Immigration What should Europeans do with illegal immigrants?

[Boreas]

The west is dithering around because of feckless leadership and Russia is filling the vacuum. When Russia controls all the oil in the Middle East do any of you think that it will allow for the free flow of it as was the case in the past. Europe will have to go on its knees to get oil.

I'm appalled by the short shortsightedness, lack of will, and general ineptitude not only of European leadership but of that of the US as well. This has led to Russia, a second world country in every measure but arms, being able to assume the role of a world power in the Near East and filling its own coffers. The US will survive it because of its natural gas and shale oil, but I'm not so sanguine about the prospects for continued prosperity in Europe.

As you sow, so shall you reap.

If this is the real problem for you, oil.

Personally, I hope it happen. I trust EU. With this push, I open a new age in green energy section.

But,

Don't worry, I don't think Iran and Arabs can't be in same pact.

 

[Angela]

If this is the real problem for you, oil.

Personally, I hope it happen. I trust EU. With this push, I open a new age in green energy section.

But,

Don't worry, I don't think Iran and Arabs can't be in same pact.

It won't be a problem for the U.S. It will be a problem for the EU. Like it or lump it, "green technology" costs a lot more. They'll have to charge so much more for their goods that they'll be priced out of the markets. Fewer exports, fewer jobs, and on and on. This is just elementary economics.

Plus, these technologies have their own problems. Here in the US they tried to use corn products...ethanol...it drove up food prices because land was taken away from corn for food and feed for animals, and all that fertilizer to produce the corn drives up the pollution. (I owe that bit to knowledge to my daughter, who did a huge paper on it.)

Will they eventually make these alternative methods cost effective? Probably, but it may be a terrible couple of decades for Europe.

Of course they could build dozens of nuclear power plants, but those aren't very popular, for good reasons, perhaps.

The Arabs won't have much of a say...as always...They seem to be masters of jumping from the frying pan into the fire. Russia will be calling the shots. They think America is the "Great Satan"? Just wait till those racists are in control.

 

[epoch]

India is precisely what I'm talking about. India went through natural split into Pakistan, India and Bangladesh. Since then we have peace there. Likewise, was there Greek/Turkish war after big migration?

You are joking, right? Tell me you are joking and at the very least tried to read something on wikipedia about it.

Do you remember the reshuffle of ethnicities and borders Stalin did in Easter Europe. Well, communism fell but there was no war among them, unlike in Yugoslavia which remained mixed.

Uhm.. Did you at least made some effort to look things up?

Yes, sit on your hands and to nothing, never try new things, they might go wrong!

The last time I checked there are millions o people living there in peace now. And yes some of them left and live in Holland. I think Holland is doomed now and you don't have a job.

So you intend to have millions killed because the result is ethnically cleansed enough to no have ethnical strife and call that progress? Good grief!

Oh contraire, a new research is telling us that immigrants improved lives of natives in 19 out of 20 analyzed countries.
http://www.voxeu.org/article/how-immigration-benefits-natives

A Vox article that has a model that predicts migration being a benefit. We countered that happy-wag-your-tail bullshit with actual real life examples, in this and other threads.

 

[epoch]

Plus, these technologies have their own problems. Here in the US they tried to use corn products...ethanol...it drove up food prices because land was taken away from corn for food and feed for animals, and all that fertilizer to produce the corn drives up the pollution. (I owe that bit to knowledge to my daughter, who did a huge paper on it.)

Most N in N-P-K fertilizer is made of natural gas through the Haber-Bosch process. You may wonder how much more or less energy would have been produced if that natural gas was burned directly rather than go through the proces of making it into fertilizer, grow corn and then burn the ethanol coming from it. The latter does add solar energy to it so I am really curious.

 

[Tomenable]

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/images/syrisches-fluechtlingskind-malt-bild/12369934/1-format43.jpg

On the other hand (switch on English subtitles):

 

[LeBrok]

You are joking, right? Tell me you are joking and at the very least tried to read something on wikipedia about it.

The point was, once they got separated from each other in their own independent countries we have peace in this area of the world since.

Uhm.. Did you at least made some effort to look things up?

Look at Poland, Germany, Czechy, Slovakia, Lithuania, Belorussia. All closed in their borders with pretty much uniform one ethnicities. Communism fell, and we had no war unlike in mixed Yugoslavia. Wait, except Ukraine, where Putin excited Russian majority in East Ukraine to stage independence war.

So you intend to have millions killed because the result is ethnically cleansed enough to no have ethnical strife and call that progress? Good grief!

What millions? There is no "my intention". I'm pointing to natural processes. When in country of mixed ethincities and religions hating each other dictator is gone, domestic war erupts. One of solutions for peace, apart from teaching people tolerance, is to separate them, giving them their own independent countries. And what I'm hearing, your solution is to keep dictator in place indefinitely, right?

A Vox article that has a model that predicts migration being a benefit. We countered that happy-wag-your-tail bullshit with actual real life examples, in this and other threads.

Oh, you counter my scientific and statistical proofs with your anecdotal stories. Sweet.

 

[epoch]

The point was, once they got separated from each other in their own independent countries we have peace in this area of the world since.

Did you actually click on the links? They "got separated" in 1948 and had numerous wars since then.

Look at Poland, Germany, Czechy, Slovakia, Lithuania, Belorussia. All closed in their borders with pretty much uniform one ethnicities. Communism fell, and we had no war unlike in mixed Yugoslavia. Wait, except Ukraine, where Putin excited Russian majority in East Ukraine to stage independence war.

That basically debunks itself.

What millions? There is no "my intention". I'm pointing to natural processes. When in country of mixed ethincities and religions hating each other dictator is gone, domestic war erupts. One of solutions for peace, apart from teaching people tolerance, is to separate them, giving them their own independent countries.

You want boots on the ground and a redrawing of borders. Those are political decisions, potentially costing millions of deaths. Hence you can pose them as solutions, thus making them your intention. If this was a natural process your solution should have been "doing nothing", in order not to disturb the natural process.

And what I'm hearing, your solution is to keep dictator in place indefinitely, right?

I was asked a solution for illegals, and that I gave. Keeping a dictator in place indefinitely was not part of that.

Oh, you counter my scientific and statistical proofs with your anecdotal stories. Sweet.

Even scientific studies can be wrong. We refuted not with anecdotal stories but to links to studies with equally scientific and statistical proof of the opposite.

 

[Angela]

Sorry, guys, that was off topic.

 

[Tomenable]

Do Chinese people have anything against Muslims? Or did they learn "Remove Kebab" song just for fun?:

(anyway - great respect for language skills, sounds like perfect Serbo-Croatian with no foreign accent!):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOECyf3_zTg

 

[bancroft]

Maybe they don't like the word.

 

[F117stealth]

I agree with you in general but would you be that relaxed talking about this issue from inside Europe and not from very far North America?

 

[F117stealth]

It won't be a problem for the U.S. It will be a problem for the EU. Like it or lump it, "green technology" costs a lot more. They'll have to charge so much more for their goods that they'll be priced out of the markets. Fewer exports, fewer jobs, and on and on. This is just elementary economics.

Plus, these technologies have their own problems. Here in the US they tried to use corn products...ethanol...it drove up food prices because land was taken away from corn for food and feed for animals, and all that fertilizer to produce the corn drives up the pollution. (I owe that bit to knowledge to my daughter, who did a huge paper on it.)

Will they eventually make these alternative methods cost effective? Probably, but it may be a terrible couple of decades for Europe.

Of course they could build dozens of nuclear power plants, but those aren't very popular, for good reasons, perhaps.

The Arabs won't have much of a say...as always...They seem to be masters of jumping from the frying pan into the fire. Russia will be calling the shots. They think America is the "Great Satan"? Just wait till those racists are in control.

Have not been to US yet but I am pretty confident that Europe is ahead US when it comes to green energy concept application willingness! Scandinavia and baltic countries use more and more electric cars, in some of the western countries (netherlands maybe best example) one can see more bicycles than cars, more and more eolian & solar power plants are seen in each European country, even in eastern EU. US got power but did almost nothing in this direction. Instead they were enhancing oil production by all means including unconventionals.. Rest of the globe or the "dreamers" is searching for a leader, a true one.. which is difficult to be noted yet though.. Probably we are not ready as humans to take a step forward towards civilization type I as a whole but hopefully this oil crisis will last for a decade so we can accelerate the development process a bit. Otherwise, Italy is a nice country.

 

[Angela]

Have not been to US yet but I am pretty confident that Europe is ahead US when it comes to green energy concept application willingness! Scandinavia and baltic countries use more and more electric cars, in some of the western countries (netherlands maybe best example) one can see more bicycles than cars, more and more eolian & solar power plants are seen in each European country, even in eastern EU. US got power but did almost nothing in this direction. Instead they were enhancing oil production by all means including unconventionals.. Rest of the globe or the "dreamers" is searching for a leader, a true one.. which is difficult to be noted yet though.. Probably we are not ready as humans to take a step forward towards civilization type I as a whole but hopefully this oil crisis will last for a decade so we can accelerate the development process a bit. Otherwise, Italy is a nice country.

Well, thank-you, but don't blame Italy for my opinions. I fight with my Italian relatives all the time about politics and economics. It usually ends with them telling me I've been brainwashed, and I return the compliment! Or, they say I should be quiet until I retire, move back, and have a real stake in the outcome. There they have a point.

I don't want to derail the thread, so I'll leave it at that.

As for the immigration crisis, you can find my opinions upthread.

 

[F117stealth]

Well, thank-you, but don't blame Italy for my opinions.

It was no blame. Sorry if you got it in that way. It was a reminder that you are European.

 

[LeBrok]

Did you actually click on the links? They "got separated" in 1948 and had numerous wars since then.

Obviously the process wasn't finished, wasn't complete. Now there is nothing more happening than sporadic canon shots over Kashmir.

That basically debunks itself.

Were there any intentions hidden?

You want boots on the ground and a redrawing of borders. Those are political decisions, potentially costing millions of deaths. Hence you can pose them as solutions, thus making them your intention. If this was a natural process your solution should have been "doing nothing", in order not to disturb the natural process.

IS (Deash) is not a local issue only, it reaches around the globe with its terrorist attacks and draws volunteers from almost every country. Therefore it is an international issue, and as such should be dealt by international community.

I was asked a solution for illegals, and that I gave. Keeping a dictator in place indefinitely was not part of that.

You were complaining that, because a dictator is gone people are dying and migrants are coming to Europe. So from you statements I read that you don't want to keep dictator in place, you also don't like the mess and ethnic wars when dictator is gone, when locals trying to duke it out among themselves, but you are not in favor of foreign boots on the ground and letting ethnicities to build their own new countries. I have no idea what alternative you leave to them to decide about their own future?

Even scientific studies can be wrong.

Only at the beginning, because for a longer run science is self correcting, and eventually the right science is confirmed by many other scientists.

We refuted not with anecdotal stories but to links to studies with equally scientific and statistical proof of the opposite.

I don't remember anything valid you have posted. Could you re-post the one statistic or scientific paper which confirms your point the most.

 

[Tomenable]

Some absurds of multiculturalism in Germany and France:

 

[bicicleur 2]

Some absurds of multiculturalism in Germany and France:

Germany and France ( and Belgium ) don't exist any more.
It's replaced by something, I don't know what, but it doesn't look nice.

 

[Ike]

Look at Poland, Germany, Czechy, Slovakia, Lithuania, Belorussia. All closed in their borders with pretty much uniform one ethnicities. Communism fell, and we had no war unlike in mixed Yugoslavia.

It seems that in communism multiethnicity prospered, unlike in the system you're trying to impose here - you call it democracy, but you don't allow it to be spelled for real on the forum.

 

[LeBrok]

It seems that in communism multiethnicity prospered, unlike in the system you're trying to impose here - you call it democracy, but you don't allow it to be spelled for real on the forum.

If the real life examples are not convincing to you, I don't know what is? Your vivid imagination I supposed. Multicultural Canada, Australia or US is well and going strong. Multicultural communist Yugoslavia is gone and culminated in brutal civil war. I'll take as true the real life story, not your words. Words of a bitter old communist, who calls "Nazi" everything and every one he doesn't like.

 

[kyrani99]

It won't be a problem for the U.S. It will be a problem for the EU. Like it or lump it, "green technology" costs a lot more. They'll have to charge so much more for their goods that they'll be priced out of the markets. Fewer exports, fewer jobs, and on and on. This is just elementary economics.

Plus, these technologies have their own problems. Here in the US they tried to use corn products...ethanol...it drove up food prices because land was taken away from corn for food and feed for animals, and all that fertilizer to produce the corn drives up the pollution. (I owe that bit to knowledge to my daughter, who did a huge paper on it.)

Will they eventually make these alternative methods cost effective? Probably, but it may be a terrible couple of decades for Europe.

Of course they could build dozens of nuclear power plants, but those aren't very popular, for good reasons, perhaps.

The Arabs won't have much of a say...as always...They seem to be masters of jumping from the frying pan into the fire. Russia will be calling the shots. They think America is the "Great Satan"? Just wait till those racists are in control.

Necessity is the mother of invention!
I think it would be a good thing if the European have to look elsewhere for energy needs. It may be the dawn of a new clean age for the world in energy production and usage. Don't underestimate what necessity can do. It may be a decade or two but it may end up being hundreds of years in front of everyone else.