Updated phylogenetic tree of E-V13

[Riverman]

If you are just https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-PH1173/ the real issue is that goes back to the original LBA-EIA expansion from around 1.200 BC (1.300-900 BC).

To say anything about your lineages journey, you would need to get a subclade downstream of that, because that's just way too upstream for saying anything about Greeks, Albanians etc.

As you probably know, I would associate it with Eastern Urnfield/Daco-Thracian expansions in that time frame. But beyond that, about its later movements and associations, you can't say anything about such old upstream positions.

 

[milli]

If you are just https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-PH1173/ the real issue is that goes back to the original LBA-EIA expansion from around 1.200 BC (1.300-900 BC).

To say anything about your lineages journey, you would need to get a subclade downstream of that, because that's just way too upstream for saying anything about Greeks, Albanians etc.

As you probably know, I would associate it with Eastern Urnfield/Daco-Thracian expansions in that time frame. But beyond that, about its later movements and associations, you can't say anything about such old upstream positions.

I agree, it is a stretch and can only be speculation until more downstream subclades are revealed - just basing it off the comment of a previous user in this thread who seemed to be convinced.

Hopefully more information is revealed and Yfull updates the chart soon-ish. In the meantime I shall LARP as an Athenian and think of ways they could have won the Peloponnesian War lmao.


Anyways, I have a question for you and others: What do you think about FamilyTreeDNA's matching (with other people) service? Like on the 67 marker test, if someone is 6 genetic steps removed, are they really ~700-1200 years removed from a shared common ancestor? Is this legit or no?
I'm only asking because I have matched with a certain English family (multiple people from the same family branch) and this has confused my research efforts a bit.

 

[Riverman]

I agree, it is a stretch and can only be speculation until more downstream subclades are revealed - just basing it off the comment of a previous user in this thread who seemed to be convinced.

Hopefully more information is revealed and Yfull updates the chart soon-ish. In the meantime I shall LARP as an Athenian and think of ways they could have won the Peloponnesian War lmao.


Anyways, I have a question for you and others: What do you think about FamilyTreeDNA's matching (with other people) service? Like on the 67 marker test, if someone is 6 genetic steps removed, are they really ~700-1200 years removed from a shared common ancestor? Is this legit or no?
I'm only asking because I have matched with a certain English family (multiple people from the same family branch) and this has confused my research efforts a bit.

My experience with STR values is that you can't trust them, unless they are really close. If they are really close, they are genealogically related. If they are more distant, borderline to what FTDNA is showing, they might be close, they might be intermediate, they might be very distant. You never know until they have done a BigY test.

The STR value time estimates are for distant matches pretty much worthless. The same is true for people which are no STR matches at all. They can be much closer than most of your STR matches. The STR values become, from a certain TMRCA, kind of unpredictable.

The German-English-Italian-Hungarian connection is something I pointed out multiple times. That there is a closer proximity and relationship between these regions and samples than to the Southern Balkans. There are many branches with a TMRCA in the era between Hallstatt-Vekerzug to La Tene to early Roman periods which overlap between these areas. For Hungary most of the data is from ancient DNA, for Italy most comes from Sardinia. And the Sardinians are a good proxy for Genuese/Liguria, North Italy in my opinion.

However, it depends on the subclade of your English matches. Did any one of them have taken the BigY upgrade? That's decisive, as the STR values can be misleading.

 

[milli]

My experience with STR values is that you can't trust them, unless they are really close. If they are really close, they are genealogically related. If they are more distant, borderline to what FTDNA is showing, they might be close, they might be intermediate, they might be very distant. You never know until they have done a BigY test.

The STR value time estimates are for distant matches pretty much worthless. The same is true for people which are no STR matches at all. They can be much closer than most of your STR matches. The STR values become, from a certain TMRCA, kind of unpredictable.

The German-English-Italian-Hungarian connection is something I pointed out multiple times. That there is a closer proximity and relationship between these regions and samples than to the Southern Balkans. There are many branches with a TMRCA in the era between Hallstatt-Vekerzug to La Tene to early Roman periods which overlap between these areas. For Hungary most of the data is from ancient DNA, for Italy most comes from Sardinia. And the Sardinians are a good proxy for Genuese/Liguria, North Italy in my opinion.

However, it depends on the subclade of your English matches. Did any one of them have taken the BigY upgrade? That's decisive, as the STR values can be misleading.

Thanks for your reply.

Unfortunately none of them have done the BigY upgrade, but I know their subclade is PH1173/BY4281 (my confirmed subclade was BY4330, but also tested positive for BY4281 too - bit confused about this tbh). I thought a Norman connection was possible with them but I was unable to directly trace their surname back to the Norman Conquest.

I like your German-English-Italian-Hungarian connection idea. I always thought the logical major downstream dispersal route is from the Pannonia/Dacia region moving up along the Danube.

Regarding Liguria, many people were brought to Sicily from Liguria (estimated 200,000 between 1100-1300) as the Norman and Swabian rulers sought to Latinize the region. In Sicily, Western Lombard ancestry is the second most common after Greek.

 

[Riverman]

Thanks for your reply.

Unfortunately none of them have done the BigY upgrade, but I know their subclade is PH1173/BY4281 (my confirmed subclade was BY4330, but also tested positive for BY4281 too - bit confused about this tbh). I thought a Norman connection was possible with them but I was unable to directly trace their surname back to the Norman Conquest.

I like your German-English-Italian-Hungarian connection idea. I always thought the logical major downstream dispersal route is from the Pannonia/Dacia region moving up along the Danube.

Regarding Liguria, many people were brought to Sicily from Liguria (estimated 200,000 between 1100-1300) as the Norman and Swabian rulers sought to Latinize the region. In Sicily, Western Lombard ancestry is the second most common after Greek.

I know, that makes it so difficult to discern "actual South Italian" lineages from earlier periods from recent Medieval and modern North Italian arrivals. In Southern Italy, there were multiple streams of E-V13 coming from different people at different times, which brings us back to the subclade being decisive.

 

[milli]

I know, that makes it so difficult to discern "actual South Italian" lineages from earlier periods from recent Medieval and modern North Italian arrivals. In Southern Italy, there were multiple streams of E-V13 coming from different people at different times, which brings us back to the subclade being decisive.

What do you recommend I do to further investigate?

 

[Riverman]

What do you recommend I do to further investigate?

You should upgrade to the BigY and test your most distant, but still safe, male relative to form a subclade for your lineage. By doing so you can be better put into context once new testers pop up.
What else can you do? Ask your most promising relatives whether they want to upgrade to a BigY and if they are better matches, you might even consider sponsoring a test.
There is not much else you can do but waiting and hoping for more ancient and modern DNA samples to come in. You never know when a closer match appears. It might be next week or not in your lifetime. And when the matches appear, they might not be willing to share any information with you - or they might be quite pleasant fellows which like to communicate. Good or bad luck decides it. These are the sometimes rather frustrating rules of this hobby.

 

[epirus1000]

How many E-V13 do we have in the recent study?

"Around half of the 45 individuals between 1 and 250 CE can be fitted with qpAdm models featuring only Balkan Iron Age groups (Figure 2A) and are characterized by a high frequency (5 out of 10) of Y chromosome lineage E-V13 (DataS1, section2), which has been hypothesized to have experienced a Bronze-to-Iron Age expansion in the Balkans. These individuals, sampled from Roman towns such as Viminacium, Tragurium (Trogir), and Mursa(Osijek), are consistent with being direct descendants of local Balkan Iron Age populations (Figure 2A), pointing to a high degree of integration of the local population into Roman society."

Basically, the proto-Albanians were the core of the Roman population and Kosova still remains with similar levels of E-v13.

 

[Hawk]

E-L618 YTree

www.yfull.com

Quite some new E-L618 from Northern Egypt, Monufia.

This just reinforces the Paleolithic-Mesolithic origin of E-L618 in Prehistoric Egypt.

 

[Riverman]

E-L618 YTree

www.yfull.com

Quite some new E-L618 from Northern Egypt, Monufia.

This just reinforces the Paleolithic-Mesolithic origin of E-L618 in Prehistoric Egypt.

It makes it possible, but it could be a so far unknown branch which migrated back in the Neolithic or later. Keep in mind that e.g. with Impresso-Cardial E-L618 spread around the Mediterranean, there might be other branches say in the Levante which moved back too. But quite interesting nevertheless, even though this branch is very shallow, just 2.100 yBP.
That's no diversity but a lone surviving, new E-L618 branch.

With the current sampling, South Western Levante or North Eastern Africa is near certain as a region of origin, but the exact position needsd to be determined still, best with ancient DNA.

Some of the new Egyptians ended up in what I would describe as Sea Peoples branches by the way, like:

E-FGC68920 YTree

www.yfull.com

The E-V13 Egyptians, as far as they have regions, have Northern/Lower Egyptian coordinates, like areas most affected by later migrants.

The new E-L618 branch also, with all samples coming from Al-Minūfiyyah in the North too:

Monufia Governorate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Probably just one clan from the region.

 

[dskos77]

Just got y-111 results as E-M35, only match was a guy with y-12. Paternal line is from deep eastern mani in greece. I posted in the ftdna em35 group too. I used a tool to analyze ancestry results and got e-v13. What should I buy next to get subclades

 

[kingdavid]

Just got y-111 results as E-M35, only match was a guy with y-12. Paternal line is from deep eastern mani in greece. I posted in the ftdna em35 group too. I used a tool to analyze ancestry results and got e-v13. What should I buy next to get subclades

If you want to find your terminal snp
You need to upgrade your 111 markers- to the big y-700 level it should cost much cheeper
Than when a person start from scratch to big-y level

If it is still expensive for you
from time time there are periods of sales at ftdna and that would be good timing to go for it


P.s
when you will have terminal snp
Experts here on e-v13 branches ( riverman) can shed more light on your results

 

[Riverman]

Just got y-111 results as E-M35, only match was a guy with y-12. Paternal line is from deep eastern mani in greece. I posted in the ftdna em35 group too. I used a tool to analyze ancestry results and got e-v13. What should I buy next to get subclades

Do the BigY. Since you have done y111, you can upgrade and your sample is already stored at FTDNA. If its expensive, better save your money until you can buy it, than trying something else. Won't help you on the long run.

Strange that you have just Y12-matches, probably you have a rare, special subclade or unusual STR mutations.

There is still a lack of BigY tested Greeks. Like at y12 I have more than 50 Greek STR matches, but just 5 of those from Greece (not even sure all are ethnic Greeks) are BigY tested.

Getting more BigY-tested Greeks is also good for the research. If you can afford it, go for it. And since you have just bought a y111, you just need to pay the upgrade.

 

[dskos77]

Do the BigY. Since you have done y111, you can upgrade and your sample is already stored at FTDNA. If its expensive, better save your money until you can buy it, than trying something else. Won't help you on the long run.

Strange that you have just Y12-matches, probably you have a rare, special subclade or unusual STR mutations.

There is still a lack of BigY tested Greeks. Like at y12 I have more than 50 Greek STR matches, but just 5 of those from Greece (not even sure all are ethnic Greeks) are BigY tested.

Getting more BigY-tested Greeks is also good for the research. If you can afford it, go for it. And since you have just bought a y111, you just need to pay the upgrade.

yea my match only did the y-12 and is from greece. ill upgrade to big y thanks for the advice guys!

 

[dskos77]

Do the BigY. Since you have done y111, you can upgrade and your sample is already stored at FTDNA. If its expensive, better save your money until you can buy it, than trying something else. Won't help you on the long run.

Strange that you have just Y12-matches, probably you have a rare, special subclade or unusual STR mutations.

There is still a lack of BigY tested Greeks. Like at y12 I have more than 50 Greek STR matches, but just 5 of those from Greece (not even sure all are ethnic Greeks) are BigY tested.

Getting more BigY-tested Greeks is also good for the research. If you can afford it, go for it. And since you have just bought a y111, you just need to pay the upgrade.

big y came in and i got E-FT64983. there’s a couple of ppl from germany and italy under it, i didnt get any matches again though. i could use help dissecting it, from prelim research it seems like a thracian/eastern black sea migration into greece could have been the introduction for my y-line ? just speculating i have limited knowledge about this. also im american (only a quarter greek/cretan) my paternal line is just from deep mani in greece

 

[Hawk]

big y came in and i got E-FT64983. there’s a couple of ppl from germany and italy under it, i didnt get any matches again though. i could use help dissecting it, from prelim research it seems like a thracian/eastern black sea migration into greece could have been the introduction for my y-line ? just speculating i have limited knowledge about this. also im american (only a quarter greek/cretan) my paternal line is just from deep mani in greece

Congrats on your subclade.

IDK exactly how it reached Greece, but Thracians are the safest bet.

During Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age transition similar cultures invaded Greece as well just as Thrace. If material culture in archaeology was correct then after Late Bronze Age E-V13 should appear in Greece atleast in Northern Greece.

Let's see.

 

[dskos77]

Congrats on your subclade.

IDK exactly how it reached Greece, but Thracians are the safest bet.

During Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age transition similar cultures invaded Greece as well just as Thrace. If material culture in archaeology was correct then after Late Bronze Age E-V13 should appear in Greece atleast in Northern Greece.

Let's see.

Thanks!

Yea ~1200bce is a rly interesting time to have a LCA. The by3880 ended up seemingly everywhere in the archaeological records on ftdna and on the yfull tree too, and then y16729 line is split between europe and the Middle East on yfull, and then my subclade is in germany, italy, two private countries, and me in america (my subclade isn’t on yfull yet either). Idk rly interesting and kinda mysterious im having trouble researching it. I have 27 private variants and can share the str results if that helps with anything too. Also im reading thru a lot of the threads on this stuff currently, yall r crazy with the dna knowledge hahahah

 

[Riverman]

Your branch is clearly yet another case for the LBA-EIA transition expansion of E-V13, presumably, in my opinion, with Gáva-related Channelled Ware.
It is just one of the smaller, not as demographically impactful of these groups, yet we don't know for sure how much this is due to undertesting of specific populations, since going back to about 1.200 BC, there are 5 separate branches and one ancient DNA sample from Trogir, Croatia.

It might have reached the Adriatic coast early and dispersed from there? Just an option.

The upstream branch of E-Y16729 is remarkable for having spread to the Near East and two Croatia two times in total in the ancient DNA record. That's remarkable for E-V13. It suggests some position close to the Adriatic or East Mediterranean fairly early on, earlier than most of the other main branches of E-V13, IMHO.

Therefore I wouldn't wonder if this main branch has some sort of presence in Illyrians or Greeks earlier than other branches. Two Croatian samples and no single samples from Avar era Hungary is a statement of its own, for a position close to the Adriatic-Mediterranean sea earlier on.

 

[dskos77]

Your branch is clearly yet another case for the LBA-EIA transition expansion of E-V13, presumably, in my opinion, with Gáva-related Channelled Ware.
It is just one of the smaller, not as demographically impactful of these groups, yet we don't know for sure how much this is due to undertesting of specific populations, since going back to about 1.200 BC, there are 5 separate branches and one ancient DNA sample from Trogir, Croatia.

It might have reached the Adriatic coast early and dispersed from there? Just an option.

The upstream branch of E-Y16729 is remarkable for having spread to the Near East and two Croatia two times in total in the ancient DNA record. That's remarkable for E-V13. It suggests some position close to the Adriatic or East Mediterranean fairly early on, earlier than most of the other main branches of E-V13, IMHO.

Therefore I wouldn't wonder if this main branch has some sort of presence in Illyrians or Greeks earlier than other branches. Two Croatian samples and no single samples from Avar era Hungary is a statement of its own, for a position close to the Adriatic-Mediterranean sea earlier on.

Mmm yea that last paragraph makes a lot of sense, i kinda like the thracian idea too. But yeah two coastal adriatic results as the only archaeological finds is wild considering where all this line ended up. Gonna buy some books on the Mediterranean and Balkan metal ages and hopefully more dna pops up sooner than later, very intrigued now.

Thanks again !

Edit: just realized the trogir is a newborn baby, that’s insane to think about

Another edit sorry, is there a way to get my results on yfull without the subclade listed on there or do i have to wait until more tests come back ?

 

[Riverman]

Mmm yea that last paragraph makes a lot of sense, i kinda like the thracian idea too. But yeah two coastal adriatic results as the only archaeological finds is wild considering where all this line ended up. Gonna buy some books on the Mediterranean and Balkan metal ages and hopefully more dna pops up sooner than later, very intrigued now.

Thanks again !

Edit: just realized the trogir is a newborn baby, that’s insane to think about

Another edit sorry, is there a way to get my results on yfull without the subclade listed on there or do i have to wait until more tests come back ?

YFull assigns to according to your results and the available samples on your branch. Like my own result is much less refined on YFull, since much less people have uploaded there than there are FTDNA branch members.

On second thought, its also possible that if your branch was South Thracian, it could have migrated earlier with Greeks and Romans still, over the sea, than those which might have come in later, like those from the Danube and North of it.
Also, your branch while relatively small is still diverse enoughf or allowing subbranches having gone different routes early on.