Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

[Crya]

Their father was called Nemanja. Nemanjić means son of Nemanja".



As I said.



No, it isn't. Croatian ethnonym appeared first time in 9th century in titles "DUX CHROATORUM" which means "Duke of Croats". The Croatian medieval culture appeared about the same time and has continuity during the rest of middle ages. Croatian ethnic identity has an interrupted continuity ever since. Croatian ethnonym also appeard in more then one medieval politiy (e.g. in Dioclea) which means that it was not regional, nor only political name, but rather ethnic too. Croatian vernacular appeared in middle ages too.

That what you said is not clarifying whether Croat was a tribal, ethnic or regional name. There is a link provided by Hrvat22 few hours ago.

https://www.jutarnji.hr/life/znanos...radavna-vremena-nisu-bili-isto-pleme/6175906/

Read paragraph about ethnos.

 

[Wonomyro]

This again? There are no Croatian and Serbian languages, only dialects of Serbo-Croatian as we have definitively established earlier in the thread. Štokavian comprises the majority of Serbo-Croatian speakers, and it is the most conservative of all extant Slavic tongues if Matasovic is to be believed.

The only language, that has a word Serbian in its name, was abandoned in the early 19th century in favor of "Illyrian" which was de facto Croatian standard before the official standardization. The term Serbo-Croatian was invented in 19th century as well.

What was Serb cultural contribution to the language spoken by Croats? Except few borrowings from the period of forceful unification - nothing. More borrowings came from Latin, and that is not a sufficient reason for Croats to call their own language other then Croatian. And indeed, nobody of Croats ever called their language Serbo-Croatian. It is the name used by scholars. It has a meaning for linguists, but not for speakers.

What needs to be explained then is how Serbians came to speak Štokavian. Note in this context also the ethnonim 'Serb', which probably quite simply means 'kinsmen, one of us', derived from the Proto-Slavic word for 'suckle' - a very common naming convention among primitive tribes called 'kinship by milk'. In contrast to the very conservative nature of this ethnonym, the Croats adopted a name that in all likelihood is not even linguistically Slavic.

The picture that emerges is that the ancestors of the Serbs were probably an extremely conservative group who never changed their language or traditions much.

Most ancestors of Serb were indeed conservative, but they were, as data showed, mostly Balkan natives who weren’t Slavic speakers.

If we analyze Western South Slavic major dialects (that linguists call “Serbo-Croatian”) then we can observe the following relations:

1. Čakavian – Croats
2. Kajkavian – Croats
3. Štokavian-Ikavian – Croats
4. Štokavian-(I)jekavian – Croats, (“Western” Serbs)
5. Štokavian-Ekavian – Croats (Ekavian from Kajkavian!), Serbs (Ekavian probably from Torlakian)
6. Torlakian-(Ekavian) - Serbs

Number 4 (Štokavian-jekavian) was a language of Croatian literature of Dubrovnik since 16th century. It is not detected in Serbian literature before the reform of 19th century. It is now a Croatian standard. (It was proposed to be the Serbian standard as well but Serbs never accepted it, instead a hybrid version under number 5 was accepted. (Stokavian-Ekavian)).

It is sometimes funny to see someone call genuine Croatian dialects - Čakavian, Kajkavian and Štokavian-Ikavian – Serbo-Croatian.

 

[markod]

The only language, that has a word Serbian in its name, was abandoned in the early 19th century in favor of "Illyrian" which was de facto Croatian standard before the official standardization. The term Serbo-Croatian was invented in 19th century as well.

What was Serb cultural contribution to the language spoken by Croats? Except few borrowings from the period of forceful unification - nothing. More borrowings came from Latin, and that is not a sufficient reason for Croats to call their own language other then Croatian. And indeed, nobody of Croats ever called their language Serbo-Croatian. It is the name used by scholars. It has a meaning for linguists (scholars always passionately classify things and invent weird names for them), but not for speakers.



Most ancestors of Serb were indeed conservative, but they were, as data showed, mostly Balkan natives who weren’t Slavic speakers.

If we analyze Western South Slavic major dialects (that linguists call “Serbo-Croatian”) then we can observe the following relations:

1. Čakavian – Croats
2. Kajkavian – Croats
3. Štokavian-Ikavian – Croats
4. Štokavian-(I)jekavian – Croats, (“Western” Serbs)
5. Štokavian-Ekavian – Croats (Ekavian from Kajkavian!), Serbs (Ekavian probably from Torlakian)
6. Torlakian-(Ekavian) - Serbs

Number 4 (Štokavian-jekavian) was a language of Croatian literature of Dubrovnik since 16. century. It is not detected in Serbian literature before the reform of 19th century. It is now a Croatian standard. (It was proposed to be the Serbian standard as well but Serbs never accepted it, instead a hybrid version under number 5 was accepted. (Stokavian-Ekavian)).

It is sometimes funny to see how foreign linguists very seriously call genuine Croatian diaects - Čakavian, Kajkavian and Štolkavian-Ikavian – Serbo-Croatian.

The Štokavian sub-dialects are internally more related to each other than they are to other dialects, their next relative being Torlakian. How do you explain that? A much higher percentage of Serbs speak Štokavian, it is not a Croatian dialect. Standardized Serbo-Croatian is based on a Štokavian dialect from Hercegovina, but we're talking about traditional dialects.

As for your claim about Serbs being Balkan natives, you're just wrong. Here's the Y-DNA profile from the Serbian ancestry project for Orthodox Serbs:


I2a1b-L621: 32.49%
R1a: 23.48%
E1b: 13.84 %
J2: 9.43%
I1: 10.48%
G2a: 4.82-5%
N: 1,68%
R1b: 1.68%
Q: 0.21%
H: 0.15%

So roughly 60% Slavic, 25% Balkanic and 15% Germanic.

 

[Wonomyro]

Yes they converted to being Catholic then they called themselves Croats and moved to Dalmatia.

Why is everything with you Serbian propaganda? Read where Bosnians and Croats moved during the Ottoman rule. You converted to being Catholic then you called yourself Croats your demographics is much smaller than Serbia yet you claim to be indigenous because you inhabit Dalmatia that's Croatian propaganda, not Serbian.

Why should any Serbs convert to Catholicism and start to call themselves Croats? What’s the point?

How did that happen? Ottomans destroyed all Catholic churches in the territory they occupied. New churches were rebuilt as Serb Orthodox. How is it possible that anyone there “convert” to Catholicism? The logic say that it happened just opposite.

Then how can you say that you don’t spread Serbian nationalistic propaganda? A very cheap one, I would say. What did Serbs do for you that you risk your reputation for them?

For the orientation, here is the nice map that shows the border between Western and Eastern Church in 11^th century:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Expansion_of_christianity.jpg

 

[hrvat22]

don_joe

Interesting. But I would say, if it was their mother tongue, it can't be incorrect. He was probably a speaker of some other idiom and he took the other one as his reference.

Evliya Çelebi quotes Serbian words and they are similar with Croatian words but he says that Serbians do not speak as Croats and Bosniaks, today we all talk similar. It is obvious that in the 17th century there was a difference in the pronunciation of these words.

I'm Z16988

Yes, for now I see that this branch has couple of Albanians but the same is 3,000 years old so you need to see what subbranch you have, there is also possibility of Illyrian assimilation in the time of Croat arrival to Roman Dalmatia.

 

[Lenab]

Why should any Serbs convert to Catholicism and start to call themselves Croats? What’s the point?

How did that happen? Ottomans destroyed all Catholic churches in the territory they occupied. New churches were rebuilt as Serb Orthodox. How is it possible that anyone there “convert” to Catholicism? The logic say that it happened just opposite.

Then how can do you say that you don’t spread Serbian nationalistic propaganda? A very cheap one, I would say. What did Serbs do for you that you risk your reputation for them?

For the orientation, here is the nice map that shows the border between Western and Eastern Church in 11^th century:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Expansion_of_christianity.jpg

What do you mean why would Serbs go to Croatian territories that Turks destroyed and build Orthodox Churches? Turks destroyed everything Serbia and Greece were the main countries fighting against them

I know the difference between the Churches

Also what's the point? The point is to not be Serbs same as Bosnians who ( I am watching my language ) took what the Turks served up

 

[hrvat22]

That what you said is not clarifying whether Croat was a tribal, ethnic or regional name. There is a link provided by Hrvat22 few hours ago.

https://www.jutarnji.hr/life/znanos...radavna-vremena-nisu-bili-isto-pleme/6175906/

Read paragraph about ethnos.

What you want to know?

 

[hrvat22]

What do you mean why would Serbs go to Croatian territories that Turks destroyed and build Orthodox Churches? Turks destroyed everything Serbia and Greece were the main countries fighting against them

I know the difference between the Churches

Also what's the point? The point is to not be Serbs same as Bosnians who ( I am watching my language ) took what the Turks served up

Battle of Nicopolis

The strength of the Ottoman forces is also estimated at about 15-20,000; but inflated figures are common here as well. Numerous sources provide estimates of the size of the army as up to 60,000 including the Ottoman historian Şükrullah, who, writing in the 1460s, gives the figure of the Ottoman army as 60,000 in his Behçetu't-Tevârih; alternately described as roughly half of the Crusader army. The Ottoman force also included 3,500 Serbian heavy cavalry knights^[ under the command of Prince Stefan Lazarević, who was Sultan Bayezid's brother-in-law and vassal since the Battle of Kosovo in 1389

 

[LABERIA]

What do you mean why would Serbs go to Croatian territories that Turks destroyed and build Orthodox Churches? Turks destroyed everything Serbia and Greece were the main countries fighting against them

Absolutely not true. Stop talking nonsense.

 

[Wonomyro]

Linking quote again "

When Serbs finally accepted the language "that was used in Croatian schools" the latter was no longer called "Illyrian" but got a new politically correct, but equally ridiculous name "Serbo-Croatian". However, Serbs didn't care about the political corretness and started to call their "new" language (only slightly localized) - Serbian, strightaway."

Where did you find this? It is not in the link you have provided before.​

I am afraid that you made a mistake. Take a look again into my post:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ve-than-Slavic?p=559883&viewfull=1#post559883

The text you are pointing to was not quoted. That means that the sentences were mine, not from the source. If you wanted to know where I get information about the "first Serbian dictionary", here it is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srpski_rječnik

Srpski rječnik (Serbian Cyrillic: Српски рјечник, pronounced [sr̩̂pskiː rjê̞ːtʃniːk], The Serbian Dictionary; full name: Српски рјечник истолкован њемачким и латинским ријечма, "The Serbian Dictionary, paralleled with German and Latin words") is a dictionary written by Vuk Stefanović Karadžić, first published in 1818. It is the first known dictionary of the vernacular Serbian language.[1]

First known dictionary of the vernacular Serbian language in 1818. OMG!

Practically, the same language had been already used by Croats 400-500 years back, and it was called anyhow (Croatian, Dalmatian, Illyrian, Slovinski...) but NEVER Serbian. Even the term used in the title - Rječnik (=Dictionary) - was a borrowing from Croatian Kajkavian dialect which was NEVER used by Serbs.

 

[hrvat22]

The Štokavian sub-dialects are internally more related to each other than they are to other dialects, their next relative being Torlakian. How do you explain that? A much higher percentage of Serbs speak Štokavian, it is not a Croatian dialect. Standardized Serbo-Croatian is based on a Štokavian dialect from Hercegovina, but we're talking about traditional dialects.

As for your claim about Serbs being Balkan natives, you're just wrong. Here's the Y-DNA profile from the Serbian ancestry project for Orthodox Serbs:


I2a1b-L621: 32.49%
R1a: 23.48%
E1b: 13.84 %
J2: 9.43%
I1: 10.48%
G2a: 4.82-5%
N: 1,68%
R1b: 1.68%
Q: 0.21%
H: 0.15%

So roughly 60% Slavic, 25% Balkanic and 15% Germanic.

Genetics of Bosnian Serbs.

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/22Kangars/BesenyoGeneticsEn.htm

E1b 20%, J2 8%, R1b 6%

Y-chromosomalhaplogroups identified among the Serbs from Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina are the following:

E1b1b1a2-V13 (20.35 and 19.80%)
R1b1b2-M269 (10.62 and 6.20%)
J2b-M102 (4.40 and 6.20%),

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Serbs

 

[Lenab]

Absolutely not true. Stop talking nonsense.

Don't get involved unless you want me to start again on Kosovo history

 

[Lenab]

Battle of Nicopolis

Turks had many Serbian slaves and others by them what's your point here. Despite the fact that some converted most of the resistance was from Greece Russia Serbia etc.

Some Catholics resisted yes

 

[Lenab]

Genetics of Bosnian Serbs.

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/22Kangars/BesenyoGeneticsEn.htm

E1b 20%, J2 8%, R1b 6%

Y-chromosomalhaplogroups identified among the Serbs from Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina are the following:

E1b1b1a2-V13 (20.35 and 19.80%)
R1b1b2-M269 (10.62 and 6.20%)
J2b-M102 (4.40 and 6.20%),

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Serbs

What's their I2B for that region. Interesting their E3b is like Montenegrin

 

[LABERIA]

Don't get involved unless you want me to start again on Kosovo history

I am not talking about Kosova, don`t jump in another topic. Let me repeat again, your post is nonsense. After the battle of Kosova, serbs didn` fought anymore against the Ottomans, they were vasals of the Ottomans and fought side by side with turks against everyone in Balkans. Meanwhile about greeks, there is not one single battle of the greeks against the Ottomans, ZERO,find me one if you can. The war of the Ottomans in Europe were against the Catholics. Orthodoxy, apart Orthodox Albanins and to some extend Romanians, joined the Ottomans aginst the Europe. This is HISTORY.

 

[hrvat22]

Croats your demographics is much smaller than Serbia yet you claim to be indigenous because you inhabit Dalmatia that's Croatian propaganda, not Serbian.

Serbs were also settled from the "Stokavian" areas.

When a more tolerable state is found in Sumadija, there is an increasing inflow of immigrants, they are coming to Sumadija in an increasing number, and the maximum of their settlements was after the Karadjord uprising (1804).

Šumadia are settled by settlers from almost all parts of today's kingdom, but they are mostly from dinaric areas, i.e. from Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, from Sjenice and Novi Pazar, Kolasin, Pešteri and Bihor, Dalmatia, Lika and other Dinaric regions.

http://www.srpsko-nasledje.rs/sr-l/1998/10/article-1.html

 

[td120]

Cyrillic is an alphabet based on Greek alphabet. Brothers Cyrillus and Methodius developed it after Glagollitic, which they created first to help spread Christianity from the Byzantine. Latin letters are used in Croatia since the Middle Ages. The only contact with Cyrillic was before the '90. in 5. class in school.

Cyrillic script was created by St. Cyril and St.Methodius' disciples at the end of IX or the very beginning of Xth century. It's named so in honor of the two "Apostles to the Slavs".
What the two brothers devised was the Glagolitic script and this was what they used to translate the Holy Scriptures in the language of the Slavs .

 

[Wonomyro]

The Štokavian sub-dialects are internally more related to each other than they are to other dialects, their next relative being Torlakian. How do you explain that? A much higher percentage of Serbs speak Štokavian, it is not a Croatian dialect. Standardized Serbo-Croatian is based on a Štokavian dialect from Hercegovina, but we're talking about traditional dialects.

What makes you think that all those dialects, including the Štokavian-jekavian dialect form Herzegovina, were genuine Serbian? The speakers of that dialect who lived in neighbouring Dubrovnik Republic never called themselves Serbs (except a group of intelectuals during the short period in 19th century under the influence of Serbian propaganda). Just contrary, in the very same language, the word "serbify" (posrbliti) has a meaning to convert to Serb Orthodox faith, which the citizens of Dubrovnik Republic were strictly against. Moreover, it was forbidden for Serbs to stay overnight within city walls. It is obvious that the people who lived in Herzegovina were not Serbs before they (some of them) were converted to Serb Orthodox faith.

As for your claim about Serbs being Balkan natives, you're just wrong. Here's the Y-DNA profile from the Serbian ancestry project for Orthodox Serbs:

I2a1b-L621: 32.49%
R1a: 23.48%
E1b: 13.84 %
J2: 9.43%
I1: 10.48%
G2a: 4.82-5%
N: 1,68%
R1b: 1.68%
Q: 0.21%
H: 0.15%

So roughly 60% Slavic, 25% Balkanic and 15% Germanic.

These haplogroup data have no value as we don't know how many of them originated in Serbia, and how many are so called "Westrn Serbs" whose Serb origin is questionable. I am talking about autosomal data. Serbians samples usually show over 60% of native genetic.

 

[Lenab]

I am not talking about Kosova, don`t jump in another topic. Let me repeat again, your post is nonsense. After the battle of Kosova, serbs didn` fought anymore against the Ottomans, they were vasals of the Ottomans and fought side by side with turks against everyone in Balkans. Meanwhile about greeks, there is not one single battle of the greeks against the Ottomans, ZERO,find me one if you can. The war of the Ottomans in Europe were against the Catholics. Orthodoxy, apart Orthodox Albanins and to some extend Romanians, joined the Ottomans aginst the Europe. This is HISTORY.

Do you know that 47 Ottoman officials were of Albanian descent? What was Ataturk the young Turks Djemal Pasha? There were many Serbian resistances no Serbian slave of Turks did not aid for the sake of it part of the point for becoming Turks was working for them this goes for any nationality. You might as well say that for any idiot who converted to Islam for the sake of Turks in the past 500 years did this

 

[hrvat22]

What's their I2B for that region. Interesting their E3b is like Montenegrin

You think I1b? Croats have 70%, Bosnians 40%, and Serbians 30%

Genetically quite different populations.