Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?
- Thread starter Dorianfinder
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Valentinian,Sirmium's Emperor:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f0IZyTaJA04
http://understanding-our-past.blogspot.ro/2013/01/the-colossus-of-barletta-statue-of.html?m=1
The Romanian word for church is biserica and comes from basilica,unlike the Western European Latin countries and Greece,that have terms derived from ecclesia,pointing towards the ecclesiastical organization.
It is very clear that this difference comes from the Romanian political and ecclesiastical autonomy, basilica obviously indicates its military origins,the only Latin text from the Balkans who contains the term comes from Sirmium,"In basilica domini nostri Erenei".
https://books.google.ro/books?id=qS...Q#v=onepage&q=basilica roman military&f=false
http://theodialogia.blogspot.ro/2013/04/saints-irenaeus-bishop-of-sirmium-and.html?m=1
Another important fact is that only in Engandine-Romansch, Latin basilica became the main,only,term for church,in all its senses.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f0IZyTaJA04
http://understanding-our-past.blogspot.ro/2013/01/the-colossus-of-barletta-statue-of.html?m=1
The Romanian word for church is biserica and comes from basilica,unlike the Western European Latin countries and Greece,that have terms derived from ecclesia,pointing towards the ecclesiastical organization.
It is very clear that this difference comes from the Romanian political and ecclesiastical autonomy, basilica obviously indicates its military origins,the only Latin text from the Balkans who contains the term comes from Sirmium,"In basilica domini nostri Erenei".
https://books.google.ro/books?id=qS...Q#v=onepage&q=basilica roman military&f=false
http://theodialogia.blogspot.ro/2013/04/saints-irenaeus-bishop-of-sirmium-and.html?m=1
Another important fact is that only in Engandine-Romansch, Latin basilica became the main,only,term for church,in all its senses.
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LABERIA
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This is really interesting. Now read this:
[h=1]floccus[/h]
[h=1]tuft[/h]
Dictionary Albanian-Albanian:
TUFË-A f.
This word has many uses in Albanian
4. Tufë flokësh(Alb)= bunch of hair( i am not sure if the translation is correct, sorry for my english).
It is documented that Albanians until the XX century used to shave their head and keep this this tufë flokësh, bunch of hairs in the back of their head:
LABERIA
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Also, the word passed from Albanian to Greek and greeks use the word kopela for girl.
FIREYWOTAN
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The sights you've shared added a diffent perspective to the ongoing saga of http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...dings/4B*.html. This helped to clarify another source to use. I'm looking forward to expanding my ongoing education and I appreciate your support.
Original Vlach homeland is modern Albania, northern Greece and Macedonia [video]www.imninalu.net/Myths_files/Vlach-expansion.jpg[/video]
Until 12th century there was no any Vlachs in Wallachia (southern Romania).
Vlachs migrated from from Albania, Macedonia and northern Greece to present day southeastern Serbia and western Bulgarian in 9th and 10th century, and from there they migrated in modern southern Romania from 12th to 14th century.
In Wallachia Vlachs assimilated local Slavs, Cumans and Pechenegs and from that mix were created Vlacho-Romanian nation.
Vlachs from eastern Serbia are not native population, they are imigrants from Banat (near Timisoara) and Oltenia.
Vlachs settled in eastern Serbia in period 1718-1739.
Vlachs from eastern Serbia are divided to Carani, Bufani, Ungurjani and Munćani. Ungurjani and Munćani came from Timisoara Banat, and Carani and Bufani came from Oltenia.
Until 12th century there was no any Vlachs in Wallachia (southern Romania).
Vlachs migrated from from Albania, Macedonia and northern Greece to present day southeastern Serbia and western Bulgarian in 9th and 10th century, and from there they migrated in modern southern Romania from 12th to 14th century.
In Wallachia Vlachs assimilated local Slavs, Cumans and Pechenegs and from that mix were created Vlacho-Romanian nation.
Vlachs from eastern Serbia are not native population, they are imigrants from Banat (near Timisoara) and Oltenia.
Vlachs settled in eastern Serbia in period 1718-1739.
Vlachs from eastern Serbia are divided to Carani, Bufani, Ungurjani and Munćani. Ungurjani and Munćani came from Timisoara Banat, and Carani and Bufani came from Oltenia.
hrvat22
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The Vlachs in Croatia mostly came in the Turkish era, most of them are today's Serbs but part of them are and Croats. We see that in presence of not of Slavic origin E1b V13 subclades, R1b Balkan type subclades and part of I2a Dinaric North subclades. Vlachs haplotypes are probably J2 and some R1a subclades. They are very mixed and different origin, but in my opinion the majority is still Albanian origin or originally Illyrian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians#Genetic_studies
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians#Genetic_studies
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
Serbs from Croatia were not Vlachs.
Vast majority of Serbs came to Croatia from eastern Herzegovina and old Herzegovina (western Montenegro).
Autosopmally Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia shifted more northern than Serbs from Serbia, which means that they have less Vlach and more Slavic ancestry than Serbs from Serbia.
hrvat22
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We in Croatia do not have historical records that Serbs come to Croatia except for a couple of records, but there are also mentioned with Vlachs.
For now there is no genetic evidence that anyone comes from eastern Herzegovina and old Herzegovina (western Montenegro) to Croatia. In the eastern Herzegovina and western Montenegro also existed and Croats and it is possible that this Croats come to Croatia but as I say there is no genetic evidence for this migration.
Regarding Croatian Serbs and more northern autosomally it is possible that this is Croat influence or people who have gone to Orthodoxy because part of Croatian Serbs has R1a subclades that are more typical for Croats, although some other influence is possible.
For now it's my personal opinion and in the future genetics will tell the truth.
Dumidre
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There was no Vlach migration from the south side of the Danube to the north side of the Danube...
The Vlachs are the by product of the Daco-Roman symbiosis after the Romans conquered Dacia. After the Romans retreated because they couldn’t control the region anymore some of them went with them, but many remained. So, in my opinion, the Vlachs from the south of the Danube have their ancestry in Dacia also.
Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum
FIREYWOTAN
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Thank you for your referral it helped to add another layer of interpretation. Locating a new resource that improves perception this creates a helpful tool.
Guido Anselmi
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There was no 'original Vlach homeland' as Vlachs were scattered throughout the Balkans, weren't the same people ethnically, and even more confusingly, the term 'Vlach/vlach' meant different things in different places at different times.
Guido Anselmi
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Not only are genetics showing that Croatia's Serbs came from Eastern Hercegovina and NW Montenegro, we also have records of these migrations. The historical picture is becoming clearer with the majority of Serbs in Croatia descended from the Banjani, Drobnjak, and Piper tribes, but not from Old Montenegro nor the Seven Mountain Tribes of Eastern Montenegro. The route taken by these people was from their base towards Ozren in Bosnia, then West towards today's Mrkonjic-Grad and Bosanski Petrovac, from which they then went into all four cardinal directions.
None of these were Croatians. Some of these were of Vlach stock but were already Slavicized.
As for Croatian migrations after the Ottoman Empire's takeover of today's Bosnia, the Bunjevci settled in Lika and the Croatians of Eastern Hercegovina (around Neum, Popovo Polje) moved to the Dubrovnik region while Croatians in West Hercegovina and West Bosnia criss-crossed over into Dalmatia and vice versa depending on the political/security/economic situations of the time of their movements, which were several.
We have a record of the arrival in the late 15th century of actual Vlachs showing up in the Cetina region who were legally and ethnically differentiated from local Croats and Serbs, spoke their own language, but were Catholic unlike the Orthodox Vlachs/Serbs who began showing up.
hrvat22
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We do not have historical records about arrival of Serbs to Croatia, except a few but it's from Bosnia.
Genetics does not show migration from eastern Hercegovina, because genetic evidence for that does not exist.
Prove this migration path with genetic data, in Montenegro also exist and Croats so it is possible that they also come to Croatia, however as I speak genetic data for that migration does not exist.
Prove this migration with genetic data, till then you talk fairy tales.
If part of Croatian Serbs have R1a subclades similar to Croatian R1a subclades then it is possible that they are same origin. Otherwise then all Croats with that R1a subclades come with Vlachs which is unlikely because it is an haplotype that comes with Croats in the 7th century or in the time of Slavic migration.
You have genetics and prove it.
This is one of proofs that Vlachs are coming to Croatia, give me historical records about arrival of Serbs to Croatia and especially from Eastern Herzegovina.
Wonomyro
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That contradicts several historical sources from different time periods.
LABERIA
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Regarding Vlachs there are two theories.
First, they are one of the four branches of the Romanian nation. They are from today Romania and during the middle age they migrated from their homeland. For example Thessaly during the middle age was called Great Wallachia. When Albanians migrated from Epir in Thessaly during the middle age they don't meet Greeks but Vlachs. Basically Dacians.
Second, Vlachs are latinized populations of Epir and from this region they migrated in the direction of Romania. Basically Illyrians.
One thing we know about them for sure. An important British scholar, Τ. Winnifrith(if i am not wrong he is a Vlach) has proven that Vlachs before latinization were not Greeks. And this conclusion of Winnifrith is very important in both cases.
First, they are one of the four branches of the Romanian nation. They are from today Romania and during the middle age they migrated from their homeland. For example Thessaly during the middle age was called Great Wallachia. When Albanians migrated from Epir in Thessaly during the middle age they don't meet Greeks but Vlachs. Basically Dacians.
Second, Vlachs are latinized populations of Epir and from this region they migrated in the direction of Romania. Basically Illyrians.
One thing we know about them for sure. An important British scholar, Τ. Winnifrith(if i am not wrong he is a Vlach) has proven that Vlachs before latinization were not Greeks. And this conclusion of Winnifrith is very important in both cases.
Yetos
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The Vlachs are 2 major Linguistic groups,
5 groups to a lower degree,
The Aromani origin is clear not a nation,but a state citizenship,
1, THE TERMINOLOGY AND ETYMOLOGY OF THE WORD VLACH
comes from the word Villach Βιλλαχιον meaning Village
their language is Aromani, Romani,
2 the Origin of Vlachs
The Vlachs are descending from Local Balcanic pop, Roman Legions, and Slavs,
a. local Balcanic group 1
The Diocletian (Roman emperror) codex FORBID the Greek language above a line,
that created a latinisation or Local pop especially where stong Villas and Roman families existed (Con/polis, Phillipopolis, Beroea (St Zagora) Arnaia etc)
b. THE LEGIONS HOMELAND and DISBAND
where LEGIONS DISBAND, VILLAGES WERE CREATED, So THE SOLDIERS BECOME PEASANTS =VILLACHS (and the sons of Villachs become new legionaires)
i) especially at Moesia (group 2) Legio V Makedonica Legio XI Claudia
that created the Group called MEGLE VLACHS
Megle Vlachs are in Romania, Serbia, North Bulgaria, Hungary, and Moldova.
ii) Legio Flavia Felix group 3
at west balkans specially around NIS and Dalmatia Monte-Negro Albania Kossovo Fyrom, South Serbia, NW Greece
iii) Legio IV Makedonika group 4
That is the mother legio of Kutsuk Vlachs
KUTSUK VLACHS live only in Greece in Thessaly, W Makedonia, and east parts of Sterea
they have nothing to do with Diocletian line or Megle Vlachs
in their lands also devastate Megle and other Vlachs from 1770 and after
3. The Latinised Slavs the ANTES group 5
wiki again
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antes_(people)
I do not think someone can deny this link
4. The Origins Ethnicity and nationality of Vlachs,
a Vlach community according their origin may have Italian German Gaulish Celtic even Iberian, and Greek Thracian Illyrian and Slavic genetical characteristics,
their Ethnicity is that of Roman citizen as that pass through times till the end of East Roman empire,
in their souls they remained faithfull to christianity and Roman state and language.
their modern nationalities are the results of modern states in Balkans after the rebbelions against Ottoman empire
and their personal choices according the part they choose tobelong to.
For example the MoschoVlachs of Moschopolis,
choose the Greek identity instead of the Forced Albanian one
So Modern Vlachs are Greeks Romanians Albanians Montenegrins Moldovans Croatians Bosnians Serbs Bulgarians Fyrom-ians.,
BUT as remnants of the previous ROMAN EMPIRE citizenship not the ancient local populations of Balkans
the rest are political propaganda.
No Group is better than other, and no group is mother/father of another,
5 groups to a lower degree,
The Aromani origin is clear not a nation,but a state citizenship,
1, THE TERMINOLOGY AND ETYMOLOGY OF THE WORD VLACH
comes from the word Villach Βιλλαχιον meaning Village
their language is Aromani, Romani,
2 the Origin of Vlachs
The Vlachs are descending from Local Balcanic pop, Roman Legions, and Slavs,
a. local Balcanic group 1
The Diocletian (Roman emperror) codex FORBID the Greek language above a line,
that created a latinisation or Local pop especially where stong Villas and Roman families existed (Con/polis, Phillipopolis, Beroea (St Zagora) Arnaia etc)
b. THE LEGIONS HOMELAND and DISBAND
where LEGIONS DISBAND, VILLAGES WERE CREATED, So THE SOLDIERS BECOME PEASANTS =VILLACHS (and the sons of Villachs become new legionaires)
i) especially at Moesia (group 2) Legio V Makedonica Legio XI Claudia
that created the Group called MEGLE VLACHS
Megle Vlachs are in Romania, Serbia, North Bulgaria, Hungary, and Moldova.
ii) Legio Flavia Felix group 3
at west balkans specially around NIS and Dalmatia Monte-Negro Albania Kossovo Fyrom, South Serbia, NW Greece
iii) Legio IV Makedonika group 4
That is the mother legio of Kutsuk Vlachs
KUTSUK VLACHS live only in Greece in Thessaly, W Makedonia, and east parts of Sterea
they have nothing to do with Diocletian line or Megle Vlachs
in their lands also devastate Megle and other Vlachs from 1770 and after
3. The Latinised Slavs the ANTES group 5
wiki again
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antes_(people)
I do not think someone can deny this link
4. The Origins Ethnicity and nationality of Vlachs,
a Vlach community according their origin may have Italian German Gaulish Celtic even Iberian, and Greek Thracian Illyrian and Slavic genetical characteristics,
their Ethnicity is that of Roman citizen as that pass through times till the end of East Roman empire,
in their souls they remained faithfull to christianity and Roman state and language.
their modern nationalities are the results of modern states in Balkans after the rebbelions against Ottoman empire
and their personal choices according the part they choose tobelong to.
For example the MoschoVlachs of Moschopolis,
choose the Greek identity instead of the Forced Albanian one
So Modern Vlachs are Greeks Romanians Albanians Montenegrins Moldovans Croatians Bosnians Serbs Bulgarians Fyrom-ians.,
BUT as remnants of the previous ROMAN EMPIRE citizenship not the ancient local populations of Balkans
the rest are political propaganda.
No Group is better than other, and no group is mother/father of another,
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