J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[torzio]

It is amazing that after all these years people cannot come to terms with the fact that illyrian is not one tribal group , the term illyrian is like the term British................there will never be a illyrian language found
The Illyrian tribes closest association is firstly with the Pannonians, then the Italians of the Adriatic sea area from late bronze-age .................that is it ..............the came from the north and went south in the western Balkans over time..........................finally destroyed by the Romans in the Great-Illyrian revolt and most where dispersed in the Roman empire from Iberia to Britain and to Gaul

 

[TetaEglantina]

It is amazing that after all these years people cannot come to terms with the fact that illyrian is not one tribal group , the term illyrian is like the term British................there will never be a illyrian language found
The Illyrian tribes closest association is firstly with the Pannonians, then the Italians of the Adriatic sea area from late bronze-age .................that is it ..............the came from the north and went south in the western Balkans over time..........................finally destroyed by the Romans in the Great-Illyrian revolt and most where dispersed in the Roman empire from Iberia to Britain and to Gaul

Ancient DNA is telling us otherwise so far with them being 95% j2b l283. As for getting destroyed by the Romans, that is clear. It looks like the Romans did more damage to illyrians than the Slavs did later on

 

[Polska]

Very interesting last point. I wonder what that would mean as far as culture is concerned.
Maybe new findings in the regions are what pushed Patterson and Lazaridis to back IE older than Yamnaya and IE in the .

It looks like both NEO281 and KK1 can be modeled as approximately 80% Progress CHG. Exhibit A:

At the same time, I’ve seen some people produce models that show anywhere from 15% to 30% Meshoko ancestry contained within Progress. Even Davidski acknowledges now that this is the case over at his Eurogenes blog. That‘s why I think the Neolithic similarity map that was made by Ph2ter at GenArchivist is so interesting. It shows NEO281, a Mesolithic J2b2 sample, is most similar to the Darkveti Meshoko culture and pre Maykop people found centered there in Sochi and Adler, Russia area. These locations connect with Nal’chik to the north where the KDC001 (Nal’chik) J2b L283 sample was found. Exhibit B:

But NEO281 is actually from Kotias Klde near Imereti, Georgia. This is southeast of Sochi. So it looks to me like some J2b2 lineages moved northwest from the Imereti area up the east coast of the Black Sea via Meshoko (agro pastoralists ) and either through the mountain gorges or around the western most tip of the Caucasus into Ciscaucasia and the steppe. Even the shaded area in Ph2ter’s map wraps around the northern portion of the Black Sea extending as far west as the mouth of the Danube, but not nearly to the same extent along the southern Black Sea coast.

Finally, here is Nick Patterson’s comment on CopperAxe’s blog Musaeum Scythia from nearly 2 years ago that I think is interesting in light of the recent NEO281 sample that shows somewhat elevated Iran N ancestry relative to KK1. Exhibit C:

 

[Archetype0ne]

Crossing from the NW Caucasus to the Balkans through the Black Sea on boat during the Neolithic/Chalcolithic is far from impossible as well. Over time you could even reach all the way to the Adriatic coast and beyond just hugging the shoreline.

The biggest issue for the earliest settlements on the shore of the black sea is that they are underwater due to rising sea levels from melting glaciers as well as the black sea deluge (it used to be a lake).

It looks like both NEO281 and KK1 can be modeled as approximately 80% Progress CHG. Exhibit A:

View attachment 14559

At the same time, I’ve seen some people produce models that show anywhere from 15% to 30% Meshoko ancestry contained within Progress. Even Davidski acknowledges now that this is the case over at his Eurogenes blog. That‘s why I think the Neolithic similarity map that was made by Ph2ter at GenArchivist is so interesting. It shows NEO281, a Mesolithic J2b2 sample, is most similar to the Darkveti Meshoko culture and pre Maykop people found centered there in Sochi and Adler, Russia area. These locations connect with Nal’chik to the north where the KDC001 (Nal’chik) J2b L283 sample was found. Exhibit B:

View attachment 14560

But NEO281 is actually from Kotias Klde near Imereti, Georgia. This is southeast of Sochi. So it looks to me like some J2b2 lineages moved northwest from the Imereti area up the east coast of the Black Sea via Meshoko (agro pastoralists ) and either through the mountain gorges or around the western most tip of the Caucasus into Ciscaucasia and the steppe. Even the shaded area in Ph2ter’s map wraps around the northern portion of the Black Sea extending as far west as the mouth of the Danube, but not nearly to the same extent along the southern Black Sea coast.

Finally, here is Nick Patterson’s comment on CopperAxe’s blog Musaeum Scythia from nearly 2 years ago that I think is interesting in light of the recent NEO281 sample that shows somewhat elevated Iran N ancestry relative to KK1. Exhibit C:

View attachment 14561

I for one welcome this new paper on 4th and 5th millennium. Think we might get most of the answers to our questions.

 

[Viramund]

I think its confusing to model mesolithic CHGs as deriving ancestry from progress , a eneolithic individual. In actuality Progress was around 3/4 CHG and 1/4 EHG. Anyway I agree with Polska that J2b might have been a part of this same migration wave into the area.
Interesting video abou this sample:

His y dna seem to have somewhat similar distribution to upstream J2b2 subclades
Compare:

R-V1636 YTree

www.yfull.com

J-Z593 YTree

www.yfull.com

 

[Galaxy Overlord]

The M _ _ _ _ _ _ sample shows somewhat more EEF+UKR_N and a little less Progress when compared with Yamnaya, Also no recent Caucasus ancestry.

 

[Viramund]

The M _ _ _ _ _ _ sample shows somewhat more EEF+UKR_N and a little less Progress when compared with Yamnaya, Also no recent Caucasus ancestry.

Progress is ancestral to Sredny Stog itself (proto indo european) more than likely.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

In the Hungarian leaks from three years ago there is a graph with samples from Slovenia that belong to Ljubjanska culure. They are all R-Z2103 and very low on steppe(15-20% steppe), which means they most likely stem from from Vucedol R-Z2103 which was already on the low end for steppe when compared to other steppe groups nearby. So there is the paradox of J2b-L283 showing up later in the Adriatic with far more steppe, which pretty much rules out a nativist theory for J2b-L283, it would take a lot gymnastics to make it work.

The more direct theory, is that it came with the proper Yamnaya wave as minor, lower status haplogroup. It will not show up in Hungary because the most steppe-like environment was claimed by the leaders of Yamnaya(R-Z2103) and J2b-L283 would have settled at the the edges of the Yamnaya wedge, like Northern Serbia. It is too bad we do not have early EBA samples from Serbia and adjacent regions.

 

[Galaxy Overlord]

Here is all of the J2b-L283 samples from the "A genetic history of the Balkans from Roman frontier to Slavic migrations" paper (https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(23)01135-2):

I15546
Grave No. 26
380-410 CE
Serbia_Timacum
Slog Ravna village (Timacum Minus), Slog Necropolis
L2a1+143+16189 (16192)
J-Z597 J2b,J-M102,J-Z534,J-Z1825,J-Z593,J-M241,J-L283,J-Z622,J-Z600,J-Z585,J-Z615,J-Z597
J2b2a1a1a~

I15547
Grave No. 27A
380-410 CE
Serbia_Timacum
Slog Ravna village (Timacum Minus), Slog Necropolis
H+152
J-L283 J2b,J-M102,J-Z534,J-Z1825,J-Z593,J-M241,J-L283
J2b2a1

I15548
Grave No. 28
380-410 CE
Serbia_Timacum
Slog Ravna village (Timacum Minus), Slog Necropolis
W+194
J-Z1043 J2b,J-M102,J-Z534,J-Z1825,J-Z593,J-M241,J-L283,J-Z622,J-Z600,J-Z585,J-Z615,J-Z597,J-Z2507,J-Z638,J-Z1297,J-Z1295,J-Z8421,J-Z631,J-Z1043
J2b2a1a1a1a1a1a1~

I26752 (new sample)
G 17
200-300 CE
Croatia_Osijek
Ban Jelačić Square, Osijek
K1b1a1a
J-Y23094 J2b,J-M102,J-Z534,J-Z1825,J-Z593,J-M241,J-L283,J-Z622,J-Z600,J-Z585,J-Z615,J-Z597,J-Z2507,J-Z638,J-Z1297,J-Y27522,J-Y23094
J2b2a1a1a1a1a2a~

I28397 (new sample)
Grave 139
700-900 CE
Croatia_Nustar Dvorac, Nuštar
J1c1b1a
J-Z1043 J2b,J-M102,J-Z534,J-Z1825,J-Z593,J-M241,J-L283,J-Z622,J-Z600,J-Z585,J-Z615,J-Z597,J-Z2507,J-Z638,J-Z1297,J-Z1295,J-Z8421,J-Z631,J-Z1043
J2b2a1a1a1a1a1a1~

I34800 (new sample)
Grave 50-A
700-900 CE
Croatia_Nustar Dvorac, Nuštar
H16
J-Z1043 J2b,J-M102,J-Z534,J-Z1825,J-Z593,J-M241,J-L283,J-Z622,J-Z600,J-Z585,J-Z615,J-Z597,J-Z2507,J-Z638,J-Z1297,J-Z1295,J-Z8421,J-Z631,J-Z1043
J2b2a1a1a1a1a1a

 

[Polska]

In the Hungarian leaks from three years ago there is a graph with samples from Slovenia that belong to Ljubjanska culure. They are all R-Z2103 and very low on steppe(15-20% steppe), which means they most likely stem from from Vucedol R-Z2103 which was already on the low end for steppe when compared to other steppe groups nearby. So there is the paradox of J2b-L283 showing up later in the Adriatic with far more steppe, which pretty much rules out a nativist theory for J2b-L283, it would take a lot gymnastics to make it work.

The more direct theory, is that it came with the proper Yamnaya wave as minor, lower status haplogroup. It will not show up in Hungary because the most steppe-like environment was claimed by the leaders of Yamnaya(R-Z2103) and J2b-L283 would have settled at the the edges of the Yamnaya wedge, like Northern Serbia. It is too bad we do not have early EBA samples from Serbia and adjacent regions.

I remember user “Asburg” (spelling?), or “Huban” mentioning these samples as well. He had indicated there was another J2b L283 dated to about 2000 BCE from this paper. I believe the sample, based on what he claimed, came from Szeged, Hungary. This is not too far from Mokrin, Serbia…a little ways north.

It’s hard for me to discern between some of the colors they chose to use for the dots, but it almost looks like there could be an L283 sample hiding out at the bottom of the circled R1a samples, partially overlapped by an orange dot. Hard to tell.

 

[Viramund]

Here is all of the J2b-L283 samples from the "A genetic history of the Balkans from Roman frontier to Slavic migrations" paper (https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(23)01135-2):

I15546
Grave No. 26
380-410 CE
Serbia_Timacum
Slog Ravna village (Timacum Minus), Slog Necropolis
L2a1+143+16189 (16192)
J-Z597 J2b,J-M102,J-Z534,J-Z1825,J-Z593,J-M241,J-L283,J-Z622,J-Z600,J-Z585,J-Z615,J-Z597
J2b2a1a1a~

I15547
Grave No. 27A
380-410 CE
Serbia_Timacum
Slog Ravna village (Timacum Minus), Slog Necropolis
H+152
J-L283 J2b,J-M102,J-Z534,J-Z1825,J-Z593,J-M241,J-L283
J2b2a1

I15548
Grave No. 28
380-410 CE
Serbia_Timacum
Slog Ravna village (Timacum Minus), Slog Necropolis
W+194
J-Z1043 J2b,J-M102,J-Z534,J-Z1825,J-Z593,J-M241,J-L283,J-Z622,J-Z600,J-Z585,J-Z615,J-Z597,J-Z2507,J-Z638,J-Z1297,J-Z1295,J-Z8421,J-Z631,J-Z1043
J2b2a1a1a1a1a1a1~

I26752 (new sample)
G 17
200-300 CE
Croatia_Osijek
Ban Jelačić Square, Osijek
K1b1a1a
J-Y23094 J2b,J-M102,J-Z534,J-Z1825,J-Z593,J-M241,J-L283,J-Z622,J-Z600,J-Z585,J-Z615,J-Z597,J-Z2507,J-Z638,J-Z1297,J-Y27522,J-Y23094
J2b2a1a1a1a1a2a~

I28397 (new sample)
Grave 139
700-900 CE
Croatia_Nustar Dvorac, Nuštar
J1c1b1a
J-Z1043 J2b,J-M102,J-Z534,J-Z1825,J-Z593,J-M241,J-L283,J-Z622,J-Z600,J-Z585,J-Z615,J-Z597,J-Z2507,J-Z638,J-Z1297,J-Z1295,J-Z8421,J-Z631,J-Z1043
J2b2a1a1a1a1a1a1~

I34800 (new sample)
Grave 50-A
700-900 CE
Croatia_Nustar Dvorac, Nuštar
H16
J-Z1043 J2b,J-M102,J-Z534,J-Z1825,J-Z593,J-M241,J-L283,J-Z622,J-Z600,J-Z585,J-Z615,J-Z597,J-Z2507,J-Z638,J-Z1297,J-Z1295,J-Z8421,J-Z631,J-Z1043
J2b2a1a1a1a1a1a

With autossomal profile:
ALREADY KNOWN SAMPLES:
1º
I15546
J2b-Z597
L2a1
Serbia_TimacumSlog
380-410 CE
CHG-19%; EHG-15%; WHG-4%; Levant_Neo-3%; ANF-60%Balkans IA cluster

2º
I15547
J-L283
H
Serbia_TimacumSlog
380-410 CE
CHG-27%; EHG-1%; WHG-18%; Levant_Neo-6%;ANF-47%
Balkans IA cluster

3º
I15548
J2b-Z1043
W
Serbia_TimacumSlog
380-410 CE
Balkans IA cluster

NEW ONES:

4º
I26752
J2b-Y23094
K1b1a1a
Ban Jelačić Square, Osijek, Croatia
200-300 CE
CHG-22%; EHG-23%;WHG-8%,Levant_Neo-1%;ANF-46%

5º
I28397
J2b-Z1043
J1c1b1a
Dvorac, Nuštar,Croatia
700-900 CE
CHG-27%; EHG-18%; WHG-10%;Levant_Neo-7%; ANF-39%

6º
I34800
J2b-Z1043
H16
Dvorac, Nuštar,Croatia
Juvenile; 10-12
Nustar Family (2 members) (I34800 is the son of I28390)
700-900 CE
CHG-28%; EHG-20%;WHG-12%;ANF-40%

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I remember user “Asburg” (spelling?), or “Huban” mentioning these samples as well. He had indicated there was another J2b L283 dated to about 2000 BCE from this paper. I believe the sample, based on what he claimed, came from Szeged, Hungary. This is not too far from Mokrin, Serbia…a little ways north.

It’s hard for me to discern between some of the colors they chose to use for the dots, but it almost looks like there could be an L283 sample hiding out at the bottom of the circled R1a samples, partially overlapped by an orange dot. Hard to tell.

He posted this in the Serbian forum recently. I think however that J2b is the youngest sample of them all in the graph, around 600 BC, the resolution is weak but the color has good match.

 

[Viramund]

Here is all of the J2b-L283 samples from the "A genetic history of the Balkans from Roman frontier to Slavic migrations" paper (https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(23)01135-2):

I15546
Grave No. 26
380-410 CE
Serbia_Timacum
Slog Ravna village (Timacum Minus), Slog Necropolis
L2a1+143+16189 (16192)
J-Z597 J2b,J-M102,J-Z534,J-Z1825,J-Z593,J-M241,J-L283,J-Z622,J-Z600,J-Z585,J-Z615,J-Z597
J2b2a1a1a~

I15547
Grave No. 27A
380-410 CE
Serbia_Timacum
Slog Ravna village (Timacum Minus), Slog Necropolis
H+152
J-L283 J2b,J-M102,J-Z534,J-Z1825,J-Z593,J-M241,J-L283
J2b2a1

I15548
Grave No. 28
380-410 CE
Serbia_Timacum
Slog Ravna village (Timacum Minus), Slog Necropolis
W+194
J-Z1043 J2b,J-M102,J-Z534,J-Z1825,J-Z593,J-M241,J-L283,J-Z622,J-Z600,J-Z585,J-Z615,J-Z597,J-Z2507,J-Z638,J-Z1297,J-Z1295,J-Z8421,J-Z631,J-Z1043
J2b2a1a1a1a1a1a1~

I26752 (new sample)
G 17
200-300 CE
Croatia_Osijek
Ban Jelačić Square, Osijek
K1b1a1a
J-Y23094 J2b,J-M102,J-Z534,J-Z1825,J-Z593,J-M241,J-L283,J-Z622,J-Z600,J-Z585,J-Z615,J-Z597,J-Z2507,J-Z638,J-Z1297,J-Y27522,J-Y23094
J2b2a1a1a1a1a2a~

I28397 (new sample)
Grave 139
700-900 CE
Croatia_Nustar Dvorac, Nuštar
J1c1b1a
J-Z1043 J2b,J-M102,J-Z534,J-Z1825,J-Z593,J-M241,J-L283,J-Z622,J-Z600,J-Z585,J-Z615,J-Z597,J-Z2507,J-Z638,J-Z1297,J-Z1295,J-Z8421,J-Z631,J-Z1043
J2b2a1a1a1a1a1a1~

I34800 (new sample)
Grave 50-A
700-900 CE
Croatia_Nustar Dvorac, Nuštar
H16
J-Z1043 J2b,J-M102,J-Z534,J-Z1825,J-Z593,J-M241,J-L283,J-Z622,J-Z600,J-Z585,J-Z615,J-Z597,J-Z2507,J-Z638,J-Z1297,J-Z1295,J-Z8421,J-Z631,J-Z1043
J2b2a1a1a1a1a1a

Intersting that one of them have mtdna L2.

 

[Polska]

He posted this in the Serbian forum recently. I think however that J2b is the youngest sample of them all in the graph, around 600 BC, the resolution is weak but the color has good match.

I think these 2 slides from the same study might hint at an additional J2b L283 Maros sample, perhaps western Yamnaya derived based on what Huban mentioned about the autosomal composition:

Far right column above = Bronze Age samples with one J2b L283 (Approx 2100 BCE, assuming Maros). White stripe = J2b L283.

Here is Maros on the list above <eastern Hungary>.

 

[Hawk]

This thread title is downright offensive. Anything other than R1b and R1a is not Indo-European period.
Proto-Illyrians much like Proto-Hellenes were R1b and that is it. They were not J2b. J2b carriers came to the Balkans at least 5-6 centuries after the R1b Illyrians.
There is a reason why you dont find much E-V13 and J carriers in Western Europe.
J2b being pre-Illyrian(or pre-Hellene) is also laughable as well. J2b is post-Illyrian/Hellene because they came after Yamnaya invasion.



Oh the irony posting articles which quote/reference David Reich who is full of shit.
In fact all of anthropology and genetic studies are contaminated by this propagandist and his partner-in-crime Iosif Lazaridis.

Stop LARPing you assholes.
Us REAL Illyrians/Albanians are in very few numbers by now and are basically an endangered species at this point.

Just to make it clear and obvious, this account is not Albanian, likely some Serbian-Bosnian Borat (Hubanoids) trying to spice up the thread.

 

[Archetype0ne]

I had to register another account because I forgot the password of the previous one



Merrma ne goje o magjup.
You are not Illyrian so stop pretending. You are exactly those Borats you are talking about.
Only R1b is Illyrian so stop LARPing. You are E-V13, descendant of Nafri Farmers. J2bs are Semitic/Semitic-ish. Why do none of the dominant J countries speak Indo-European languages? Because they are not Indo-European. So enough of your goblin pilpul and somebody delete this disgraceful thread already or at least edit Proto-Illyrian out of the title because clearly haplogroup J or any of its descendants has nothing to do with Illyrians or any Indo-European culture for that matter.

You are not only confused, but down right disrespectful.
Go read a study or two, then give proper debating another shot. Maybe reading can help you organize your thoughts a little better, and who knows maybe come up with a coherent argument.

 

[aryaniti]

It is amazing that after all these years people cannot come to terms with the fact that illyrian is not one tribal group , the term illyrian is like the term British................there will never be a illyrian language found
The Illyrian tribes closest association is firstly with the Pannonians, then the Italians of the Adriatic sea area from late bronze-age .................that is it ..............the came from the north and went south in the western Balkans over time..........................finally destroyed by the Romans in the Great-Illyrian revolt and most where dispersed in the Roman empire from Iberia to Britain and to Gaul

Enough of your goblinoid pilpul.
Illyrians were Indo-Europeans(R1b) and spoke an IE language. Considering they lived on the same Albanian lands its obvious that Albanian is decended from Illyrian.
E-V13 were EEFs and J2s came much later so anybody claiming they were descendants of IE Steppe Herders is delusional.

 

[mount123]

Just to make it clear and obvious, this account is not Albanian, likely some Serbian-Bosnian Borat (Hubanoids) trying to spice up the thread.

He is the person who opened in a single week 20 sock puppet accounts if you remember. Each time he opens a new one he says he forgot his password. He clearly suffers from some form of mental illness.

 

[Hawk]

Merrma ne goje o magjup.
You are not Illyrian so stop pretending. You are exactly those Borats you are talking about.
Only R1b is Illyrian so stop LARPing. You are E-V13, descendant of Nafri Farmers. J2bs are Semitic/Semitic-ish. Why do none of the dominant J countries speak Indo-European languages? Because they are not Indo-European. So enough of your goblin pilpul and somebody delete this disgraceful thread already or at least edit Proto-Illyrian out of the title because clearly haplogroup J or any of its descendants has nothing to do with Illyrians or any Indo-European culture for that matter.

Ah me bo met kap ti njeher, more bythmindil, me ta kalb ftyren ne grushta ishte kon mir. Nime i thu ti dikuj magjup.

I am not pretending to be Illyrian because i am not, i don't give 2 cents, we E-V13 Albanians are Dacian/Thracian and we are conform with that.

If E-V13 is a Nafram Farmer and J2b-L283 is a Semitic Middle Easterner then you are Mongol. Let's go even deeper in humanity and declare ourselves Silverback Gorillas. Now, let's not pollute this thread, and stop larping like a mad terrier dog.

 

[Hawk]

He is the person who opened in a single week 20 sock puppet accounts if you remember. Each time he opens a new one he says he forgot his password. He clearly suffers from some form of mental illness.

For a split second i thought he is what i claimed, but thinking of which, you might be right, someone with mental illness whose ego got hurt and acting butthurt all over in a thread.

Don't agree, create a thread, or write a post with point, larping like a chihuaha dog doesn't intimidate anyone.