Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

Well yes apart from the Goth Gaul and Latin mixes they might have

The non-Slav parts of South Slavs are from the balkans.

I think the moment that someone begins with revisionist theories denying the Slavic migrations they should be banned from any respectable forum.
 
Can we say that serbian language was spoken in Balcans from antiquity?
Cyrillic is the alphabet

Croats and Bosnians speak it but their suffix on words are different.
 
The non-Slav parts of South Slavs are from the balkans.

I think the moment that someone begins with revisionist theories denying the Slavic migrations they should be banned from any respectable forum.
I have never denied Slavic migrations South Slavs are still Slavs.
 
Megalithic is a time period where some South Slavs left and populated the Balkans this is what I said exactly.

You are completely delusional.

We are no longer in a time when people could just post absurd, idiotic speculations they pulled out of a hat.

Are you aware we have ancient dna now?

If you have proof of "Slavic" dna in the Chalcolithic Balkans, present it. Otherwise, be quiet.

Can the rest of you just ignore this poster? Reasonable people can disagree when looking at the same facts, but what is to be gained from debating with someone ignorant of even the basics of genetics, linguistics, you name it?
 
You are completely delusional.

We are no longer in a time when people could just post absurd, idiotic speculations they pulled out of a hat.

Are you aware we have ancient dna now?

If you have proof of "Slavic" dna in the Chalcolithic Balkans, present it. Otherwise, be quiet.

Can the rest of you just ignore this poster? Reasonable people can disagree when looking at the same facts, but what is to be gained from debating with someone ignorant of even the basics of genetics, linguistics, you name it?

According to the mindset of the Serbians who share ignorant, obsolete views on Albanians:

We Albanians were supposedly brought with ships from Arabia->Sicily->Albania and mixed with the "native megalithic Slavs" and Greeks of Albania. <----This is according to their twisted historical view they present in every forum related to anthropology and DNA.

The Serbian wikipedia also states the same thing.
Google translate helps deciphering the Slavic Megalithic Cyrillic Hieroglyphs:

https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Албанци
 
It's not the Illyrian argument because Messapian isn't Illyrian. It would be like Poles claiming to be Goths.

So you and the Austrian authors claim that Albanian is not a descendant of Illyria and is linked to Messapian. Okay. But then where does Albanian come from linguistically, which is the ancient linguistic group it derives from or is most closely related to? Some alternative scenario should be proposed, not just denying the Illyrian links.

I have read a pretty sensible (to me) text about other possibilities for the origin of Albanian, and its basic point is that the very Albanian-like substrate in Romanian, the heavy Latin and more specifically Eastern Proto-Romance and many other linguistic and historical factors could indicate that the ancestor of Albanian was spoken in Moesia or somewhere near it in more lowland areas, in present-day Southern Serbia, in close contact with Romanized people before the Slavic and other migrations pressured people out onto the mountainous areas. But then the question would be what Moesian was like, whether it was Daco-Thracian or Illyrian or maybe a separate buffer branch between them.

I actually doubt very much that the entire Balkans had only four native languages during the Roman Empire: Thracian, Dacian, Illyrian and Greek. We should not trust ancient authors to be linguists or even people very interested in the correct linguistic affiliation of foreigners, particularly those they saw as barbarians. People lump together all ethnicities whose language and culture seem broadly similar even today, to the point they make gross mistakes like calling Turks and Iranians "Arabs". I doubt that was not the case in Antiquity.

So in my opinion one should be a bit careful to dismiss any links with Illyrian or with any of the other main linguistic groups identified by the ancient historiography. Those may have been generic terms to make things simpler, roughly like "the Slavs" even if they speak different Slavic languages.

So in my opinion noticeable differences between Albanian and Illyrian, countered by some apparent cognates, may simply indicate that it was actually a branch of related languages, not one common language. Or it could be, as there are also in my opinion plausible evidences to support this, a Central Balkanic language with unknown affiliations, but possibly related to Thracian or Dacian (but then the links with Messapian in South Italy on the other side of the Adriatic would become a bit more challenging to explain).
 
I have read a pretty sensible (to me) text about other possibilities for the origin of Albanian, and its basic point is that the very Albanian-like substrate in Romanian, the heavy Latin and more specifically Eastern Proto-Romance and many other linguistic and historical factors could indicate that the ancestor of Albanian was spoken in Moesia or somewhere near it in more lowland areas, in present-day Southern Serbia, in close contact with Romanized people before the Slavic and other migrations pressured people out onto the mountainous areas. But then the question would be what Moesian was like, whether it was Daco-Thracian or Illyrian or maybe a separate buffer branch between them.

I think there has also not been enough work into the "Dalmatian" language. There is comparatively much more research into the Romanian Albanian pre-Latin substrate. Yet i still have not seen similar Dalmatian - Albanian substrates investigated. This is obviously made harder by the fact that it's now extinct and the Dalmatian speakers were absorbed by Croatians. But my suspicions are that the pre-Latin substrate would have been in the Albanoid continuum just like the Romanian substrate.

Also, this comparative lack of material to work with on the Dalmatian side can shift analysis of Albanian more "east" if we only have Romanian references to work with.

DErjvTA.png




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language
 
So you and the Austrian authors claim that Albanian is not a descendant of Illyria and is linked to Messapian. Okay. But then where does Albanian come from linguistically, which is the ancient linguistic group it derives from or is most closely related to? Some alternative scenario should be proposed, not just denying the Illyrian links.

I have read a pretty sensible (to me) text about other possibilities for the origin of Albanian, and its basic point is that the very Albanian-like substrate in Romanian, the heavy Latin and more specifically Eastern Proto-Romance and many other linguistic and historical factors could indicate that the ancestor of Albanian was spoken in Moesia or somewhere near it in more lowland areas, in present-day Southern Serbia, in close contact with Romanized people before the Slavic and other migrations pressured people out onto the mountainous areas. But then the question would be what Moesian was like, whether it was Daco-Thracian or Illyrian or maybe a separate buffer branch between them.

I actually doubt very much that the entire Balkans had only four native languages during the Roman Empire: Thracian, Dacian, Illyrian and Greek. We should not trust ancient authors to be linguists or even people very interested in the correct linguistic affiliation of foreigners, particularly those they saw as barbarians. People lump together all ethnicities whose language and culture seem broadly similar even today, to the point they make gross mistakes like calling Turks and Iranians "Arabs". I doubt that was not the case in Antiquity.

So in my opinion one should be a bit careful to dismiss any links with Illyrian or with any of the other main linguistic groups identified by the ancient historiography. Those may have been generic terms to make things simpler, roughly like "the Slavs" even if they speak different Slavic languages.

So in my opinion noticeable differences between Albanian and Illyrian, countered by some apparent cognates, may simply indicate that it was actually a branch of related languages, not one common language. Or it could be, as there are also in my opinion plausible evidences to support this, a Central Balkanic language with unknown affiliations, but possibly related to Thracian or Dacian (but then the links with Messapian in South Italy on the other side of the Adriatic would become a bit more challenging to explain).

If Albanian was spoken in Moesia how did Albanian get 7% of its vocabulary from Doric Greek?
 
If Albanian was spoken in Moesia how did Albanian get 7% of its vocabulary from Doric Greek?

Very simple. Albanian was spoken in Moesia, but it was also spoken in Epirus and Macedonia.

"The presence of ancient West Greek loans in Albanian implies that in classical antiquity the precursors of the Albanians were a Balkan tribe to the north and west of the Greeks. Such people would probably have been 'Illyrians' to classical writers. This conclusion is neither very surprising nor very enlightening since the ethnographic terminology of most classical authors is not very precise. An Illyrian label does little to solve the complex problems of the origins of the Albanian language.

The Makedonian nature of these loans is supported by the geographical distribution Of classical place-names that show the same effects of the Albanian accent rule:
8) Niš (Alb Nish) < ad Naissum, Ναϊσσός,
9) Rusc (in Bogdan, modern *Rush, present-day Dubrovnik) <
ad Rugúsās,
10) Štip (Alb Shtip) < "Aotlßov and
11) Vloré (Gheg Vloné) < Αυλώνα.

These place-names leave little doubt that the Albanian accent rules were observed over Macedonia, Epirus and Upper Moesia.

It is very probable that at least one of the non-Greek languages of ancient Makedonia was either the ancestor of Albanian or its very near relative. "

from Accentual Stratification of Ancient Greek Loanwords in Albanian by Martin Huld
 
If Albanian was spoken in Moesia how did Albanian get 7% of its vocabulary from Doric Greek?
There are some recent studies that considers the Moesi as Illyrians, not Thracians.
But this does not necessarily means that Albanians are descendants of Moesi.
 
Would be really curious to see autosomal DNA testing of more ex-Yugos people.
Think currently data is quite sparse.
 
So you and the Austrian authors claim that Albanian is not a descendant of Illyria and is linked to Messapian. Okay. But then where does Albanian come from linguistically, which is the ancient linguistic group it derives from or is most closely related to? Some alternative scenario should be proposed, not just denying the Illyrian links.

I have read a pretty sensible (to me) text about other possibilities for the origin of Albanian, and its basic point is that the very Albanian-like substrate in Romanian, the heavy Latin and more specifically Eastern Proto-Romance and many other linguistic and historical factors could indicate that the ancestor of Albanian was spoken in Moesia or somewhere near it in more lowland areas, in present-day Southern Serbia, in close contact with Romanized people before the Slavic and other migrations pressured people out onto the mountainous areas. But then the question would be what Moesian was like, whether it was Daco-Thracian or Illyrian or maybe a separate buffer branch between them.

I actually doubt very much that the entire Balkans had only four native languages during the Roman Empire: Thracian, Dacian, Illyrian and Greek. We should not trust ancient authors to be linguists or even people very interested in the correct linguistic affiliation of foreigners, particularly those they saw as barbarians. People lump together all ethnicities whose language and culture seem broadly similar even today, to the point they make gross mistakes like calling Turks and Iranians "Arabs". I doubt that was not the case in Antiquity.

So in my opinion one should be a bit careful to dismiss any links with Illyrian or with any of the other main linguistic groups identified by the ancient historiography. Those may have been generic terms to make things simpler, roughly like "the Slavs" even if they speak different Slavic languages.

So in my opinion noticeable differences between Albanian and Illyrian, countered by some apparent cognates, may simply indicate that it was actually a branch of related languages, not one common language. Or it could be, as there are also in my opinion plausible evidences to support this, a Central Balkanic language with unknown affiliations, but possibly related to Thracian or Dacian (but then the links with Messapian in South Italy on the other side of the Adriatic would become a bit more challenging to explain).

Vladimir Orel places Albanian around the southern Carpathians, much in agreement with the Austrian scholars.
 
I’ll be free to use data provided by @Jajar Bingan, as they seem to be in accordance with some academic papers. To do some comparisons I created two South Slavic groups based on majority of percentages of certain genetic components and tried to check how they relate to other groupings (historical, cultural, and linguistic).

Group A: less Thracian+Greek then Slavic

Slovenian 30% 70%
Croatian 35% 65%
Bosnian 45% 55%

Group B: more Thracian+Greek then Slavic

Montenegrin 60% 40%
Serbian 60% 40%
Macedonian 65% 35%
Bulgarian 70% 30%

---------------------

Roman provinces:
- Dalmatia, Panonnia, Noricum: Group A
- Moesia, Thrace, Macedonia : Group B
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Illyricum_&_Dacia_-_AD_400.png

Roman empire:
- Western: Group A
- Eastern: Group B
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Theodosius_I's_empire.png

Ostrogoth Kingdom (6th century):
- Yes: Group A
- No: Group B
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Europa_in_526.png

9th century:
- Charlemagne: Group A
- Bulgaria, Byzantine: Group B
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Francia_814.svg

The Great Schism (1054):
- Western Christian: Group A (+ partly Montenegrin)
- Eastern Christian: Group B
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Expansion_of_christianity.jpg

Hungarian-Croatian personal union (12-15th century) and Austria:
- Yes: Group A
- No: Group B
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia_in_union_with_Hungary#/media/File:Zadar_Treaty_1358.png

Balkan Language Area:
- No: Group A (+ Serbian as of 19th century)
- Yes: Group B
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_sprachbund

South Slavic Languages:
- Western branch: Group A (+ Serbian as of 19th century, Montenegrin)
- Eastern branch: Group B
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_languages#Dialectal_classification

------------

All presented above is not an explanation of any kind, just a material for thinking. Some of the presented relations will show up as more relevant, some perhaps wil be regarded as a coincidence.
 
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