Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

[markod]

We didn't establish that Serbo-Croatian was ever one language, not in linguistic sense, only politically. The fact is that it's a political effort in the 2nd half of the 20th century with a relatively short duration. It was a Frankenstein made up to give the citizens a new Yugoslavian identity.

No, linguistically what we call Serbo-Croatian is 100% one language with several dialects that share a common genetic descent. You can call this grouping whatever you want, 'Serbo-Croatian' is just the naming convention that I use for convenience sake.

 

[hrvat22]

No, linguistically what we call Serbo-Croatian is 100% one language with several dialects that share a common genetic descent. You can call this grouping whatever you want, 'Serbo-Croatian' is just the naming convention that I use for convenience sake.

You always have to keep in mind that language has nothing to do with origin of man, tribe and ultimately people in some country. That Croats speak Chinese they still coming from White Croatia.

 

[Wonomyro]

No, linguistically what we call Serbo-Croatian is 100% one language with several dialects that share a common genetic descent. You can call this grouping whatever you want, 'Serbo-Croatian' is just the naming convention that I use for convenience sake.

Do Canadians use standard English?

 

[markod]

Do Canadians use standard English?

Well, some do I guess. Linguistically national identities and such are irrelevant; we know that the entire Anglosphere speaks languages derived from the tribes who invaded Britain ~450 A.D. . If they people of the colonies felt like it, they could start calling their languages 'American', 'Australian' etc. - that changes nothing.

 

[Wonomyro]

Well, some do I guess.

Obviously not, because Standard English is actually British English:

Standard English (SE, also standardized English) refers to the dialect of English language that is used as the national norm—the standard language—in an English-speaking country, especially as the language for public and formal usage.[1] In England and Wales, the term standard English is associated with British English, the Received Pronunciation accent, and the United Kingdom Standard English (UKSE) grammar and vocabulary.

Canadians speak Canadian English:

Canadian English (CanE, CE, en-CA)[3] is the set of varieties of the English language native to Canada

They have their own Standard Canadian English too:

Standard Canadian English is the greatly homogeneous variety of Canadian English spoken particularly all across central and western Canada,

(You told me "good luck" with my Croatian Standard. Will you say same to Canadians?)

Well, some do I guess. Linguistically national identities and such are irrelevant; we know that the entire Anglosphere speaks languages derived from the tribes who invaded Britain ~450 A.D. . If they people of the colonies felt like it, they could start calling their languages 'American', 'Australian' etc. - that changes nothing.

The languages of the tribes called Angles and Saxons were very different from the modern British English. However, a nation called English, during the centuries, created a modern language through their literature, and therefore it is called - English.

Shall I continue....?

 

[markod]

Obviously not, because Standard English is actually British English:



Canadians speak Canadian English:



They have their own Standard Canadian English too:



(Wish them "good luck" with their standard!)



The languages of the tribes called Angles and Saxons were very different from the modern British English. However, a nation called English, during the centuries, created a modern language through their literature, and therefore it is called - English.

Shall I continue....?

Please don't, it's getting tiring. We all know that all English dialects share a common genetic descent, the rest is irrelevant.

 

[Wonomyro]

Please don't, it's getting tiring. We all know that all English dialects share a common genetic descent, the rest is irrelevant.

Have I said that they dont? Same is with Croatian dialects.

Yes, it's getting tiring. The discussion started because you said that Croatian Standard language "does not exist". I showed you that even Canadians have their Standard, even thought English is considered one language.

And then you additionally implied that only Kajkavian dialect is Croatian. Well, I showed you that all three main dialects, of what you called Serbo-Croatian, have been - Croatian throughout history.

 

[hrvat22]

Please don't, it's getting tiring. We all know that all English dialects share a common genetic descent, the rest is irrelevant.

Basque country R1b 85%
France R1b 58,5%
Switzerland R1b 50%
North Italy R1b 49,5%
Germany R1b 44.5%
England R1b 67%

All these people in these countries with R1b or most of them have a common ancestry somewhere in Switzerland or Northeast France. Therefore "English" peoples had common genetic descent and before they came to the island, which language they brought?

 

[Wonomyro]

..............................

 

[gidai]

hrvat22, Lol...!
How can a language to have as genetic ancestor a haplogrup ?!

 

[hrvat22]

hrvat22, Lol...!
How can a language to have as genetic ancestor a haplogrup ?!

Please translate, thank you!!

 

[hrvat22]

 

[gidai]

hrvat22,
Is was about English or the R1b haplogrup? For me it's like comparing an atom with a poem.
I do not see any similarity.

 

[markod]

Have I said that they dont? Same is with Croatian dialects.

Yes, it's getting tiring. The discussion started because you said that Croatian Standard language "does not exist". I showed you that even Canadians have their Standard, even thought English is considered one language.

And then you additionally implied that only Kajkavian dialect is Croatian. Well, I showed you that all three main dialects, of what you called Serbo-Croatian, have been - Croatian throughout history.

We're in agreement then: a unified Croatian language doesn't exist outside of modern political narratives. An exclusively Serbian language doesn't exist either. It's all dialects of a Serbo-Croatian ancestral language and their distributions don't correspond to national borders or ethnic identities.

 

[hrvat22]

hrvat22,
Is was about English or the R1b haplogrup? For me it's like comparing an atom with a poem.
I do not see any similarity.

I asked markod simple question, he said that English dialects share a common genetic descent, he probably meant descendant?. I'm waiting for an answer so I would ask for your patience, thanks.

 

[LABERIA]

I am talking about facts. Glorious Serbian fightings against Turks were more a myth then a reality. On Kosovo Battle there were also Croatian and other foreign units fighting on the Serbian side. One of them was John of Palisna with his Knights of Saint John:



Would it be disrespectful to mention that some Serb nobility refused to fight as they were in peace with Ottomans. Some Serbs also escaped (Branković) during the battle and left Bosnians to continue the fight.

True. There were 10.000 Croats in the battle of Kosova. There were also Albanians, Vlachs and Bulgarians. It was an Balcanic coalition.

[h=3]1515
John Musachi:
Brief Chronicle on the Descendants of our Musachi Dynasty[/h]

I wish you to know that the destruction of the Byzantine Empire, which also meant our own destruction, began with a disagreement between Palaeologus (2) and Cantacuzene (3). This led to Palaeologus asking assistance from Murad I, the King of the Turks (4). The latter set foot in Europe, it is said, in 1363.
Passing through all these countries, he occupied much land, among which was the city of Adrianopole (Edirne). When Murad the Second (5) took power, he seized Serbia and Bulgaria in a huge onslaught. Lazar (6), the Despot of Serbia, and King Marko of Bulgaria and Theodore Musachi, the second-born of our family, and the other Lords of Albania united and set off for battle, which the Christians lost (7). It was there that the above mentioned Theodore, who had a large band of Albanians with him, was slain. The said Lazar of Serbia was taken prisoner and later slain. Now began a period of continuous warfare with the Turks in Albania, in which many lords and gentlemen gave their lives.

Source:
Extract from: Breve memoria de li discendenti de nostra casa Musachi. Per Giovanni Musachi, despoto d'Epiro. Published in: Chroniques gréco-romanes inédites ou peu connues publiées avec notes et tables généalogiques, ed. Charles Hopf, Berlin, 1873, p. 270 340. Translated from the Italian by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 34-55.

P.S.
Various sources suggest that the most numerous troops were the Albanian and that they were placed in the front rows.
Can you search in your sources for this book please:
Enciklopedija Jugoslavije, knj. 4, Zagreb, 1960. Page 467 is of my interest.

 

[JajarBingan]

A thing that is not told on this thread but is mentioned in the history:
Croats were living previously to their migration somewhere in North of Romania, in the SW of current Ukraine land.
Now, in that area there is plenty of I2-din.
I do not think is mentioned how much time Croats lived in that area, but a very plausible hypothesis is that White Croats took I2-din from that area, North of Romania.
To whom this I2-din belonged, well to the Thracian-Gothic population that was there and which very likely was Slavizied.

Highly unlikely - you see when it comes to tracing the origin of a subclade, the numbers alone are not enough. That might simply be a bottleneck and it really seems like that, because Croats nowadays overwhelmingly belong to I2 (Y3120>S17250>PH908).
What's more informative is the diversity of clades and apparently that's falls somewhere at the borders of Belarus and Poland.

Here's something interesting:

Courtesy to http://blog.vayda.pl/en/i2a-dinaric-subclade-y3120-2/

 

[Crya]

True. There were 10.000 Croats in the battle of Kosova. There were also Albanians, Vlachs and Bulgarians. It was an Balcanic coalition.

1515
John Musachi:
Brief Chronicle on the Descendants of our Musachi Dynasty


Source:
Extract from: Breve memoria de li discendenti de nostra casa Musachi. Per Giovanni Musachi, despoto d'Epiro. Published in: Chroniques gréco-romanes inédites ou peu connues publiées avec notes et tables généalogiques, ed. Charles Hopf, Berlin, 1873, p. 270 340. Translated from the Italian by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 34-55.

P.S.
Various sources suggest that the most numerous troops were the Albanian and that they were placed in the front rows.
Can you search in your sources for this book please:
Enciklopedija Jugoslavije, knj. 4, Zagreb, 1960. Page 467 is of my interest.

Was there any Serb fighting in that battle?

 

[JajarBingan]

We are here in huge proportion Balkan people!


But I want to be viking. :grin:

Not really, that's simply how they call the average of a bunch of modern people from Southeast Europe. Apparently, it's tipped towards West Balkans, which indicates that there are more references from there.

With regards to vikings and whatever ancients from Europe, everyone in this thread is related to at least one individual from each culture.

http://nautil.us/issue/56/perspective/youre-descended-from-royalty-and-so-is-everybody-else

 

[Milan.M]

Highly unlikely - you see when it comes to tracing the origin of a subclade, the numbers alone are not enough. That might simply be a bottleneck and it really seems like that, because Croats nowadays overwhelmingly belong to I2 (Y3120>S17250>PH908).
What's more informative is the diversity of clades and apparently that's falls somewhere at the borders of Belarus and Poland.

Here's something interesting:

Courtesy to http://blog.vayda.pl/en/i2a-dinaric-subclade-y3120-2/

On the map you presented i see a lot of diversity in Ukraine,Romania and Hungary too for example.