What would you do if you were drafted?

[Maciamo]

In the end it just becomes killing for the sake of killing.

I don't want to be too cynical again, but one of the purpose of war (except enriching the elite) is to reduce unemployment. It just looks better in the country's fact sheet...

Going a bit further, you could say that the elite hopes to recruit all those unemployed and needy people who are potential criminals, as a preventive mesure against both crime and poverty. The idea is to make them believe that they die for a noble cause, like protecting their country or following god's orders.

 

[Melkor]

I would volunteer so I could get into a position away from the combat.

 

[digicross]

Is there any choice?

Frankly, when the country where you are its current citizens drafted you, you got no choice at all, either participate in it, or move to another country (or at least move beyond the country's authority, one doesn't necessary have to leave the country).

Of course, if you don't like the idea of participating in a war you don't agree on, I'm sure that you willl find some way to duck out of it (doesn't necessary have to leave the country, avoid being drafted, being in jail, and so on). Humans are very resourceful.

It should be noted that, all of the modern wars are done to make people fight each and are initiated by the same group of people anyway. And all of the official countries are actually controlled by the same group of people, and the leaders of these countries are nothing more but subordinates that shared the same boss. That's right. Bush, Saddam, Hitler, Stalin, Churchill, Hirohito, Julius (Caesar), and so on shared the same boss, it's nothing more but a play.

So there's not much use of participating in wars these days.

It's not about taking resources, it's not about taking land, it's not about principles, it's not about freedom, it's not about survival, and so on, it's just about making people fight each other.

There's nothing wrong of participating in a war that you want to participate, but there's something wrong of you being conned into doing something you think is right when it's actually wrong for you (imagine getting tricked to eat ham when what you really want is to eat fish or vegetable), and there's plenty of wrong of participating in a war that you don't want to participate (both for you, the war itself, and every parties that participate), and there's a lot of wrong participating in a war that has no use at all other than to people fight each other (unless of course you like fighting just for the sake fighting).



As for World War II and the current Iraq War.

It's the same. Heck, the people who caused are the same. Heck, the M.O. is the same. Heck, it look very similiar. I wondered why on why some people choose to participate in World War II but refused to participate in the Iraq War.

It should be noted that the current Iraq War like much of its predecessors is done to make people fight each other. For example, there are alot of people around the world fighting each other due the Iraq War, and they don't even participate in the actual battle itself! Hurting other people's feelings probably is worse than killing them, and that's the intention of the wars these days, to hurt people feelings and make them fight each other, not to kill them.



As for being a patriot.

Don't worry. There are other ways of being a patriot and defending your country, you don't necessary have to join a military service, and if you're forced to do so, I'm sure one can easily ducked out of it.

Personally, I find that the easiest way to increasing my spirit of patriotism is to travel to another country. Each time I travel to another country, the more I find my country more interesting and loveable when I returned home.

There are several type of patriotism:

- To yourself.

- To your family.

- To your village.

- To your town.

- To your city.

- To your island.

- To your country.

- To your continent.

- To your species.

- To your planet.

- To your world.

And so on.

There's another type patriotism that due constant negative propaganda get discouraged by some people, that is being patriot to God. But... God prefer if you being just you, that's why God give some guidelines, not to enforce His will on you, but to make sure that you're you. Of course, then there are some people who want to make sure that you're not acting like yourself.

So I guess that the ultimate patriotisme is to be a patriot to yourself.

 

[Maciamo]

So there's not much use of participating in wars these days.

It's not about taking resources, it's not about taking land, it's not about principles, it's not about freedom, it's not about survival, and so on, it's just about making people fight each other.

I agree.

As for World War II and the current Iraq War.

It's the same. Heck, the people who caused are the same. Heck, the M.O. is the same. Heck, it look very similiar. I wondered why on why some people choose to participate in World War II but refused to participate in the Iraq War.

Here I disagree, because WWII was a war for land (Hitler's lebensraum, Japan's empire), for resources (plundered gold, etc.), for ideologies (even if nationalistic or racist), for revenge and pride (Germans still had harsh feelings about their defeat in WWI and the ensuing "Diktat"; Japan wanted to prove it was as strong as Western powers) and about freedom (for those who were occupied). The war in Iraq is nothing like that. At best it is for resources (oil) and freedom (from Saddam's regime), but oil only benefit a few, and freedom is a controversial issues for Iraqi people themselves (some were happier before, others are happier now).

 

[Fantt]

I'm not offended by anyone's opinions here. My primary point is that I view myself as myself first, then a husband, then a father, then more and more things, and then down towards the bottom is whatever "duty" I feel toward my country. My country takes things by force from me without asking me (taxation, etc). My country jails people for crimes which are victimless (drug use, prostitution, etc). My country reserves the right to press me, my child or my wife into military service and to order me or mine to commit acts which I think are deplorable.

I don't think my country is "bad," but my first priority is my own freedom and that of my family. Personal freedom and strong governments don't co-exist well. I care more about the welfare of humanity in general than I do in just those who live within artificial geographical boundries.

 

[ippolito]

I am agree to serve the country...but It seems Iraq is similar to Vietnam...
there will be a defeat not directly on the field like in Vietnam...but as the us soldiers will leave.
Big forces like Us or Russia has been very strong in convetional war...
but both paid for vietcong guerrilla and Afganistan guerrilla in the mountains (Russia)
Iraq...the Allawi gov. I think will be not able to resist to ex saddam and alquaida attachs. So all the deads of the coalisation and iraqui civilians will be dead for nothing. But this is my simple opinion...perhpas the future will be different.
I do not live in Usa and I am not american citizen....so I try to understand what the people think of this strange war. Could you american of this forum tell me how is the humors there about to continue the war or back home????


About american here a funny story ....about the IIww.....
when british were bombing germans were running away....
when german were bombing british and americans were running away....
when american were bombing all were running away.......
bye all

 

[sgt. Pepper]

Well, since Sweden only would go to war if it was attacked, i'd serve my country. I actually look forward to (hopefully) getting to do my military duty when i'm 19.

 

[antantrevolution]

Charging into battle to prevent death? Hmmmm, that's an interesting rationalization. The thing is, the other side is exactly the same as you - a bunch of young guys who don't know why they're there, doing what they're told, trying to keep their buddies from getting killed. So what's the point? Why do they deserve to die any more than you and your buddies? It's all so pointless. In the end it just becomes killing for the sake of killing. I understand that an effective soldier has to put his compassion for the enemy/his fellow man aside, but I don't think I could do it unless I thought the cause was worth my death and theirs. The current cause ain't worth sh.....

Oh, I under NO circumstances meant charging blindly in the hopes of preventing friends casualties! Haha, that would defeat the purpose of preventing them, huh?

What I meant was that, while I do not believe in harming others or by course of action, allow others to be harmed, I know that I would be fully capable of it due to being forced into situations at places in my life where I had to shut off the inhibitor, and ensure the safety of those close to me.

Anyway, I hope that I make more sense now?

Ant

 

[Brooker]

Canadian Asylum

I saw a report about American soldiers fleeing to Canada to avoid being sent back to Iraq. In some cases they've been turned away by the Canadian government. Many of them have requested asylum from the Canadian government because if they return to America they'll be jailed for their political beliefs - they believe the war is wrong. Now Canada is trying to decide if it should grant asylum to these people.

I'm not saying what I think Canada should do because that's up to them, but it seems that a lot of Canadians are proud of the fact that many people became Canadians in the first place because they made a conscious decision not to be American because they had a difference in beliefs. Therefore, it seems that these former soldiers might make the ideal Canadians. They may even become extremely patriotic Canadians because in their minds Canada would have rescued them from a government they disagreed with and that wanted to either send them off to kill or send them to jail.

TORONTO -- Jeremy Hinzman enlisted in the Army in Boston, did a tour in Afghanistan and prepared for elite Ranger school. Then came orders to go to Iraq. He neatly piled his Army gear in his living room at Fort Bragg and fled to Canada with his wife and baby.

No matter how much I wanted to, I could not convince myself that killing someone was ever right," Hinzman, 25, said in an interview here.

Spec. Hinzman is a deserter, one of at least four who have followed the path of Vietnam War resisters a generation ago to seek refuge in Canada. Here, they have been embraced by many from that time -- former peaceniks who are now pillars of the community.

The government is less welcoming. Despite Canada's opposition to the Iraq war, the government also is opposing the deserters' refugee applications, saying the soldiers are not persecuted. It is resisting the argument that the Iraq war is illegal.

"Canada is worried if they grant us refugee status, others would come up," said Hinzman.

Estimates of how many Americans came to Canada in those times [during the Vietnam War] to avoid service in the war range from 30,000 to 90,000. They were invited by the prime minister at the time, Pierre Trudeau, who in 1969 declared Canada to be "a refuge from militarism."

I'd like to know what some of our Canadian members think about this.

 

[Kintaro]

I have to say, if I were drafted, I would not piss and moan about how unjust it is. I would serve with my fellow soldiers in a way that is expected of me. If I were to decide to stay in service after the war, that depends on where my life would be at the time.

There are two terms which I don't know if you're aware of... stop-loss or draft-creep. One reason right there not to get drafted is to run the risk of being forced to go AGAIN.

Would the prospect of being drafted scare me? Hell yes. But that is part of it. I don't look at the majority of our soldiers, and think obedient lapdog of Bush as many around the world may. I see them and I realise they are doing their jobs, and doing what they believe in.

Apparently it is the case for you and a majority of a voluntary military force. The chaos is drafting untrained troops and having them eat the patriotism like chocolate flavored s... against their will

I would not leave the US.

Neither would I considering I don't live there to begin with. This said, anyone who bitches at the possibility of a US draft and wants to move to Canada/NZ/Japan/whatever... but isn't until the last possible moment... I find them weak and wouldn't want them in my country.

I would not become a coward.

The life of one does not gain importance over the lives of the many.

Umm, the opposite is exactly what contemporary existence means (since +/- 1750). At a neutral point, it's not doing anything to aggravate your neighbors. In a negative light, assume an invasion of Canada by the US, I wouldn't care if my neighbors died. I'm here to ensure my survival, and possibly those close to me.

Agree or disagree, I am open for discussion.


Ant

Glad you're open for discussion. There are many faces to this dilemma. What happens if a country sharing a common border with you resorted to mandatory service... what would happen if your own did ?

Canada is not stupid. We know damn well if anything generates into WW3 that our government would do all it could to reinstate the draft. in 1939 the electoral promise of King was NOT to draft (happened in 1917 against our will on order of the British monarchy). But since it was anglophones in 1942 (US+UK) fighting they let the country decide via referendum. Anglo-Canada voted 85 % for. Franco-Canada voted 95 % AGAINST. (And people still wonder why we want to separate, even Anglo-Quebecers)

My father has raised me with very fluid ethics but he has told me two things. 1 is that he'd probably shoot either of his kids if they joined the Canadian Forces. 2 is that one of his uncles has *successfully* avoided the 1942 draft without fleeing the country, and that is one source of pride for the family.

If the US reinstated the draft instantly via presidential decree, two things will happen. Our population will either double quite fast, or the border will shut down completely to block anywhere from 20-50 million people. Probably both.

In any case, it's going to get ugly sometime fairly close. If you resent draft, prepare now to counter it. In the United States, you have the C.O. status. If you do not wish to leave your country (hell, even if you do) then take care of that now. In Canada we can't "CO" at the moment, since the draft was only during wartime and no measures to accept that possibility were implemented. But since we're 10 times less dense than the US, hiding is a possibility still.


I will never surrender my ability to decide who is the enemy.

 

[ippolito]

In Italy for these kind of wars.....we send only volunters that ar generally
professionals.....normal soldiers..shoud be ready (hope never) to defend our territory
from another nation attach.
From this year the youngs are not anymore forced to go in army at 18 year old
but only volunters that will be proffessionists....paid as a work.
As we partecipate with not a great number...actually we have more than 10.000
soldiers in Iraq, Afghanistan, Balcany area and Africa.
I am not so sure about this never ending story of Iraqi war....
I think that all middle east must be treated as one big problem and local problems that needs solutions not only wars..solutions that should be found with Onu
Usa, Europe, and arabic leaders that are not terrorist.
Us cannot continue to bomb every day evrywere killing also children and women
but I understand that it is difficolt to cath the terrorist as they are inside houses ot moscheas....
To continue this war in this way I suppose that could really be another Vietnam.
bye

 

[No-name]

I'm too old, I've got bad feet and I am too heavy. If they draft me, everyone should be worried.

 

[babar-san]

ahh, so many different angles on that one. if dubya was still in offfice, then HELL NO. if it was a president with some brains, behind an obviously good cause, then i would go to war without hesitation. its difficult to decide, because i would have gone to afganistan, but i would have never gone to iraq.

 

[Antifederalist]

Heh heh. I always find it funny how Bush is the most evil, scheming bastard the world has seen in generations, yet at the same time a complete dolt.

But anyway, as much as i wouldn't like the probability of me dying during a day in my life increasing, I would go and serve to the best of my ability.

 

[TwistedMac]

Heh heh. I always find it funny how Bush is the most evil, scheming bastard the world has seen in generations, yet at the same time a complete dolt.

Just like Hitler.

But yeah, I'd serve my country.. My country is my country after-all.. no place like home.

 

[Glenn]

Just like Hitler.

Hitler was certainly not a complete dolt. If he were, he wouldn't have been able to orchestrate that whole Third Reich thing.

 

[TwistedMac]

Hitler was certainly not a complete dolt. If he were, he wouldn't have been able to orchestrate that whole Third Reich thing.

his generals beg to differ. and so does history.

he made some pretty obviously stupid military mistakes.

Nothing he did was ever really very advanced. It just happened to work.

 

[Glenn]

So, you're saying that his whole ruling Germany thing was just pure luck? Just because he botched some military missions doesn't automatically make him an idiot. I'm no idiot, but there are things that I don't do very well, and I make dumb mistakes like everyone else.

 

[TwistedMac]

So, you're saying that his whole ruling Germany thing was just pure luck? Just because he botched some military missions doesn't automatically make him an idiot. I'm no idiot, but there are things that I don't do very well, and I make dumb mistakes like everyone else.

I'm not saying it was pure luck.
He had a go-get-it attitude that made all others pale in comparison.
He saw exactly what he could take advantage of and did as soon as he saw it.

But he believed what people were saying about him. That he was a genious, borderlining on god.

A lot like Bush. He wouldn't be able to become the pres of the US if he were a complete dolt.

 

[Brooker]

TwistedMac wrote...

He wouldn't be able to become the pres of the US if he were a complete dolt.

He did and he is.

Hitler's undoing was that he was TOO confident. He thought he couldn't loose and got way too ambitious with what he thought he could conquer.