J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Robotnick]

I don't think Cetina was all J-L283, but from reading earlier posts it seems some think that the R-L2 such as at Bezdanjaca cave represent incomers from the Tumulus Culture with J-L283 preceding them in places like Dalmatia. I suppose I am wondering if those R-L2 people were likely Italics of some sort, perhaps related to Veneti and Liburni, or rather if they might have been somehow related to the formation of the Illyrians. I am also curious about if and how these Bronze Age R-L2 and J-L283 people may have come together as one so that by the Iron Age perhaps both have fused to become Iapodes, Liburni, perhaps other Illyrians, etc.

Perhaps some of these questions are unanswerable still but was curious as to if genetics has shed any light on older archeological speculations, etc.

I'm also thinking the Osco-Umbrians in general may be related to this clash of L2 and J-L283 in the Balkans or Pannonia, though in what area at what timeframe and with what relation to other likely Italic (Venetic, Liburnian) and Illyrian peoples I'm unsure.

 

[torzio]

I don't think Cetina was all J-L283, but from reading earlier posts it seems some think that the R-L2 such as at Bezdanjaca cave represent incomers from the Tumulus Culture with J-L283 preceding them in places like Dalmatia. I suppose I am wondering if those R-L2 people were likely Italics of some sort, perhaps related to Veneti and Liburni, or rather if they might have been somehow related to the formation of the Illyrians. I am also curious about if and how these Bronze Age R-L2 and J-L283 people may have come together as one so that by the Iron Age perhaps both have fused to become Iapodes, Liburni, perhaps other Illyrians, etc.

Perhaps some of these questions are unanswerable still but was curious as to if genetics has shed any light on older archeological speculations, etc.

Illyrians where mixing with Adriatic Italians long before they where mixing with any other balkan people.
you have Samnites and Sabellics, Picenes and Umbri to name a few

Japodes, Delmatae, Daorsi, catani, Histrians, Liburnians where all living and intermarrying since late bronze-age

 

[Gwydion]

Illyrians where mixing with Adriatic Italians long before they where mixing with any other balkan people.
you have Samnites and Sabellics, Picenes and Umbri to name a few

Japodes, Delmatae, Daorsi, catani, Histrians, Liburnians where all living and intermarrying since late bronze-age

So are you of the opinion then that the real or original Illyrians were the J-L283 people and the Bronze Age R-L2 people of north Croatia, Slovenia, etc. were some sort of Italics who would be absorbed to become Illyrians?

 

[TetaEglantina]

So are you of the opinion then that the real or original Illyrians were the J-L283 people and the Bronze Age R-L2 people of north Croatia, Slovenia, etc. were some sort of Italics who would be absorbed to become Illyrians?

Originally R-L2 spread with Bell Beaker culture -
"The vast majority of Bell Beaker R1b samples belonged to the U152 > L2 clade (11 out of 14; the other being P312 or L51)."

Have a look at the ancient samples here -

R-L2 YTree

www.yfull.com

haplotree.info - ancientdna.info. Map based on All Ancient DNA v. 2.07.26.

haplotree.info - ancientdna.info. Map based on All Ancient DNA v. 2.07.26.

 

[Gwydion]

Originally R-L2 spread with Bell Beaker culture -
"The vast majority of Bell Beaker R1b samples belonged to the U152 > L2 clade (11 out of 14; the other being P312 or L51)."

True. From what I've read the U152>L2 found at locations like Bezdanjaca likely represents Tumulus/Urnfield migration from the east Alpine or Danubian sphere. Were these some sort of proto-Italics or could they be somehow involved in the formation of languages later classified as Illyrian or is this something not able to be discerned with our present data? Further was the relationship with J-L283 really initially hostile as some posts I've read here and elsewhere imply?

It seems in terms of ancient samples J-L283 are more numerous at various sites in Croatia, etc. than these branches of R-L2/R-Z49 I am mentioning. Does this indicate that R-L2 was a minority assimilated into the more dominant J-L283? These are the sorts of things I am trying to understand better.

 

[Polska]

True. From what I've read the U152>L2 found at locations like Bezdanjaca likely represents Tumulus/Urnfield migration from the east Alpine or Danubian sphere. Were these some sort of proto-Italics or could they be somehow involved in the formation of languages later classified as Illyrian or is this something not able to be discerned with our present data? Further was the relationship with J-L283 really initially hostile as some posts I've read here and elsewhere imply?

It seems in terms of ancient samples J-L283 are more numerous at various sites in Croatia, etc. than these branches of R-L2/R-Z49 I am mentioning. Does this indicate that R-L2 was a minority assimilated into the more dominant J-L283? These are the sorts of things I am trying to understand better.

I think you’re hitting all the big points and your understanding is pretty strong given the fact that you only recently started reading up on these topics.

Though not R1b-L2, there was also an R1b Z2118 discovered in the Cetina Valley as part of the Cetina finds in Croatia.

R-Z2118 YTree

www.yfull.com

It’s an interesting branch that does show some minor similarities with J2b L283 with a formation date around 5700 ybp and many branches dated around 5100 ybp. His autosomal ancestry was very similar to the J2b L283 samples he was buried alongside, but he could be modeled as being more of a local and the L283 there in Cetina seemed to pull towards the KTL01 sample (Cernavoda) and Ukraine Neolithic. Like R1b-L2, it looks to have moved in from the north and was connected with TC and possibly these BB people. R1b L2 having an estimated formation date around 2300 BCE and with ancient samples from Czech Republic matching that same age, that was likely where your original paternal ancestors came from before moving south.

So I think what you’ve described is a contact zone between these various lineages. There were Bell Beaker artifacts found amongst Cetina, so clearly there was trade going on between these groups. When people are trading, they are less likely to be fighting, so I happen to think these groups got along just fine for the most part. If anything, there might have been more infighting amongst various L283 tribes throughout the western Balkans which is what prevented the Illyrians from becoming a more cohesive group over time. But they definitely had a good run.

I could see L2 being a minority possibly assimilated by more northwestern Balkan L283 tribes and vice versa as you’ve suggested. There is a good diversity of J2b L283 Cetina and later Illyrian lineages stretching from Slovenia in the north down through Croatia, Montenegro, Albania, and even Greece (Big assumption here is that the Mycenaean J2b L283 descends from Cetina, even though it’s an older branch not previously found amongst Cetina). Lots of variety amongst L283 living samples as well from the Western Balkans, Central Balkans, and even Eastern Balkans whereas this isn’t the case with L2 from what I can tell. For these reasons, I don’t think that L2 would have been a core part of the original ethnogenesis of the Illyrian people.

 

[TetaEglantina]

True. From what I've read the U152>L2 found at locations like Bezdanjaca likely represents Tumulus/Urnfield migration from the east Alpine or Danubian sphere. Were these some sort of proto-Italics or could they be somehow involved in the formation of languages later classified as Illyrian or is this something not able to be discerned with our present data? Further was the relationship with J-L283 really initially hostile as some posts I've read here and elsewhere imply?

It seems in terms of ancient samples J-L283 are more numerous at various sites in Croatia, etc. than these branches of R-L2/R-Z49 I am mentioning. Does this indicate that R-L2 was a minority assimilated into the more dominant J-L283? These are the sorts of things I am trying to understand better.

Tumulus and Urnfield are completely different cultures, R-L2 being spread by Tumulus is far more likely and Cetina was pretty similar but so far illyrians seem to be 95%+ J-l283. The R-L2 presence in Britain could be pre Roman, or at least some of it.

 

[Robotnick]

As I understand, R-L2, along with all other P312 and Bell-Beaker proper was part of the Italo-Celtic horizon.
The Illyrian language seems, at least by recent scholarship, to be closer to Paleo-Balkan, Greek, etc... thus descending from Catacomb Yamnaya rather than Corded Ware-Bell Beaker.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong about any of this though.

I think R-L2's presence in the Upper Danube, Pannonia and the Balkans decreased over time starting sometime in the Bronze Age with expanding Illyrian peoples. Some of it may have been assimilated while others were likely driven out by these Proto-Illyrians, which may have prompted certain Italic migrations into Italy.

 

[Polska]

As I understand, R-L2, along with all other P312 and Bell-Beaker proper was part of the Italo-Celtic horizon.
The Illyrian language seems, at least by recent scholarship, to be closer to Paleo-Balkan, Greek, etc... thus descending from Catacomb Yamnaya rather than Corded Ware-Bell Beaker.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong about any of this though.

I think R-L2's presence in the Upper Danube, Pannonia and the Balkans decreased over time starting sometime in the Bronze Age with expanding Illyrian peoples. Some of it may have been assimilated while others were likely driven out by these Proto-Illyrians, which may have prompted certain Italic migrations into Italy.

That all sounds correct to me. Corded Ware / Bell Beaker groups being derived ultimately from somewhere in the forest steppe and Catacomb/Yamnaya associated groups moving through the dry steppe closer to the Black Sea coast and working their way into the Balkans via the Danube or straight through the mountains in Romania into Hungary.

 

[TetaEglantina]

As I understand, R-L2, along with all other P312 and Bell-Beaker proper was part of the Italo-Celtic horizon.
The Illyrian language seems, at least by recent scholarship, to be closer to Paleo-Balkan, Greek, etc... thus descending from Catacomb Yamnaya rather than Corded Ware-Bell Beaker.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong about any of this though.

I think R-L2's presence in the Upper Danube, Pannonia and the Balkans decreased over time starting sometime in the Bronze Age with expanding Illyrian peoples. Some of it may have been assimilated while others were likely driven out by these Proto-Illyrians, which may have prompted certain Italic migrations into Italy.

I doubt italo celtic formed in 2500BC.

This study suggests there was a large scale migration into Britain in late bronze age, maybe these were the celts -

Large-Scale Migration into Britain During the Middle to Late Bronze Age

Present-day people from England and Wales harbour more ancestry derived from Early European Farmers (EEF) than people of the Early Bronze Age[] . To understand this, we generated genome-wide data from 793 individuals, increasing data from the Middle to ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It's not very clear on the exact date, it could line up either with Urnfield or Hallstatt. However these people were not cremating so it kind of rules out Urnfield, it looks like Urnfield ended in Britain after this big migration happened -

"In the Late Bronze Age the practice of cremation continued, but after 3000 years ago ashes were deposited in shallow pits without a pottery vessel, although they may have been wrapped in perishable materials. By 2800 years ago, cremation had virtually disappeared. Very little is known about the disposal of the dead in this period. A few inhumations with metalwork have been found and some metal hoards contain human bone. Human skulls are found in association with water deposits of weapons in the Thames, perhaps suggesting a move towards sacred water rites with the Thames acting as a British Ganges. Burials in peat and fenland areas are known in East Anglia from this period, especially around Methwold. A few intact skeletons of this period show evidence for violent ends."

 

[Gwydion]

As I understand, R-L2, along with all other P312 and Bell-Beaker proper was part of the Italo-Celtic horizon.
The Illyrian language seems, at least by recent scholarship, to be closer to Paleo-Balkan, Greek, etc... thus descending from Catacomb Yamnaya rather than Corded Ware-Bell Beaker.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong about any of this though.

I think R-L2's presence in the Upper Danube, Pannonia and the Balkans decreased over time starting sometime in the Bronze Age with expanding Illyrian peoples. Some of it may have been assimilated while others were likely driven out by these Proto-Illyrians, which may have prompted certain Italic migrations into Italy.

That's what I thought as well, namely that R-U152 seems mostly associated with the Italo-Celts. Since some claim the Liburnians and Veneti both spoke an Italic or para-Italic language I figured perhaps these R-L2 samples I mentioned might represent proto-Veneti, Histri, Liburni, etc. as others have speculated. Indeed at least according to this map proto-Italic was formed or spoken in the general area in question:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Proto-italique.png

That said I am no expert but apparently some scholars older and newer have associated the Illyrians with incomers from the north, whether Tumulus or Urnfield. From what I understand this may have been the position of Gimbutas, Hermann Olberg, Stipcevic, and Matzinger so apparently it must have been a hypothesis shared by archeologists and linguists.

 

[TetaEglantina]

That's what I thought as well, namely that R-U152 seems mostly associated with the Italo-Celts. Since some claim the Liburnians and Veneti both spoke an Italic or para-Italic language I figured perhaps these R-L2 samples I mentioned might represent proto-Veneti, Histri, Liburni, etc. as others have speculated. Indeed at least according to this map proto-Italic was formed or spoken in the general area in question:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Proto-italique.png

That said I am no expert but apparently some scholars older and newer have associated the Illyrians with incomers from the north, whether Tumulus or Urnfield. From what I understand this may have been the position of Gimbutas, Hermann Olberg, Stipcevic, and Matzinger so apparently it must have been a hypothesis shared by archeologists and linguists.

Illyrians buried their dead and used tumuli. Though some illyrians were influenced by Urnfield such as Japodes -

Japodian burial urns - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Gwydion]

Illyrians buried their dead and used tumuli. Though some illyrians were influenced by Urnfield such as Japodes -

Japodian burial urns - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Well as I believe you suggested earlier some of the R-L2 samples I mention seem Tumulus culture mediated rather than Urnfield since one (not my branch but a related one) is found in Broion, Italy circa 1500 BCE.

Does anyone have any further information on the identity of the so-called Dolenjska/Unterkrain culture around Novo Mesto? It appears they used an Illyrian burial rite and I believe ancient J-L283 has been found as part of the group. With these things you cant be absolutely certain but I believe my branch is connected to this wider group which based on current data can be said to have stretched from Lika in the south (Bezdanjaca) north toward Lower Carniola and Rijeka and finally stretching east toward modern Zagreb. Who would the mixed R-L2 and J-L283 population of this area represent?

Oddly whatever group this is appears to probably have spread into Italy both via land into Friuli and likely via sea to places like Teramo but for whatever reason are completely absent in nearby Bosnia. Was there some geographical or historical cause that would separate the aforementioned area from Bosnia, most of Serbia (excluding the aDNA samples at Svilos), Montenegro, etc.?

 

[torzio]

As I understand, R-L2, along with all other P312 and Bell-Beaker proper was part of the Italo-Celtic horizon.
The Illyrian language seems, at least by recent scholarship, to be closer to Paleo-Balkan, Greek, etc... thus descending from Catacomb Yamnaya rather than Corded Ware-Bell Beaker.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong about any of this though.

I think R-L2's presence in the Upper Danube, Pannonia and the Balkans decreased over time starting sometime in the Bronze Age with expanding Illyrian peoples. Some of it may have been assimilated while others were likely driven out by these Proto-Illyrians, which may have prompted certain Italic migrations into Italy.

What Illyrian language ??

The Daunians who arrived in Italy ( Foggia area ) in the late bronze-age had already converted to their Italic neighbours the Samnites, both in ethnicity and linguistically ( if they had their own language , never proven )

Or.........Do you refer to "messapic" be it a mix of Epirote and Mycenaean from Argos area ................they did not arrive in Italy until around 650BCE .................we known this because Argos Greeks found modern Taranto circa 740BC and there is no mention of their neighbours being anything except ancient indigenous Italic tribes

 

[norbert]

J-L283 is probably a pre-Indo-European haplogroup that was assimilated by the incoming Illyrians from the north. The latter were more likely bearers of R1b-U152 and R-L2 which are associated with the Italo-Celtic peoples or tribes but must have been closer to the Celtic component. But at the end of the day, the number of investigated samples is too low for any reasonable conclusions. What is noticeable is the fact that most of the Balkanic J-L283 seems to be mainly concentrated along the Adriatic coast or in its immediate hinterland and, like I said, it is a pre-IE substrate among the Illyrians and for example the Liburnians, who were not Illyrians ethnically, culturally and linguistically but inhabited the territory of the Roman province of Illyricum. As far as I know, the most widely accepted theory classifies the Liburnians as being related to the Adriatic Veneti. The Albanians got their J-L283 through the assimilation of the already romanised Illyrians when they arrived in what is present-day Albania and the territory of the Illyrii proprie dicti.

 

[torzio]

@norbert

the term Illyrii proprie dicti. was a iron age term for a number of "illyrian" tribes which formed into a kingdom in modern Montenegro.................the map below indicates the tribes in white writing which formed this kingdom.............note these tribes original names never appeared again after the kingdom was formed.

 

[Robotnick]

What Illyrian language ??

The Daunians who arrived in Italy ( Foggia area ) in the late bronze-age had already converted to their Italic neighbours the Samnites, both in ethnicity and linguistically ( if they had their own language , never proven )

Or.........Do you refer to "messapic" be it a mix of Epirote and Mycenaean from Argos area ................they did not arrive in Italy until around 650BCE .................we known this because Argos Greeks found modern Taranto circa 740BC and there is no mention of their neighbours being anything except ancient indigenous Italic tribes

I don't know the exact consensus of scholars but it appears Messapic and Illyrian are seen as related, even though neither are well attested, and they are lumped in (by some, at least) with Paleo-Balkan IE languages as opposed to Italic, which would support them deriving from Catacomb Yamnaya rather than Corded Ware-Bell Beaker as is the case of U152 and Italo-Celtic languages.

I'm not saying any of this is conclusive, but that's what I lean towards. Of course these Daunian and Messapic settlers probably received Oscan influence in subsequent centuries after settling in Southeast Italy.

https://imgur.com/K5wqbeo

From the wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapic_language

 

[Viramund]

J-L283 is probably a pre-Indo-European haplogroup that was assimilated by the incoming Illyrians from the north. The latter were more likely bearers of R1b-U152 and R-L2 which are associated with the Italo-Celtic peoples or tribes but must have been closer to the Celtic component. But at the end of the day, the number of investigated samples is too low for any reasonable conclusions. What is noticeable is the fact that most of the Balkanic J-L283 seems to be mainly concentrated along the Adriatic coast or in its immediate hinterland and, like I said, it is a pre-IE substrate among the Illyrians and for example the Liburnians, who were not Illyrians ethnically, culturally and linguistically but inhabited the territory of the Roman province of Illyricum. As far as I know, the most widely accepted theory classifies the Liburnians as being related to the Adriatic Veneti. The Albanians got their J-L283 through the assimilation of the already romanised Illyrians when they arrived in what is present-day Albania and the territory of the Illyrii proprie dicti.

This is the most illogical post in this entire thread, R1b-U152 subclades brought illyrian languages to the balkans? A language family that had little to do with italo-celtic. If anything R1b-Z2103 was the one who introduced proto-illyrian to the region. Your theory is so non sensical that it is even more unlikely than the hypothesis of J-L283 being the vector of proto illyrian into the west balkans.

 

[Polska]

Here’s a preprint that does a pretty good job of covering some of these questions about who were the Illyrians and the contact zone to their north. All of this was in the context of trying to pin down the origins of the Albanian language. J2b L283 is a bit of a mysterious lineage just like the Albanian language, so I don’t think it’s too surprising that the two go hand in hand.

From the paper, Ancient DNA reveals the origins of the Albanians:

“Haplogroup J2b-Z600 branched off its parent lineage J2b-L283 around 3500-3000 BCE (77, 78). Current sampling suggests that J2b-Z600 was absent from the European Neolithic-Chalcolithic (Fig. 8), as it appears abruptly on the aDNA record in the Serbian Bronze Age (2100-1800BCE) in a Maros cultural context, alongside the parent subclade of R1b-BY611 (Fig. S9) (5, 79). This places two of the most frequent paternal lineages of the Albanians (Fig. S9) in the Central-West Balkans by the EBA (Figs. 8-9, S9). Haplogroup J2b-Z600 experienced a major founder effect and diversification in the ancient populations of the Adriatic coast (Albania, Croatia, Montenegro), where it accounts for 50-70% of all paternal lineages during the BA-IA (Figs. 8-9), and has been found in samples associated with major West Balkan archaeological cultural expressions, most notably in Maros, Cetina, Japodian and Liburnian contexts (Tables S23-S24, S28) (5, 79). Coupled with its remarkably local distribution in pre-Roman times (Fig. S10), J2b-Z600 may represent a reliable indicator of ultimate Bronze Age-Iron Age West Balkan paternal ancestry. The distributional expansion of J2b-Z600 in northern and western Europe in Roman and post-Roman times (Figs. 8-9, S10) is not surprising, as the West Balkans supplied the Empire with mercenaries, soldiers, and Emperors for centuries (7–9). Within an Albanian context, J2b-Z600 subclades found in BA-IA, Roman and Medieval Albania (Bardhoc, Çinamak), Montenegro (Doclea, Velika Gruda), and Southern Croatia (Gardun, Gudnja cave), have daughter or sister lineages in modern Albanians (Table S34), suggesting significant paternal continuity from ancient south-west Balkan populations identified as “Illyrians” by classical authors (Fig. S11). aDNA samples from Roman Serbia (Sviloš, Viminacium) and Late Avar-Medieval Hungary (Alattyán, Sárrétudvari) belong to J2b-Z600 lineages related to those of modern Albanians (Table S34), indicating an ultimately south-west Balkan paternal origin for these individuals, which corroborates inscriptional and historical evidence for transplantations of “Illyrian” soldiers along the Limes (8, 9).”

Ancient DNA reveals the origins of the Albanians

The origins of the Albanian people have vexed linguists and historians for centuries, as Albanians first appear in the historical record in the 11th century CE, while their language is one of the most enigmatic branches of the Indo-European family. To identify the populations that contributed to...

www.biorxiv.org

So there was a robust diversification of many J2b L283 lineages starting around 3200 ybp to 2900 ybp. This perfectly overlaps with the expansion of various Illyrian tribes throughout the western Balkans and eastern Adriatic coast.
Were it my study, I would not have mentioned the J2b L283 Z600 branch, but would have honed in on Z615 and below. Z615 and Z597 have similar formation dates around 5300-5000 ybp. The Mokrin sample from Serbia (perhaps western Yamnaya derived) and the 4 Mycenaean shaft grave samples from Petroto, Greece all belong to J2b L283 Z615.

J-Z615 YTree

www.yfull.com

I‘d like to see more sampling from BA and IA Bosnia and Serbia. Hopefully we see another paper soon that covers all or some of these areas.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Here’s a preprint that does a pretty good job of covering some of these questions about who were the Illyrians and the contact zone to their north. All of this was in the context of trying to pin down the origins of the Albanian language. J2b L283 is a bit of a mysterious lineage just like the Albanian language, so I don’t think it’s too surprising that the two go hand in hand.

From the paper, Ancient DNA reveals the origins of the Albanians:

“Haplogroup J2b-Z600 branched off its parent lineage J2b-L283 around 3500-3000 BCE (77, 78). Current sampling suggests that J2b-Z600 was absent from the European Neolithic-Chalcolithic (Fig. 8), as it appears abruptly on the aDNA record in the Serbian Bronze Age (2100-1800BCE) in a Maros cultural context, alongside the parent subclade of R1b-BY611 (Fig. S9) (5, 79). This places two of the most frequent paternal lineages of the Albanians (Fig. S9) in the Central-West Balkans by the EBA (Figs. 8-9, S9). Haplogroup J2b-Z600 experienced a major founder effect and diversification in the ancient populations of the Adriatic coast (Albania, Croatia, Montenegro), where it accounts for 50-70% of all paternal lineages during the BA-IA (Figs. 8-9), and has been found in samples associated with major West Balkan archaeological cultural expressions, most notably in Maros, Cetina, Japodian and Liburnian contexts (Tables S23-S24, S28) (5, 79). Coupled with its remarkably local distribution in pre-Roman times (Fig. S10), J2b-Z600 may represent a reliable indicator of ultimate Bronze Age-Iron Age West Balkan paternal ancestry. The distributional expansion of J2b-Z600 in northern and western Europe in Roman and post-Roman times (Figs. 8-9, S10) is not surprising, as the West Balkans supplied the Empire with mercenaries, soldiers, and Emperors for centuries (7–9). Within an Albanian context, J2b-Z600 subclades found in BA-IA, Roman and Medieval Albania (Bardhoc, Çinamak), Montenegro (Doclea, Velika Gruda), and Southern Croatia (Gardun, Gudnja cave), have daughter or sister lineages in modern Albanians (Table S34), suggesting significant paternal continuity from ancient south-west Balkan populations identified as “Illyrians” by classical authors (Fig. S11). aDNA samples from Roman Serbia (Sviloš, Viminacium) and Late Avar-Medieval Hungary (Alattyán, Sárrétudvari) belong to J2b-Z600 lineages related to those of modern Albanians (Table S34), indicating an ultimately south-west Balkan paternal origin for these individuals, which corroborates inscriptional and historical evidence for transplantations of “Illyrian” soldiers along the Limes (8, 9).”

Ancient DNA reveals the origins of the Albanians

The origins of the Albanian people have vexed linguists and historians for centuries, as Albanians first appear in the historical record in the 11th century CE, while their language is one of the most enigmatic branches of the Indo-European family. To identify the populations that contributed to...

www.biorxiv.org

So there was a robust diversification of many J2b L283 lineages starting around 3200 ybp to 2900 ybp. This perfectly overlaps with the expansion of various Illyrian tribes throughout the western Balkans and eastern Adriatic coast.
Were it my study, I would not have mentioned the J2b L283 Z600 branch, but would have honed in on Z615 and below. Z615 and Z597 have similar formation dates around 5300-5000 ybp. The Mokrin sample from Serbia (perhaps western Yamnaya derived) and the 4 Mycenaean shaft grave samples from Petroto, Greece all belong to J2b L283 Z615.

J-Z615 YTree

www.yfull.com

I‘d like to see more sampling from BA and IA Bosnia and Serbia. Hopefully we see another paper soon that covers all or some of these areas.

Your spot on as usual Polska. Not sure how one can argue proto-Illyrians were anything but L283, and L283 is anything but steppe related in 2023, given it has been one of the best represented haplogroups in recent studies. It's a grave disregard for facts.

1. Illyrians first mentioned 700BC - Almost all samples from this period in the Illyrian territories L283.
2. Earliest samples predating the mention of Illyrians by 1200 years (Maros, Shkrel, Croatia). Hence the proto.
3. All(70+) but 3(?) samples with clear and substantial steppe ancestry. Those three easily explainable by autosomal dillution in Sardegna.
4. Early L283 samples in Croatia, Serbia and Albania showing strong Steppe autosomal signature. IIRC even when we had only 3 Balkan samples this was obvious to Maciamo in his blog posts.

I would be aggravated reading the ignorance some people flaunt, were it not for the writing on the wall just making it comic.

And it feels good having my direct line found in Grotta delle Mura, and Velika/Mala Gruda, a walk away from where I live already 3100 years ago. Wish some haters get to taste that satisfaction, as the way they seethe is not pleasant to see.