you any idea how many discoveries by archaiologists gennetists etc have been found?

Ιπποκρατης Ippocrates was maybe the best doctor at his time, what that means, today we must follow his methods or opinions?

besides I don't know if Rawlington claim that you say, a simmilar, or you claim that using his name,
at least give a book, a work. chapter, publisher year etc,


PS
just look what you say
you have find a weak spot of me?
so your target was I?
wow thank you very much,
so all this time you were aiming me in this forum?
so much time so many posts in the forum and your goal was me?
what can I say after that?