Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

[markod]

You are using Matzinger to argue messapic comes from south italy? He clearly syas messapic is a balkanic language. Some balkna ethnos migrating accros the adriatic sea and through Illyrian territory without ever being mentioned? Lol man they are illyrians.

This quote is a bit outdated but it points to Dardanians:


"Again, the Galabri, writes Strabo, are a people of the Dardaniatae, in whose land is an ancient city.’’ "Word for word, Galabri is Calabri.

"Without being identical, the name of the Italian lapyges (which was to all intents and purposes another name for Calabri) is closely akin to lapodes ; so that, in Italy, we have Calabri called also lapyges, and, in Illyria, lapodes near a population called Galabri."

Pg 34
TRIBES AND RACES
A DESCRIPTIVE ETHNOLOGY OF ASIA, AFRICA & EUROPE
Robert G. Latham

I don't, but Hrvat22 keeps repeating that for some reason. I believe Messapian came from the Balkans.

 

[Lenab]

Find a thread about Albanians and elaborate better what you want to say with this your post.

I am just going by GED results

All the conversations I have had with Albanians are non confrontational by their results have proved they are mixed with the countries they have settled in. I cannot post conversations but I can post videos of Albanians in South Italy for example that Bachus sent to me.

Other than that there must be videos about Albanians in Greece with Greek ancestors on YT I guess I could do that. I can also speak to this guy from Kosovo with Serbian genetics, but I cannot post his profile here but I can print out his results to you in private if you so wish to see.

 

[hrvat22]

Then keep on topic and define what a Slavic is we should all stick to this subject. For you and other users here what is a Slav? Is it language or physical appearance based? Is it haplogroup, historical or culture based or all of the above?

I can speak for Croats, they are connected with I2a and R1a subclades old about 2000 years with source in White Croatia. From there they come to the Roman Dalmatia very likely in the 7th century and perhaps earlier. After arrival they split and became these or that but genetically they are all originally of White Croatian origin.

Language or physical appearance has nothing to do with origin of anyone originally but in the formation of modern nations peoples are identified with faith, language, folk customs, names, surnames etc and then conclud their origin on that basis normally there are state missionaries who teach them who they are. But as I said it has nothing to do with originally origin of group, tribe or peoples.

 

[Lenab]

I can speak for Croats, they are connected with I2a and R1a subclades old about 2000 years with source in White Croatia. From there they come to the Roman Dalmatia very likely in the 7th century and perhaps earlier. After arrival they split and became these or that but genetically they are all originally of White Croatian origin.

Language or physical appearance has nothing to do with origin of anyone originally but in the formation of modern nations peoples are identified with faith, language, folk customs, names, surnames etc and then conclud their origin on that basis normally there are state missionaries who teach them who they are. But as I said it has nothing to do with originally origin of group, tribe or peoples.

Physically is just a outline not totally irreverent either but I agree it can be very baseless, especially when you take into account genes and how recessive or dominant they can be.

What about alphabets then? Interesting how Croatian alphabet can be Latin based as well as Cyrillic yet Hungarians for example use a different alphabet all together.

Also, a lot of Slavic migration to the Balkan came during Megalithic all the Is and Rs make sense

 

[hrvat22]

If you don't care about linguistics just don't respond to posts about linguistics perhaps?

With whom language comes? With the wind?

If you are talking about southern Italy then take genetics and prove connection between Illyrian language and that language in the southern Italy.

Croatians from White Croatia bring Slavic language, and this is confirmed by genetics. No one from Croatia and Dalmatia carries Croatian language to White Croatia.


How can I claim that Croats bring Slavic language to White Croatia if genetics does not show it.

Why do you mention southern Italy then? There is no records of Illyrian language and we do not know whether this is the Albanian language or not, you know that this is not an Albanian language then prove it, you did not prove with anything.

 

[markod]

With whom language comes? With the wind?

If you are talking about southern Italy then take genetics and prove connection between Illyrian language and that language in the southern Italy.

Croatians from White Croatia bring Slavic language, and this is confirmed by genetics. No one from Croatia and Dalmatia carries Croatian language to White Croatia.


How can I claim that Croats bring Slavic language to White Croatia if genetics does not show it.

Why do you mention southern Italy then? There is no records of Illyrian language and we do not know whether this is the Albanian language or not, you know that this is not an Albanian language then prove it, you did not prove with anything.

Your grasp of population genetics doesn't seem to be very good either. Genetics tells us nothing about the origin of the Croats except that they are broadly Slavic.

 

[Johane Derite]

I believe Messapian came from the Balkans.

Good, so you believe that Albanians have been on the Adriatic since deep antiquity. This is effectively the Illyrian argument. Good to see you subscribe to it! Thracians or Dacians crossing the Adriatic to Apulia has absolutely no weight as an argument.

The DNA and linguistic evidence all points to it. Great to see you are actually on board (without even knowing it)

 

[hrvat22]

Physically is just a outline not totally irreverent either but I agree it can be very baseless, especially when you take into account genes and how recessive or dominant they can be.

What about alphabets then? Interesting how Croatian alphabet can be Latin based as well as Cyrillic yet Hungarians for example use a different alphabet all together.

Croats come as illiterate barbarians to Roman Dalmata, so in fact Latin or Cyrilic alphabet has nothing to do with Croatian origin but in later historical periods some parts of Balkans used Cyrilic some used Latin alphabet, part of Croats used and Glagolitic and Cyrilic alphabet.

Also, a lot of Slavic migration to the Balkan came during Megalithic

Genetics will say more about it in the future, for now Croatian branches of R1a have some matching in the south Poland but it is too early for concrete conclusions.

 

[hrvat22]

Your grasp of population genetics doesn't seem to be very good either. Genetics tells us nothing about the origin of the Croats except that they are broadly Slavic.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31539-Genetics-confirm-migration-of-White-Croats-to-Croatia

 

[Lenab]

Good, so you believe that Albanians have been on the Adriatic since deep antiquity. This is effectively the Illyrian argument. Good to see you subscribe to it! Thracians or Dacians crossing the Adriatic to Apulia has absolutely no weight as an argument.

The DNA and linguistic evidence all points to it. Great to see you are actually on board (without even knowing it)

Dalmatia is Illyriana is on the other side in Rome

 

[LABERIA]

I am just going by GED results

All the conversations I have had with Albanians are non confrontational by their results have proved they are mixed with the countries they have settled in. I cannot post conversations but I can post videos of Albanians in South Italy for example that Bachus sent to me.

Other than that there must be videos about Albanians in Greece with Greek ancestors on YT I guess I could do that. I can also speak to this guy from Kosovo with Serbian genetics, but I cannot post his profile here but I can print out his results to you in private if you so wish to see.

Thanks but i am interested on science not about gossips.

 

[Lenab]

Croats come as illiterate barbarians to Roman Dalmata, so in fact Latin or Cyrilic alphabet has nothing to do with Croatian origin but in later historical periods some parts of Balkans used Cyrilic some used Latin alphabet, part of Croats used and Glagolitic and Cyrilic alphabet.

Yes. Illiterate Barbarians? This is what they said about the Goths I have heard Bosnians try to claim that not Croatians though

Genetics will say more about it in the future, for now Croatian branches of R1a have some matching in the south Poland but it is too early for concrete conclusions.

R1a is East Germanic it is Baltid rather than Slavic, this is because East and West Slavs are mixed with Balts aka North East Europeans hence the East or rather, East North Europeans ( proper )

 

[Lenab]

Thanks but i am interested on science not about gossips.

The science is conclusive that only Albanians that inhabit Kosovo are somewhat Illyrian which means nothing anyway since Illyrians come from Rome anyway

 

[markod]

Good, so you believe that Albanians have been on the Adriatic since deep antiquity. This is effectively the Illyrian argument. Good to see you subscribe to it! Thracians or Dacians crossing the Adriatic to Apulia has absolutely no weight as an argument.

The DNA and linguistic evidence all points to it. Great to see you are actually on board (without even knowing it)

It's not the Illyrian argument because Messapian isn't Illyrian. It would be like Poles claiming to be Goths.

 

[markod]

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31539-Genetics-confirm-migration-of-White-Croats-to-Croatia

:useless: you'll have to come up with something better.

 

[hrvat22]

:useless: you'll have to come up with something better.

Everything is written here, black on white. No one refute this so it speaks for itself.

Pleasant reading!

 

[Milan.M]

You are using Matzinger to argue messapic comes from south italy? He clearly syas messapic is a balkanic language. Some balkna ethnos migrating accros the adriatic sea and through Illyrian territory without ever being mentioned? Lol man they are illyrians.

This quote is a bit outdated but it points to Dardanians:


"Again, the Galabri, writes Strabo, are a people of the Dardaniatae, in whose land is an ancient city.’’ "Word for word, Galabri is Calabri.

"Without being identical, the name of the Italian lapyges (which was to all intents and purposes another name for Calabri) is closely akin to lapodes ; so that, in Italy, we have Calabri called also lapyges, and, in Illyria, lapodes near a population called Galabri."

Pg 34
TRIBES AND RACES
A DESCRIPTIVE ETHNOLOGY OF ASIA, AFRICA & EUROPE
Robert G. Latham

If Calabria is "Dardanian" toponym it is likely Thracian origin,the ending "bria" was found in Thracian toponyms.
Messembria, Poltymbria, Sēlymbria, Skedabria, etc.
Dardanians some claim them Thracian some Illyrian or a "mix".
For example According to Strabo, the Dardani were not part of Illyria,and they were divided into two sub-groups, the Galabri and the Thunaki

I have nothing if Albanians will claim origin of some Illyrian tribe,Illyrians proper for example or Thracian whatever which should be proven first, but to claim origin from entire geographical region of Illyricum is non sense as noted by linguists couple of languages have been spoken there.

 

[Johane Derite]

It's not the Illyrian argument because Messapian isn't Illyrian. It would be like Poles claiming to be Goths.

But, Messapians are Illyrians...

Majority of Archeologists agree Messapians were Illyrian colonists. Your entire aim to find a proxy population that has all the qualities of Illyrians so that Albanians can descend from them without being Illyrians is hilarious. And the only way you are clinging to this non-argument is through Matzinger.

I've read Matzingers actual latest paper and he admits himself that the Illyrian material he is working with is almost non-existent and that of the material which they do actually have the most of (Messapian) Albanian resembles it most.

Building your entire career and argument on Onomastics is honestly an idiotic decision, and DNA is already showing how idiotic these people were in making such sweeping conclusions. For years i heard your type over and over again parrot the tired out old line of "no maritime vocabulary in albanian" ("Albanians couldn't have been on the adriatic") for which there are countless simple explanations such as it being specialized vocabulary which mainlanders didn't use, coastal illyrians being first to be romanized, while mainlanders surviving romanization, etc.

In one paper (Mathieson 2018) we got J2b2-L283 and Z2103 (which account for +60% of Albanian paternal ancestors) right on the croatian coast in royal tumuli and also an ancestral clade to Ev13. Y-dna samples that effectively place 95% of Albanians paternal ancestors on the Adriatic coast in Illyrian times.

Honestly, the more it unfolds the more and more the depth and depravity of Serb propaganda is revealed.

 

[LABERIA]

The science is conclusive that only Albanians that inhabit Kosovo are somewhat Illyrian which means nothing anyway since Illyrians come from Rome anyway

Start a separate thread and start to share what you consider science from your point of view.

 

[Salento]

It's not the Illyrian argument because Messapian isn't Illyrian. It would be like Poles claiming to be Goths.

If you have updated informations about the origins of the Messapi, or the Iapygians please share.