Updated phylogenetic tree of E-V13

Maciamo

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I have updated and expanded the phylogenetic tree of haplogroup E-V13. I changed the layout to show when each clade developed in time so as to get a better idea of when the regional expansions happened.

Many branches of the tree are still missing. There are few Greek, Italian, French and Iberian samples tested for deep clades and hardly any West Asian ones at all except from the Gulf states.

Click on the tree to get to the page outside the forum and click once more to see it in full screen.
 
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So according to this map in the Balkans seems to be younger clades or as old as those in Central and East Europe and possible founder effect in Balkans,it seem like East Europe as possible source,i could think of Carpathian area or beyond,maybe Cucuteni culture?
 
Z5018 was found in Jordan so that branch is not exclusively European.

So according to this map in the Balkans seems to be younger clades or as old as those in Central and East Europe and possible founder effect in Balkans,it seem like East Europe as possible source,i could think of Carpathian area or beyond,maybe Cucuteni culture?
The distribution of V13 has a more south-eastern shift than the distribution of I2a.
 
The distribution looks almost impossible to me. I am Z16988 and if I try to find any pattern back in time, I can see Portugal, Italy and Bulgaria. E-V13 doesn't tell any story at all, it's all around. The lines jump from north to the south and then again back to the north. Like if E-V13 has had a relatively even distribution with different clades in all of the tribes above the Roman border and after the collapse of the empire it spread in all directions.
 
The distribution looks almost impossible to me. I am Z16988 and if I try to find any pattern back in time, I can see Portugal, Italy and Bulgaria. E-V13 doesn't tell any story at all, it's all around. The lines jump from north to the south and then again back to the north. Like if E-V13 has had a relatively even distribution with different clades in all of the tribes above the Roman border and after the collapse of the empire it spread in all directions.

It's true that E-V13 has a mind-boggling distribution pattern that doesn't get much clearer when looking at subclades. That has to do with the fact that this lineage expanded very quickly from a single ancestor living at the onset of the Bronze Age and that E-V13 probably expanded with all Indo-European branches, so that branches can be Indo-Iranian, Balto-Slavic, Mycenaean, Illyrian, Italo-Celtic, and Germanic. To make it worse, it appears that some people, like the Hallstatt Celts, the Romans and the Goths redistributed some clades across wide geographical areas and mixing them with others.

Everything would look clearer if we had sufficient data for deep clades. Unfortunately a lot of people only tested at a level corresponding to the Middle Bronze Age, before the ethnogenesis of most historical people took place. What we need is data at least at the Iron Age or Classical Antiquity level, especially for southern Europe. Other haplogroups like I1, I2, N1c, R1a and R1b have a much higher phylogenetic definition, which makes it possible to trace back historical population movements. With E-V13 all we can do now is guess until more data is available. For example:

- L540 is found mostly in and around Germany and in Scandinavia. It would appear to be Germanic, but all L540 people descend from an ancestor who lived only 2000 years ago - too young to be part of the Germanic ethnogenesis. Additionally it appears to have expanded from Germany to Scandinavia rather than the other way round. So it could have been a lineage brought by the Corded Ware culture to Germany, which then became Celtic or Celto-Germanic until Germanic tribes expanded from Scandinavia to Germany. Only after that, during the Late Antiquity, did it start expanding from Germany, as what would be then be a Germanic lineage.

- CTS9320 has a distribution that could be compatible with a Hallstatt/La Tène Celtic dispersal. But it could also have been diffused by the Goths, if they picked up the lineage in Germany or Poland. The two aren't mutually exclusive. It could have originally spread with the Celts from Central Europe then, when the Goths reached Central Europe, they assimilated tribes with lots of E-V13 and brought more of that lineage across the Balkans. CTS9320 has a TMRCA of 3000 years, which places it right in the Hallstatt period. Its subclades expanded between 2500 and 3000 years ago, which corresponds to the Hallstatt and La Tène Celtic expansions. It's too bad there is almost no data at all from France, Belgium, Switzerland and Austria. Knowing what proportion of E-V13 in each country fits within which clade would go a long way to help us understand the origin of each clade.

- S2979 also expanded during the LBA and Iron Age. It is also found all over Europe, with the addition of Ukraine and Russia (including the Chuvash). The La Tène Celts did migrated to Ukraine and probably as far as the Volga-Ural region based on the presence of R1b-U152 (esp. L2) in the region, including high local frequencies among the Bashkirs. But the Goths also settled in Ukraine and one of their branches almost certainly also found their way to the Volga-Ural. Once again, S2979 could have started as a Celtic lineage then have become Gothic in the Late Antiquity. That would mean that the Goths were a confederation of Germanic, Slavic and Celtic tribes, rather than a solely Germanic tribes.

Alternatively, S2979 could have started as a Corded Ware lineage (found in Russia, Ukraine, Lithuania, Sweden, Germany), then it could have become Baltic and Slavic in Eastern Europe, while other branches in Central Europe were absorbed by the Celts, Goths, etc.

I am still looking for a potentially Illyrian and Mycenaean branch, but without good data from Greece that is not going to be possible. At present the only two samples from Greece belong to the Y35953 and Z17264 (under CTS9320) clades. Not much can be said from only two samples in a country where 21% of the population belongs to E1b1b and most of it is E-V13.
 
If any of you belong to E-V13 and haven't tested for deep clades yet, I'd recommend the E-V13 Panel from YSeq, which tests over 100 clades for 75€.
 
I am Z16988 and if I try to find any pattern back in time, I can see Portugal, Italy and Bulgaria.

I'm also E-Z16988 . If you are interested in further discussion about this branch we both belong to feel free to send me a private message (here on the forum). One of the things which you might be interested in is a recently discovered A11837 subbranch below Z16988.
 
It's true that E-V13 has a mind-boggling distribution pattern that doesn't get much clearer when looking at subclades. That has to do with the fact that this lineage expanded very quickly from a single ancestor living at the onset of the Bronze Age and that E-V13 probably expanded with all Indo-European branches, so that branches can be Indo-Iranian, Balto-Slavic, Mycenaean, Illyrian, Italo-Celtic, and Germanic. To make it worse, it appears that some people, like the Hallstatt Celts, the Romans and the Goths redistributed some clades across wide geographical areas and mixing them with others.

Everything would look clearer if we had sufficient data for deep clades. Unfortunately a lot of people only tested at a level corresponding to the Middle Bronze Age, before the ethnogenesis of most historical people took place. What we need is data at least at the Iron Age or Classical Antiquity level, especially for southern Europe. Other haplogroups like I1, I2, N1c, R1a and R1b have a much higher phylogenetic definition, which makes it possible to trace back historical population movements. With E-V13 all we can do now is guess until more data is available. For example:

- L540 is found mostly in and around Germany and in Scandinavia. It would appear to be Germanic, but all L540 people descend from an ancestor who lived only 2000 years ago - too young to be part of the Germanic ethnogenesis. Additionally it appears to have expanded from Germany to Scandinavia rather than the other way round. So it could have been a lineage brought by the Corded Ware culture to Germany, which then became Celtic or Celto-Germanic until Germanic tribes expanded from Scandinavia to Germany. Only after that, during the Late Antiquity, did it start expanding from Germany, as what would be then be a Germanic lineage.

- CTS9320 has a distribution that could be compatible with a Hallstatt/La Tène Celtic dispersal. But it could also have been diffused by the Goths, if they picked up the lineage in Germany or Poland. The two aren't mutually exclusive. It could have originally spread with the Celts from Central Europe then, when the Goths reached Central Europe, they assimilated tribes with lots of E-V13 and brought more of that lineage across the Balkans. CTS9320 has a TMRCA of 3000 years, which places it right in the Hallstatt period. Its subclades expanded between 2500 and 3000 years ago, which corresponds to the Hallstatt and La Tène Celtic expansions. It's too bad there is almost no data at all from France, Belgium, Switzerland and Austria. Knowing what proportion of E-V13 in each country fits within which clade would go a long way to help us understand the origin of each clade.

- S2979 also expanded during the LBA and Iron Age. It is also found all over Europe, with the addition of Ukraine and Russia (including the Chuvash). The La Tène Celts did migrated to Ukraine and probably as far as the Volga-Ural region based on the presence of R1b-U152 (esp. L2) in the region, including high local frequencies among the Bashkirs. But the Goths also settled in Ukraine and one of their branches almost certainly also found their way to the Volga-Ural. Once again, S2979 could have started as a Celtic lineage then have become Gothic in the Late Antiquity. That would mean that the Goths were a confederation of Germanic, Slavic and Celtic tribes, rather than a solely Germanic tribes.

Alternatively, S2979 could have started as a Corded Ware lineage (found in Russia, Ukraine, Lithuania, Sweden, Germany), then it could have become Baltic and Slavic in Eastern Europe, while other branches in Central Europe were absorbed by the Celts, Goths, etc.

I am still looking for a potentially Illyrian and Mycenaean branch, but without good data from Greece that is not going to be possible. At present the only two samples from Greece belong to the Y35953 and Z17264 (under CTS9320) clades. Not much can be said from only two samples in a country where 21% of the population belongs to E1b1b and most of it is E-V13.
Awesome analysis. Thank you for clarifying it a bit for me. Much appreciated.
 
I'm also E-Z16988 . If you are interested in further discussion about this branch we both belong to feel free to send me a private message (here on the forum). One of the things which you might be interested in is a recently discovered A11837 subbranch below Z16988.
Thanks Shetop. I'll send you a message from my PC back home later.
 
I'm also E-Z16988 . If you are interested in further discussion about this branch we both belong to feel free to send me a private message (here on the forum). One of the things which you might be interested in is a recently discovered A11837 subbranch below Z16988.

Sorry everybody for hijacking the thread, I've sent you a message (two times, just in case) and I'm not sure if it worked, there is still nothing in "Sent Items" folder.
 
Sorry everybody for hijacking the thread, I've sent you a message (two times, just in case) and I'm not sure if it worked, there is still nothing in "Sent Items" folder.

It worked. I responded.
 
There must be one more big correction to the E-V13 tree. The V13 project has discovered, and it has been also confirmed by FTDNA in its new tree, that under CTS5856 exist 3 major branches - S3003/L540, Z16663/Y3593 and BY3880. All of the rest and even the former CTS5856* fall under BY3880. This proves that S3003/L540 and Z16663 are older than Z5017, Z5018, S7461, etc.
Another thing is that just L540 and Z16663 are missing from the Southern Balkans for now (The Pontic Greeks are Eastern Anatolian, not Balkanites), which proves that E-V13 originally expanded into the Balkans and not from it.
 
There must be one more big correction to the E-V13 tree. The V13 project has discovered, and it has been also confirmed by FTDNA in its new tree, that under CTS5856 exist 3 major branches - S3003/L540, Z16663/Y3593 and BY3880. All of the rest and even the former CTS5856* fall under BY3880. This proves that S3003/L540 and Z16663 are older than Z5017, Z5018, S7461, etc.
Another thing is that just L540 and Z16663 are missing from the Southern Balkans for now (The Pontic Greeks are Eastern Anatolian, not Balkanites), which proves that E-V13 originally expanded into the Balkans and not from it.

Good to know. I have updated the tree.
 
- CTS9320 has a distribution that could be compatible with a Hallstatt/La Tène Celtic dispersal. But it could also have been diffused by the Goths, if they picked up the lineage in Germany or Poland. The two aren't mutually exclusive. It could have originally spread with the Celts from Central Europe then, when the Goths reached Central Europe, they assimilated tribes with lots of E-V13 and brought more of that lineage across the Balkans. CTS9320 has a TMRCA of 3000 years, which places it right in the Hallstatt period. Its subclades expanded between 2500 and 3000 years ago, which corresponds to the Hallstatt and La Tène Celtic expansions. It's too bad there is almost no data at all from France, Belgium, Switzerland and Austria. Knowing what proportion of E-V13 in each country fits within which clade would go a long way to help us understand the origin of each clade.

I think, the lack of CTS9320 in France, Austria, Belgium and Switzerland means, that not with the Hallstatt/ La Téne celts arrived in the Carpathian Basin along the Danube. When the celts arrived in the Carpathian Basin, they mixed with the local pannon or proto-illyrian population. Later when the celts pushed east and south, the branches of CTS9320 were already celts. With them and earlier prot-illyrians they spread east and south. So perhaps this is the reason, why the CTS9320 is missing from the West Celtic offspring. It was only among the eastern celts (boii, eravisci, scordisci, anartii, osii, cotini and the galatians)
 
I think, the lack of CTS9320 in France, Austria, Belgium and Switzerland means, that not with the Hallstatt/ La Téne celts arrived in the Carpathian Basin along the Danube. When the celts arrived in the Carpathian Basin, they mixed with the local pannon or proto-illyrian population. Later when the celts pushed east and south, the branches of CTS9320 were already celts. With them and earlier prot-illyrians they spread east and south. So perhaps this is the reason, why the CTS9320 is missing from the West Celtic offspring. It was only among the eastern celts (boii, eravisci, scordisci, anartii, osii, cotini and the galatians)

But CTS9320 is found in Austria, Germany and France. In fact the rare French and Austrian E-V13 samples tested for subclades deep belong to CTS9320. What I meant is that I wished we have dozens (or hundreds) of samples from these countries to get a better idea of the frequency of each E-V13 clade in each country. It's not because 1 out of 1 French sample is CTS9320 that it is necessarily the main clade in France.
 
So the truth is still in the depths of time...

I can accept that our ancestor belonged to Hallstatt celtic groups. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts_in_Transylvania#Helmet_of_Ciumeşti

I think it had an anartian chief property. This celtic helmet was founded only 10 km to east from my home, where my ancestors lived since I know. And I have another Hallstatt celtic ancestor from this region, an R1b-U152-L2-S8172.

This region never belonged to the Roman Empire. After the celts were defeated by the dacians (138 BC), this celtic tribes became dacians. After the roman conquering (106 AC), here, northwest from Dacia province, lived the "free dacians". A few decades later, the free dacians, with german tribes (gepids, victovals, vandals) attacked the Dacian limes. 100 years later the goths arrived, with another branches of EV13.

It's like three people sprinkle water on the floor. A proto illyrian/thracian(cimmerian?), a hallstatt celtic and a gothic. The floor was wet, but because all the buckets had the same amount of water (EV13 branches) it is not possible to tell which water drops are from which bucket.
 
I have updated and expanded the phylogenetic tree of haplogroup E-V13. I changed the layout to show when each clade developed in time so as to get a better idea of when the regional expansions happened.
Many branches of the tree are still missing. There are few Greek, Italian, French and Iberian samples tested for deep clades and hardly any West Asian ones at all except from the Gulf states.
Click on the tree to get to the page outside the forum and click once more to see it in full screen.

Maciamo, not all E-Z38456 Albanians are under Y92017. We have tested a couple of Z38456 Albanians at YSEQ for Y92017 and they both came out negative. Y92017 seems to be a more recent mutation, and currently shared by the two samples coming from the same region (Mirdita, Albania). So IMO, your tree gives the wrong impression to the average viewer, implying that all Z38456 Albanians are under the more recent Y92017 subclade.
 
I think Maciamo should include the Z27131 clade of Z16988 in the tree and label it as Albania since this clade has only been found among the Albanians of Malsia(Kelmendi and Kastrati) so far afaik, so it seems unique to Albanians
 
Maciamo, not all E-Z38456 Albanians are under Y92017. We have tested a couple of Z38456 Albanians at YSEQ for Y92017 and they both came out negative. Y92017 seems to be a more recent mutation, and currently shared by the two samples coming from the same region (Mirdita, Albania). So IMO, your tree gives the wrong impression to the average viewer, implying that all Z38456 Albanians are under the more recent Y92017 subclade.

I guess among those Albanians tested negative for Y92017 must be Maksuti? there is a branch below BY4461 recognizable by a pretty unique STR value of dys454=12. This value is shared by those Dalmatian Serb and Croat haplotypes. Also one Italian from Sicily has it, as does Antal from Bukovina (I think he might be a Szekely).

Interestingly there are several Bulgarians on ftdna that are predicted as possibly Z38456 due to their very high values on dys458. I see now there is a Mihaly 278854 from Bukovina (also Szekely ?) who has more markers (37). There are from Bulgarian study 2 haplotypes from Lovech who share with him dys390=25 + high dys458 so they seem related. ftdna Bulgarians don't have this particular value of dys390=25. These haplotypes have some unusual values for Z38456 like dys447=26, GATAH4=11 (usually it is 12). But they do all keep dys458=19/20, and Mihaly has dys464cd=17-18 (common for all Z17107). This branch is likely more distant from Dalmatian/Italian/Macedonian dys454=12.

Already it is obvious that the TMRCA for Z38456 cannot possibly remain 1650 years, as there exists a Swedish branch (not yet on Yfull) of Z38456>BY4435 and they don't share 20 SNP's with Kaçinar Albanians. That's more likely 2800-2900 ybp territory.
 
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