Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin

[archaiocapilos]

Now we have a problem. Are the Turks lesser human beings than Greeks?

No we just don't want to be included under Turks or Turkey because we are actually Greeks. Do you have a problem with that too?

 

[barbarian]

Now we have a problem. Are the Turks lesser human beings than Greeks?

No, he doesnt want to say it like this. During the Ottoman empire, all the minorities and natives lived their nationalitty and religious independently. ottomans didnt force them to change their lands or religions. however, the religion difference didnot let the mix of different ethnics. although, it helped the coalitain of different ethnic groups having the same religions. for example armenians, greeks and cypriots are like brothers now. in the same manner, turks and arabs got closer, although they had/have completeley different habits and roots.

Just after the WW1 greece wanted their own country after 2000 years, and had a fight with ottomans which caused some trauma in the both sides. the goverments from the both sides used this trauma for their political benefits. as a result, the children of both sides of agean sea are enemy to each other now.

i live in a small city called karadeniz ereğli (ancient heraklia pontika, heraklia = ereğli; pontika = karadeniz) for 1 year, close to samsun (Amissos) and iznik (Nicomedia). and when i say to native people that they may be from a greek origin, they feel like insulted. they hate greek people.

 

[barbarian]

Most of greek named (most of them reproduced from their original name by adding -io, -ios) anatolian cities were organized during the great colonization era (500-1000 BC) as a greek colony, although there was already a native settlement before greeks were arrived. e.g in archaiocapilos's Sevasteia (and in all capadocia), there was a big hatti settlement 2000-3000 years before greeks were arrived. or in karadeniz ereğli (heraklia pontika), there were mariadyns for more than 2000 years before miletos people arrived (600 BC) and force them to be their slaves, same for trabzon. in this period there were greek colonization even in moldova, ukraine, russia, africa and in italy.

 

[zanipolo]

The western greeks on corfu, zante, ithaca etc etc must have a lot of cretan genes, because after the 23 year war between the Venetians and the Ottomans for Crete in the 17th Century. The arrangement was that the Venetians could take all the items, gold and also people ( be it greek/cretan nobles, merchants and peasants ) who did not want to stay under the Ottomans.

These people, the Venetians placed mainly on Corfu , but the rest where placed on the other Islands to the south.
As you would know there are a lot of cretan surnames which end with -kis on these islands.
These numbers would definetly tip the gene data one way or the other.

 

[iapetoc]

Most of greek named (again most of them reproduced from their original name by adding -io, -ios) anatolian cities were organized during the great colonization era (500-1000 BC) as a greek colony, although there was already a native settlement before greeks were arrived. e.g in archaiocapilos's Sevasteia (and in all capadocia), there was a big hatti settlement 2000-3000 years before greeks were arrived. or in karadeniz ereğli (heraklia pontika), there were mariadyns for more than 2000 years before miletos people arrived (600 BC) and force them to be their slaves, same for trabzon. in this period there were greek colonization even in moldova, ukraine, russia, africa and in italy.

so you know Hatti,

do you know the original name of karadeniz?

ΑXeinos Pontos Αξεινος ποντος Greek
Axaina in Iranian
Cerno in Slavic
possible Askernos in Vrygian (recostructed)
means the color of rust of iron
modern Oxeidosis Oxein = rust
later change the to Euxinus

 

[Maciamo]

But Maciamo correctly sees the inconsistance of placing Kurds under Turkey so he even gives them a non-official region name (Kurdistan/Turkey Kurds)... but he classifies Greeks who speak Greek, live in Greece and would consider it an insult to be called Turks under Turkey. Do you see how biased against Greeks he is?

You are wrong. There is NO category for "Kurds" in the Y-DNA tables, only Kurdistan (separated geographically by country, between Iraq and Turkey because Kurdistan is not independent, although the name for the region is official and internationally recognised). If you cannot see the difference between a region and a people then maybe you shouldn't waste my time on this forum anymore.

My fathers side can trace their ancestry to Smyrna in Ionia, and I would take it as a big insult if I was classified as a turk.

And would it be an insult to say that your ancestors were Anatolian ? Turkey is just the name of a geographic area used for classification. If your ancestors came from modern Turkey/Anatolia, the Y-DNA must be classified under Turkey (which is not the same as "Turks", obviously. Turks are an ethnic minority of Anatolia originally from Central Asia) for the sake of consistency. When I make a category for France, I do not mean to imply that it is the Y-DNA of the Franks, which, like the Turks, were an ethnic group that invaded a region and gave their name to it. Not every region has a unique geographic name for it (like Anatolia), which is why I use modern country names. I also use other geographic divisions, like "North Greece" or "South Germany" or "Auvergne" or "Sicily". It doesn't mean that these are separate ethnic groups, just more specific regions.

Only the Jews have are listed under a non-geographic category because of their wide diaspora and long segregation from the mainstream population in the countries where they lived.

If an American Greek provided his Y-DNA results for a project, he would be classified under Greece if his ancestors came from Greece, and Anatolia/Turkey if his ancestors lived there. Never under USA.

And by the way, I didn't invent the methodology. That is the most common way of classifying Y-DNA, which is why I stick to it.

 

[zanipolo]

My fathers side can trace their ancestry to Smyrna in Ionia, and I would take it as a big insult if I was classified as a turk.

this means nothing, I traced my family , 14 generations ( and still going ) in the veneto, italy and yet I am R1b1c9 s-21 , which IIRC is germanic .......correct me if i am wrong. Which should I claim to be?

some people reflect the nationality they are today and not what they are genetically. I don't think you need to be insulted.

Like the croats ( some ) claim they are illyrian stock and not slavic , the claim is due to being in that area of europe.

 

[iapetoc]

No, he doesnt want to say it like this. During the Ottoman empire, all the minorities and natives lived their nationalitty and religious independently. ottomans didnt force them to change their lands or religions. however, the religion difference didnot let the mix of different ethnics. although, it helped the coalitain of different ethnic groups having the same religions. for example armenians, greeks and cypriots are like brothers now. in the same manner, turks and arabs got closer, although they had/have completeley different habits and roots.

Just after the WW1 greece wanted their own country after 2000 years, and had a fight with ottomans which caused some trauma in the both sides. the goverments from the both sides used this trauma for their political benefits. as a result, the children of both sides of agean sea are enemy to each other now.

i live in a small city called karadeniz ereğli (ancient heraklia pontika, heraklia = ereğli; pontika = karadeniz) for 1 year, close to samsun (Amissos) and iznik (Nicomedia). and when i say to native people that they may be from a greek origin, they feel like insulted. they hate greek people.

today in pontus live 4 Nations,
the most old Is the Greek (mithridates people) and the Laz
the later about 1460 Turks
and the new that was given after 1923,

the case of Hate you talk is Strange Hate, and you know it,
for Greeks they are proud that have Stay pure to old values and language, and to 'truth'
the older turks are proud that they seen the Light of Allah and find the 'truth' but they don't hate and you know it, it is a political hate,
the new Turks after 1923 who occupied the opened land, they do hate enough,
Here where I live many Pontic Greeks and smyrna people live,
when they first came , some 'wise quys' called them Turks espeacially the SEbasteia ones, cause there it was forbiden to speak Greek, it was an insult to them, cause they were proud that kept Greek ID for 400 years,

the ones who moved to Turkey by exchange are proud to be turks and moved them in exchange cause they were proud of Being Turks, they Hate Greeks cause they revolt and ask their Freedom, so they had to move,

the 3rd Part or the old who change Religion, does not Hate, simply believes that they have seen the truth of Allah,
that group is the majority,

If you live there you know what I talking about,

in the next village by me lived a legend who came at 1922 from smyrna at age of 12, until her death 2008, she learn a few Greek,
at 1985 about her son took her to Qutacheia, believe me the video is shoking,
he spoke to some people and 1rst day nobody spoke to her, the 3rd day when visit all she found her house etc, the major speak to her and she answered him to the local dialect, all accepted her, she told her son, My people are here, she even remembered an old water fountain, that was in use any more,
Local people ask her to stay and tell all the historical and local customs he knew,
she even remeber family names, and places after her mother,

the hate is political result,
do you know how many Turks come and visit areas and villages before exchange?
I don't want to give names, but the last Turk that was 20 km by my village, was buried by state, in order of memorance,
her sons are efent in Scutari (asian Polis)

besides since you know Hatti, then you know that Hatti is 1 parameter of Greek people,
and the most closer to hatti language might be the Migrellian language

 

[LeBrok]

No we just don't want to be included under Turks or Turkey because we are actually Greeks. Do you have a problem with that too?

How long do you think it's appropriate to hate or dislike other nations for past crimes? Ten years, Hundred Years, One Thousand Years, Forever?

 

[archaiocapilos]

And would it be an insult to say that your ancestors were Anatolian ?

No because it would be actually true...but my ancestors were also Greeks (at least part Greeks) and being classified under Turkey is an insult (Turkey as a name wasn't even in use back then, Greeks only knew of Turks=[Sultan-Muslims-Jennisaries-Enemies] and they used ancient names for their homeland like Ionia, Pontus, Kappadokia or their cities - Konstantinoupole, Smyrne, Trapezounta, Amissos, Kaisareia etc.)

Turkey is just the name of a geographic area used for classification. If your ancestors came from modern Turkey/Anatolia, the Y-DNA must be classified under Turkey (which is not the same as "Turks", obviously. Turks are an ethnic minority of Anatolia originally from Central Asia) for the sake of consistency. When I make a category for France, I do not mean to imply that it is the Y-DNA of the Franks, which, like the Turks, were an ethnic group that invaded a region and gave their name to it. Not every region has a unique geographic name for it (like Anatolia), which is why I use modern country names. I also use other geographic divisions, like "North Greece" or "South Germany" or "Auvergne" or "Sicily". It doesn't mean that these are separate ethnic groups, just more specific regions.

Come on Maciamo...allthough your Franks/France example seems resonable at first sight, when you make a France category we don't think of Franks obviously, but we think of French people the same way we think Greek people for Greece and Turks for Turkey. That's why I don't like GREEKS being classified under Turkey, even if we are Anatolians in origin. That's why you seperate Kurdistan from Turkey, so we can think of Kurds when we see it. Anyway I'm not able to force you do something you don't want to...

Only the Jews have are listed under a non-geographic category because of their wide diaspora and long segregation from the mainstream population in the countries where they lived.

I explained that the case of Greeks is very similar with that of Jews, don't you see that?
We had a wide and ancient Diaspora (modern countries of Turkey, Syria, Israel, Egypt, Armenia, Georgia, Russia, Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, Fyrom, Austria, Hungary, Egypt) and we kept a kind of segregation (not as strict as the Jewish one offcourse)...
Finally Ionian and other Anatolian Greeks are currently living in Greece and constitute a large section of the population... I'm interestd in origins of Greeks that's why I made the whole thread...

 

[sparkey]

Hmmm

ok Sparkey 1 example question

at least 3-6 million Greeks left Turkey (or died, slained etc) from 1914 times mostly in 1922 -1923 and 1953-4 (from Polis)
majority came to Greece, many of them to ex Ussr, but return back to greece after 78 and then
but at least 1 500 000 went to Usa and Australia,
if some of Them ask a gennetic and proves to be from Smyrna, what you answer him?
Turkish or Greek?

Their genetics should never determine how they're classified in a study, their classification should be determined before we get a genetic result. If their genealogy proves to be from Smyrna as far back as they can trace it, then they would be classified under "Turkey" in a geographic study like Maciamo is doing, and would be classified under "Greek" in an ethnic study like archaiocapilos is doing.

They Are Minor Asian, But what are they Turks?
we are giving Greek Dna to Turks?
souldn't we connect them with Greek?

I hope that there aren't any ethnic studies that are doing this. But, of course, Maciamo's tables aren't ethnic.

I mean 2 tools, 1 the one we have now, and 1 of migrations-refuggees ,
that could help the ones who left abroad to find their gennetic, infact could give more clear vision of clear Y-Dna population of Both

I agree with this.

By the way, as I've mentioned before, I'm sympathetic to the skepticism Greeks have toward Turks. My wife's family includes Assyrians who are skeptical of Turks for similar historical reasons (and it's not like there aren't any instances of Turks attempting to perpetuate the animosity). Although, as always, I wish that people could let history be history and get along with others despite their ethnicity, both the descendants of historical aggressors and historical victims...

 

[iapetoc]

Their genetics should never determine how they're classified in a study, their classification should be determined before we get a genetic result. If their genealogy proves to be from Smyrna as far back as they can trace it, then they would be classified under "Turkey" in a geographic study like Maciamo is doing, and would be classified under "Greek" in an ethnic study like archaiocapilos is doing.

that is what I mention
we classify Jews by religion mostly, due to diaspora, ok
we classify under origin according studies, but should not be as geographical names,

I hope that there aren't any ethnic studies that are doing this. But, of course, Maciamo's tables aren't ethnic.

I don't deny the intense simply for some cases like that the term Minor Asia is not better?

and many other cases, like areas who dwell by 3-4
like armenians Kurds azeris turks,
or caucas areas

 

[archaiocapilos]

How long do you think it's appropriate to hate or dislike other nations for past crimes? Ten years, Hundred Years, One Thousand Years, Forever?

In fact hate and dislike are not something we choose to feel, we just feel it...anyway I don't actually hate Turks (I know that they are not responsible for the crimes of Ottomans and Young Turks) but as I said I don't wnat to be classified under ''Turkey'' category because I and my ancestors never had a Turkish self-identification or felt any closeness to the Turks. Do you get it now?

 

[archaiocapilos]

Most of greek named (most of them reproduced from their original name by adding -io, -ios) anatolian cities were organized during the great colonization era (500-1000 BC) as a greek colony, although there was already a native settlement before greeks were arrived. e.g in archaiocapilos's Sevasteia (and in all capadocia), there was a big hatti settlement 2000-3000 years before greeks were arrived. or in karadeniz ereğli (heraklia pontika), there were mariadyns for more than 2000 years before miletos people arrived (600 BC) and force them to be their slaves, same for trabzon. in this period there were greek colonization even in moldova, ukraine, russia, africa and in italy.

Besides Sinope/Sinop all other Pontic Greek cities were founded by Greeks. Amissos/Samsun was a colony of Sinope and nothing is known for the settlement before Greeks arrived (there could be a little native settlement but I doubt because Greeks usually colonized free seaside areas suitable for trade with the inlanders). Trapezous/Trabzon is a colony of Sinope and always had a Greek name. Nicomedia/Iznik was founded by Dorian-Megarians (Megara-Greece) with the name 'Astakos' but was later renamed Nicomedia in honor of Nicomedes of Bithynia. Megarians also founded Heracleia Pontica/Eregli and it's named after Heracles (a Dorian hero)
When the Greeks settled among natives they didn't enslave them as you say nor did they Hellenized them by force...it was a long proccess of natives adopting Greek culture and intergrating into the main Greek population (Christianity and Roman Empire helped a lot)

 

[zanipolo]

Their genetics should never determine how they're classified in a study, their classification should be determined before we get a genetic result. If their genealogy proves to be from Smyrna as far back as they can trace it, then they would be classified under "Turkey" in a geographic study like Maciamo is doing, and would be classified under "Greek" in an ethnic study like archaiocapilos is doing.




.

thats silly

so the if you trace your family to be Prussian, you say you are classified Polish now!. Do I understand you correctly?

You seem to not realise that nationality ( nations ) only started in the 18th century. Before this it was regional, yes some states like france , which was a kingdom, had a more uniform united system, but others like the german states where only united under the Reichstag, a "union" to provide men and money to the Hapsburgs. As a state you can always withdraw from this "union" and venture on your own, like Bavaria did on more than 1 occasion.

If he traced his family to Smyrna, which is Turkey, was Ottoman, was Byzantine, was Roman, was Ionion Greek and even IIRC was mycenean, then why must he be placed as turkish? because its the latest ?

 

[sparkey]

thats silly

so the if you trace your family to be Prussian, you say you are classified Polish now!. Do I understand you correctly?

No, not "Polish," "Poland." As in, their ancestors can be traced to the region encompassed by modern Poland. There is value in classifying that way. By doing so, we're avoiding the biased assumption that their ancestors were originally from modern Germany, went to modern Poland, and came back to modern Germany--certainly nothing that can be proven. Absent other proven genealogical knowledge, we should take modern Poland as their point of origin. Then, we can make maps that don't make assumptions based on how we suspect ethnic groups to have moved historically.

Again, we can also make tables of ethnicities, at which point it's certainly OK to put Prussians in with Germans. In fact, if we made both tables, we could see how they compare, and deduce how ethnicities moved around, and how much ethnicities that were away from their homeland for a time picked up in terms of genetics from outside their ethnicity.

You seem to not realise that nationality ( nations ) only started in the 18th century. Before this it was regional, yes some states like france , which was a kingdom, had a more uniform united system, but others like the german states where only united under the Reichstag, a "union" to provide men and money to the Hapsburgs. As a state you can always withdraw from this "union" and venture on your own, like Bavaria did on more than 1 occasion.

No, I realize this. Using the regions encompassed by modern countries is usually done for convenience, but you could pick any arbitrary region. If you're really interested in historical Bavaria, for example, you can seek people who are Bavarian as far back as they can trace, even though Bavaria is no longer functioning as an independent state.

If he traced his family to Smyrna, which is Turkey, was Ottoman, was Byzantine, was Roman, was Ionion Greek and even IIRC was mycenean, then why must he be placed as turkish? because its the latest ?

Yeah, convenience. You don't have to if you'd rather compile different geographic tables. For example, a table of just historical Smyrna would be interesting.

 

[zanipolo]

No, not "Polish," "Poland." As in, their ancestors can be traced to the region encompassed by modern Poland. There is value in classifying that way. By doing so, we're avoiding the biased assumption that their ancestors were originally from modern Germany, went to modern Poland, and came back to modern Germany--certainly nothing that can be proven. Absent other proven genealogical knowledge, we should take modern Poland as their point of origin. Then, we can make maps that don't make assumptions based on how we suspect ethnic groups to have moved historically.

Again, we can also make tables of ethnicities, at which point it's certainly OK to put Prussians in with Germans. In fact, if we made both tables, we could see how they compare, and deduce how ethnicities moved around, and how much ethnicities that were away from their homeland for a time picked up in terms of genetics from outside their ethnicity.



No, I realize this. Using the regions encompassed by modern countries is usually done for convenience, but you could pick any arbitrary region. If you're really interested in historical Bavaria, for example, you can seek people who are Bavarian as far back as they can trace, even though Bavaria is no longer functioning as an independent state.



Yeah, convenience. You don't have to if you'd rather compile different geographic tables. For example, a table of just historical Smyrna would be interesting.

ok, good explanation

Hope we do not get another "yugoslavia', then the system will be shown as flawed.

regards

 

[archaiocapilos]

If he traced his family to Smyrna, which is Turkey, was Ottoman, was Byzantine, was Roman, was Ionion Greek and even IIRC was mycenean, then why must he be placed as turkish? because its the latest ?

That is also a good point. You see Smyrna had such a long and continous Greek presence
(from 10th cent. BCE to 1922 CE/ 3000 years!!!!) -Greeks being allways the majority- that is the least Anatolian Greek sample you could find. As I explained Ionians seem very mainstream Greeks like those from the Aegean...Pontic or Cappadocian Greeks would be really helpfull in identifying ancient Greek Y-DNA versus Native Anatolian Y-DNA since they seem more West/Asian-Anatolian than Smyrnians in phenotype... I guess more G2a and J2, less E1b1b and I. The other haplogroups wouldn't be affected.

 

[archaiocapilos]

If I guess right Eastern Anatolian Greeks should be closer to Cretans and Cypriotes (because of ancient Anatolian origin) allthough Cretans received more NW European influence (I1, R1b-L11) while Cypriotes more Mycenean Greek and Levantine (E1b1b1a-M78, E1b1b1c-M123) and at last Eastern Anatolian Greeks more West Asian (J2a, G2a, R1b-L23).

 

[LeBrok]

In fact hate and dislike are not something we choose to feel, we just feel it...?

All right, maybe we are getting somewhere...
Ah, the feelings, we are slaves to them, right? We can't do much because we feel something and we have to act upon it. It's pretty much how humans behave, it's pretty much the truth that we are slaves of feelings. Not sure why we are called homo sapiens then, if we are so overwhelmed by pure animal instincts?
How you act and feel towards Turks and other neighbors is because your identity. You identify yourself as a Greek, no question about this. This is a product of being raised by Greek parents and education in Greek schools. Taking under consideration how subjective most people are, like most parents and teachers, and most historians that right school books, plus greek mass media, we can see and hear years of nationalistic greek education on pages of Eupedia. Off course take my words for it. I'm outsider and impartial to Greece and Turky, and I have very sharp sense of human attitude and emotions.
You can't do much how you feel about other nations now, granted. Take under consideration a fact that if you were adopted by Turkish family as an infant, and raised by them till now. You would feel as proud Turk and act upon these feelings towards greeks for example. Your genetic heritage wouldn't mean a squat. You would feel like a Turk regardless of greek genes. You could blame your Turkish feelings for not understanding greek point of view.
Did you ask yourself why do you act the way you do now? Did you ask yourself if it's good or beneficial to act this way? Is it worth or even proper in international community to act like this? How others feel if I act like this?
By asking these and similar questions, by understanding and empathizing with others, you can change the way you feel in these social settings. Yes, you can change how you feel.
I'm sorry but you are acting like a spoiled brat mister. "I can't do much because I feel this way." Try to act more, and grow up to the name of your spices, home sapiens.
I really wish there was a Socrates these days in Greece. On other hand, he might have had a short life again, lol.

I don't wnat to be classified under ''Turkey'' category because I and my ancestors never had a Turkish self-identification or felt any closeness to the Turks.

Knowing the history of your region, how can you be 100 percent sure that you don't have Turkish blood in you, how?
Hypothetically, how would you feel if today you learned that you were a Turkish kid adopted by Greek family? Would this change your feelings? Would you still feel 100% Greek? Would you start considering Turkey more like friends?