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Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

Ygorcs said:
So you and the Austrian authors claim that Albanian is not a descendant of Illyria and is linked to Messapian. Okay. But then where does Albanian come from linguistically, which is the ancient linguistic group it derives from or is most closely related to? Some alternative scenario should be proposed, not just denying the Illyrian links.

I have read a pretty sensible (to me) text about other possibilities for the origin of Albanian, and its basic point is that the very Albanian-like substrate in Romanian, the heavy Latin and more specifically Eastern Proto-Romance and many other linguistic and historical factors could indicate that the ancestor of Albanian was spoken in Moesia or somewhere near it in more lowland areas, in present-day Southern Serbia, in close contact with Romanized people before the Slavic and other migrations pressured people out onto the mountainous areas. But then the question would be what Moesian was like, whether it was Daco-Thracian or Illyrian or maybe a separate buffer branch between them.

I actually doubt very much that the entire Balkans had only four native languages during the Roman Empire: Thracian, Dacian, Illyrian and Greek. We should not trust ancient authors to be linguists or even people very interested in the correct linguistic affiliation of foreigners, particularly those they saw as barbarians. People lump together all ethnicities whose language and culture seem broadly similar even today, to the point they make gross mistakes like calling Turks and Iranians "Arabs". I doubt that was not the case in Antiquity.

So in my opinion one should be a bit careful to dismiss any links with Illyrian or with any of the other main linguistic groups identified by the ancient historiography. Those may have been generic terms to make things simpler, roughly like "the Slavs" even if they speak different Slavic languages.

So in my opinion noticeable differences between Albanian and Illyrian, countered by some apparent cognates, may simply indicate that it was actually a branch of related languages, not one common language. Or it could be, as there are also in my opinion plausible evidences to support this, a Central Balkanic language with unknown affiliations, but possibly related to Thracian or Dacian (but then the links with Messapian in South Italy on the other side of the Adriatic would become a bit more challenging to explain).
Click to expand...
Once, an Albanian author of the twentieth century has said:
"A linguist scholar is a writer, who after reading a dozen books, who treat the same subject, wrote the thirteenth book. And of course, this thirteenth does not fail to reproduce accurately, all the mistakes the twelve previous ones already have. "
These theories are not new discoveries. These are things that were discussed and re-discussed during the twentieth century at the highest scientific levels. One of the most important scholars who supported the theory that the Albanians are not autochthonous in the area where they currently live was Gustav Weigand. Its 12 main arguments against the Albanian autochthonous are famous.
The most important Albanian scholar, Eqrem Çabej, a personality that was respected by his colleges worldwide, answered these 12 arguments, and to other things in this paper:
THE PROBLEM OF THE AUTOCHTHONY OF THE ALBANIANS IN THE LIGHT OF PLACE NAMES
The Albanians and their Territories
 
Wonomyro said:
I’ll be free to use data provided by @Jajar Bingan, as they seem to be in accordance with some academic papers. To do some comparisons I created two South Slavic groups based on majority of percentages of certain genetic components and tried to check how they relate to other groupings (historical, cultural, and linguistic).
Click to expand...

I can see the following scenarios that could explain this difference. Obviously ancient DNA will elucidate these mysteries with time.

Either there were less natives on the Northern side of West Balkans or they were more Central European shifted.
However, given the yDNA distribution in Slovenia and Croatia vs Serbia for example, one can see that the Slavic specific R1a and I2 occur at higher frequencies in the former. There's also significantly more R1b in Slovenia.
So the territory of Serbia must have had a higher population of Balkan-specific natives.
In cases like that of Bulgaria, population replacement was relatively kept to a minimum and the natives mostly changed their language.


From highest I2a + R1a to lowest

[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Region/Haplo[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]I1[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]I2a[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]I2b[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]R1a[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]R1b[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]G2a[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]J2[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]J1[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]E1b1b[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]T[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]Q[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]N1c1[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]Sample size[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Bosnia[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]4.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]50.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]18[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]5.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]11.5[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]697[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Croatia[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]5.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]37[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]24[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]8.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]2.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]1325[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR="class: alt, bgcolor: #ECE8DA"]
[TD="class: left"]Slovenia[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]20.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]38[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]18[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]2.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]465[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR="class: alt, bgcolor: #ECE8DA"]
[TD="class: left"]Serbia[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]34[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]18[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]2.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]15[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]2.5[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]1788[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR="class: alt, bgcolor: #ECE8DA"]
[TD="class: left"]Bulgaria[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]20[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]17[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]11[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]11[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]23.5[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]1057[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR="class: alt, bgcolor: #ECE8DA"]
[TD="class: left"]Montenegro[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]29.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]7.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]9.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]2.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]27[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]404[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR="class: alt, bgcolor: #ECE8DA"]
[TD="class: left"]Macedonia[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]23[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]13.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]12.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]14[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]21.5[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]698[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Non-Slavs

[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Moldova[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]21[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]30.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]16[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]13[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]125[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Romania[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]28[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]2.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]18[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]15.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]13.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]14[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]989[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR="class: alt, bgcolor: #ECE8DA"]
[TD="class: left"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]9.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]11.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]15.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]6.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]23[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]21[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]4.5[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]1261[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Albania[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]12[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]16[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]19.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]27.5[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
markod said:
Vladimir Orel places Albanian around the southern Carpathians, much in agreement with the Austrian scholars.
Click to expand...

Again the koçi-boçi theory?
 
JajarBingan said:
I can see the following scenarios that could explain this difference. Obviously ancient DNA will elucidate these mysteries with time.

Either there were less natives on the Northern side of West Balkans or they were more Central European shifted.
However, given the yDNA distribution in Slovenia and Croatia vs Serbia for example, one can see that the Slavic specific R1a and I2 occur at higher frequencies in the former. There's also significantly more R1b in Slovenia.
So the territory of Serbia must have had a higher population of Balkan-specific natives.
In cases like that of Bulgaria, population replacement was relatively kept to a minimum and the natives mostly changed their language.


From highest I2a + R1a to lowest

[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Region/Haplo[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]I1[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]I2a[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]I2b[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]R1a[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]R1b[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]G2a[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]J2[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]J1[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]E1b1b[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]T[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]Q[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]N1c1[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]Sample size[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Bosnia[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]4.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]50.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]18[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]5.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]11.5[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]697[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Croatia[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]5.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]37[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]24[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]8.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]2.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]1325[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR="class: alt, bgcolor: #ECE8DA"]
[TD="class: left"]Slovenia[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]20.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]38[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]18[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]2.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]465[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR="class: alt, bgcolor: #ECE8DA"]
[TD="class: left"]Serbia[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]34[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]18[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]2.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]15[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]2.5[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]1788[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR="class: alt, bgcolor: #ECE8DA"]
[TD="class: left"]Bulgaria[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]20[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]17[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]11[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]11[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]23.5[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]1057[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR="class: alt, bgcolor: #ECE8DA"]
[TD="class: left"]Montenegro[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]29.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]7.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]9.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]2.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]27[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]404[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR="class: alt, bgcolor: #ECE8DA"]
[TD="class: left"]Macedonia[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]23[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]13.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]12.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]14[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]21.5[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]698[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Non-Slavs

[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Moldova[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]21[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]30.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]16[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]13[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]125[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Romania[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]28[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]2.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]18[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]15.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]13.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]14[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]989[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR="class: alt, bgcolor: #ECE8DA"]
[TD="class: left"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]9.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]11.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]15.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]6.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]23[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]21[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]4.5[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]1261[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Albania[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]12[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]16[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]19.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]27.5[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...
Albania shows no sample size, here is the actual percentages of Ghegs and Tosks combined, with a sample size of 209:

Ghegs themselves would have as little as 1-3% R1a+I2a-CTS10228

Scr1-1.jpg
 
Fatherland said:
Albania shows no sample size, here is the actual percentages of Ghegs and Tosks combined, with a sample size of 209:

Ghegs themselves would have as little as 1-3% R1a+I2a-CTS10228

Scr1-1.jpg
Click to expand...

Contact Maciamo with sources for these references and he will update the average. This is how I've done it for Romania.
 
Tutkun Arnaut said:
If Albanian was spoken in Moesia how did Albanian get 7% of its vocabulary from Doric Greek?
Click to expand...

That can be easily explained if Albanian was spoken in Moesia or more specifically the southern half of Moesia, and Ancient Macedonian was indeed, as many authors claim, a Northwest Greek dialect closely related to Doric. Macedonia is not very far at all from southern Moesia. The assumption that Albanian must mot have been originally in a very southerly place in the Western Balkans comes, among other reasons, from the fact that Albanian was profoundly changed by Latin superstrate, even some would say partially Romanized. But Latin only became a really dominant mother tongue for most of the local Balkanites roughly north of Macedonia and Epirus. Greek was used even by the Romans themselves in the southern And southeastern Balkans. And the relationships with Eastern Proto-Romance, which probably arose not in present day Romania, but roughly in Serbia and its surroundings, also indicate a homeland a bit farther from the Adriatic (the lack of maritime vocabulary also suggests that) and north of the Greek-dominated area, bu not too much because the language was also exposed to contacts with Greek and Western Proto-Romance. Moesia, including present day Kosovo, would fit these linguistic hintsvreally well.
 
Lenab said:
What on earth have I said that's pro Serbian against your posts and your friends posts that are all Pro Albanian?

No one cares if Albanians are European or not and no one cares if you all descend from Illyrians
Click to expand...

Then stop talking about Albanians.
This is not a thread on the Albanians, but about the South Slavs. Of course, since the Albanians are the indigenous population of this region, it is normal that they can be part of this discourse, but this does not mean that this thread has to turn in to a thread about the Albanians. Stop with this your obsession.
 
LABERIA said:
Then stop talking about Albanians.
This is not a thread on the Albanians, but about the South Slavs. Of course, since the Albanians are the indigenous population of this region, it is normal that they can be part of this discourse, but this does not mean that this thread has to turn in to a thread about the Albanians. Stop with this your obsession.
Click to expand...
No I forgot this a Italian and Albanian based forum anyone else is a spastic or misinformed even though it's more like the other way around. Especially amusing when those people don't even live in the countries they claim the people look like generally.
 
I'll tell you something for free a Serbian patriot would not like a Croatians comments or speak with him in a romantic way. That should also answer quickly as to how obsessed I am about Albanians or the toss I give about the Italians.
 
Ygorcs said:
That can be easily explained if Albanian was spoken in Moesia or more specifically the southern half of Moesia, and Ancient Macedonian was indeed, as many authors claim, a Northwest Greek dialect closely related to Doric. Macedonia is not very far at all from southern Moesia. The assumption that Albanian must mot have been originally in a very southerly place in the Western Balkans comes, among other reasons, from the fact that Albanian was profoundly changed by Latin superstrate, even some would say partially Romanized. But Latin only became a really dominant mother tongue for most of the local Balkanites roughly north of Macedonia and Epirus. Greek was used even by the Romans themselves in the southern And southeastern Balkans. And the relationships with Eastern Proto-Romance, which probably arose not in present day Romania, but roughly in Serbia and its surroundings, also indicate a homeland a bit farther from the Adriatic (the lack of maritime vocabulary also suggests that) and north of the Greek-dominated area, bu not too much because the language was also exposed to contacts with Greek and Western Proto-Romance. Moesia, including present day Kosovo, would fit these linguistic hintsvreally well.
Click to expand...


It wasn't just in their populations but please, don't forget Macedonia too and I mean Former Yugoslav also.
 
markod said:
Vladimir Orel places Albanian around the southern Carpathians, much in agreement with the Austrian scholars.
Click to expand...

Based on what clues? And wdo they venture to say anything about the linguistic affiliation of Albanian in Antiquity? The southern Carpathians in Romania itself sound a bit weird to me as a homeland for a language with lots of early, "classical" Latin borrowings as well as lots of Greek ones, and later lots of Western Romance-like borrowings, too. If he meant southwestern of the Carpathians I would be more convinced, but I would really like to understand what reasons he presents to an even more easterly location. Does he subscribe to the (arguably usubstantiated) claim of Romanian nationalism that Dacia was thoroughly Romanized since the early and relatively short-lived Roman occupation? I also think the presence of Messapian on the other side of the Adriatic should point to a homeland at least expanding into the Western Balkans.
 
Lenab said:
Montenegrin are not Serbians who are mixed with Albanians they only have the highest amount of E3b between them E3b in Europe is highest in Albania/Montenegro but they are closer to general Balkan Slavs who are Pontid

If you want the Dinaric race barely exists in South Serbia but...North Serbians it's in a majority you can translate it if you want.
Click to expand...
The Montenegrins are mostly Albanians assimilated in Slavs.
 
Lenab said:
No I forgot this a Italian and Albanian based forum anyone else is a spastic or misinformed even though it's more like the other way around. Especially amusing when those people don't even live in the countries they claim the people look like generally.
Click to expand...
You live in Britain according to flag, are 1/8 Serbian and arguably one of the biggest radical Serbo-nationalists.
 
JajarBingan said:
I can see the following scenarios that could explain this difference. Obviously ancient DNA will elucidate these mysteries with time.

Either there were less natives on the Northern side of West Balkans or they were more Central European shifted.
However, given the yDNA distribution in Slovenia and Croatia vs Serbia for example, one can see that the Slavic specific R1a and I2 occur at higher frequencies in the former. There's also significantly more R1b in Slovenia.
So the territory of Serbia must have had a higher population of Balkan-specific natives.
In cases like that of Bulgaria, population replacement was relatively kept to a minimum and the natives mostly changed their language.


From highest I2a + R1a to lowest

[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Region/Haplo[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]I1[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]I2a[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]I2b[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]R1a[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]R1b[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]G2a[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]J2[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]J1[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]E1b1b[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]T[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]Q[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]N1c1[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]Sample size[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Bosnia[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]4.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]50.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]18[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]5.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]11.5[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]697[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Croatia[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]5.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]37[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]24[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]8.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]2.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]1325[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR="class: alt, bgcolor: #ECE8DA"]
[TD="class: left"]Slovenia[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]20.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]38[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]18[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]2.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]465[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR="class: alt, bgcolor: #ECE8DA"]
[TD="class: left"]Serbia[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]34[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]18[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]2.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]15[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]2.5[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]1788[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR="class: alt, bgcolor: #ECE8DA"]
[TD="class: left"]Bulgaria[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]20[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]17[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]11[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]11[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]23.5[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]1057[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR="class: alt, bgcolor: #ECE8DA"]
[TD="class: left"]Montenegro[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]29.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]7.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]9.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]2.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]27[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]404[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR="class: alt, bgcolor: #ECE8DA"]
[TD="class: left"]Macedonia[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]23[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]13.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]12.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]14[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]21.5[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]698[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Non-Slavs

[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Moldova[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]21[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]30.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]16[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]13[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]125[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Romania[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]28[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]2.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]18[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]15.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]13.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]14[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]989[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR="class: alt, bgcolor: #ECE8DA"]
[TD="class: left"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]9.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]11.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]15.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]6.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]23[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]21[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]4.5[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]1261[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Albania[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]12[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]16[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]19.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]27.5[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: samples, align: center"]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...



The question is, which genetics Serbs had before settling to Serbia from Dinaric regions and Croatia?

When we look data of the origin of Šumadian(Serbian) population, we will see that among them there are very few natives. In the Šumadian areas: Kačeru, Gruži, Lepenici, Kragujevacu, Jasenici, Smederevskom Podunavlju, Jasenica, Kosmaj and villages in the vicinity of Belgrade, the origin of 8894 gender with 52,475 houses was tested. Of this number, there are only 464 families with 3603 autochthonous people, there are and some inhabitants of unknown origin (470 gender with 2464 houses), all the rest of Šumadijan population is imigrated families 7960 gender with 46,408 houses. The inhabitants of Šumadija were settled by settlers from almost all parts of today's kingdom, but most of them are from Dinaric areas, i.e. from Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Sjenica and Novi Pazar, from Kolasin, from Peštera and Bihor, from Dalmatia, Lika and other Dinaric regions.
Click to expand...

http://www.srpsko-nasledje.rs/sr-l/1998/10/article-1.html
 
LABERIA said:
The Montenegrins are mostly Albanians assimilated in Slavs.
Click to expand...
No they are mainly South Serbs with a haplogroup 1 haplogroup they share that means they have 1 common genetic ancestor and it's both their main genetic ancestor it means that South Serbs are the most Southern and the less Slavic.

I agree most Albanians in the Balkans descend from Paleolithic Balkan people not full blown Slavs including South Slavs
 
Fatherland said:
You live in Britain according to flag, are 1/8 Serbian and arguably one of the biggest radical Serbo-nationalists.
Click to expand...
And you don't live in Albania and you're arguably a Albanian nationalist.
 
Ygorcs said:
Based on what clues? And wdo they venture to say anything about the linguistic affiliation of Albanian in Antiquity? The southern Carpathians in Romania itself sound a bit weird to me as a homeland for a language with lots of early, "classical" Latin borrowings as well as lots of Greek ones, and later lots of Western Romance-like borrowings, too. If he meant southwestern of the Carpathians I would be more convinced, but I would really like to understand what reasons he presents to an even more easterly location. Does he subscribe to the (arguably usubstantiated) claim of Romanian nationalism that Dacia was thoroughly Romanized since the early and relatively short-lived Roman occupation? I also think the presence of Messapian on the other side of the Adriatic should point to a homeland at least expanding into the Western Balkans.
Click to expand...

Based on toponymy & language contacts. We'd be talking more about the very southern tip of the Carpathians though - more like the region of present day Serbia.

There's a lot about this that can be debated of course, but at least it's a model and not just political myth-making. There was never any real reaosn to believe that Albanian descends from Illyrian.
 
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