Final thread.. which Europeans overlap with Levantines? Multiple choice.

[Goga]

Of course they are darker than the Dutch. DUH! Are you even sure the people you speak of are NATIVE Spaniards? As a whole, Spaniards resemble Western Euros in general. No, you are not blind, just biased in your perceptions. :useless:

You seem to have an obsession with darkening Iberians. It's quite strange.

No, I'm not obsessed with Iberians. The thing is if WE ALL speak the truth we will find the real truth very fast! But due to twisting of facts by some people the whole thing became very confusing.

Iberians ARE Europeans and they look very European, but in general they are 'dark' Europeans and compared to Dutch people, Scandinavians etc. they have got very 'schwartie' features!

 

[Knovas]

In skin pigmentation the difference isn't absolutely huge. Dutch have usually pink tones, while Iberians are plain pale. Hair and eye colour is another story. With the British the similarities are even higher.

And it's true, like it or not, Iberians are very Western European, so you cannot pretend to obtain such things. Is what the latest results show, and I2a subclades have surely a lot to do with it.

 

[Goga]

In skin pigmentation the difference isn't absolutely huge. Dutch have usually pink tones, while Iberians are plain pale. Hair and eye colour is another story. With the British the similarities are even higher.

And it's true, like it or not, Iberians are very Western European, so you cannot pretend to obtain such things. Is what the latest results show, and I2a subclades have surely a lot to do with it.

Yes, Iberians are Western European, but they're also SOUTH(West) European. While Dutch people are NORTH(West) European. Of all Europeans the Iberians have (together with Italians) less hg. 'I'.


Iberians are very ancient Europeans (and one of the oldest!) and they have R1b!

According to me the original carriers of hg. I were 'lighter' than the original carriers of hg. R1b.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

No, I'm not obsessed with Iberians. The thing is if WE ALL speak the truth we will find the real truth very fast! But due to twisting of facts by some people the whole thing became very confusing.

Iberians ARE Europeans and they look very European, but in general they are 'dark' Europeans and compared to Dutch people, Scandinavians etc. they have got very 'schwartie' features!

"Schwarthy" (swarthy)? What is your definition of swarthy, anyone who is not alabaster in skin tone? Sorry, but the only one twisting facts is you. Once again for those with a challenged perspective of reality: Iberians, on average, have light to medium skin tones and some reasonable levels of light hair and eyes. Check all the autosomal DNA data and studies such as Jablonsky (2006). The large percentage resemble standard Western Europeans. Of course, they are darker than Scandinavians, Dutch and a few others. Hardly surprising.

 

[Goga]

Of course, they are darker than Scandinavians, Dutch and others. Hardly surprising.

I do agree with you on this. I'm not saying that Iberians are very 'dark'. I'm just saying that the Iberians are 'darker' compared to the NORTH Europeans.

But Spaniars are very European looking!

 

[Knovas]

You are a contradiction Goga. If Iberians are the most Paleolithic, you MUST accept they are mostly composed of I2a variants. Yes, exactly what the Southwestern cluster means. Not casual when you check the distances to see this cluster like being isolated. It perfectly matches I2a1a* (but also others), very likely to originate in isolation around the Pyrenees and relevant presence in Iberia (the most accepted right now).

R1b is much more recent, and the presence in Iberia autosomally speaking is less than 40% in average according to the last clues. Is not bad, ok, but still lower if we compare with Southwestern, wich has little to do with R1b. Just go and check the British average of the latest Calculator, you cannot match the Southwestern with R1b. Scandinavians and others have haplogroup I, but they have mostly I1 in them, without considering R1b. Wich yes, is recent, none of the ancient DNA found till the moment is R1b in Europe. But wait, there's a lot of I2a variants wich have been found.

Think about it, the evidence says the opposite to your claims. No Paleolithic R1b in Europe, sorry.


PD: And I tell you, me and most of my family are around 60% Southwestern according to the last results, and you'd have serious difficulties to find people with lighter skin than us. Without considering other light traits, also present, as for example light eyes. But this wasn't the point as I hope you finally understood.

 

[Goga]

What are you talking about? Spanish people have only 6% of hg. I! And they're one of the ancient Europeans! Basque folks are very old and they have only 5 - 5.5 % of hg. 'I'.

http://eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml


PS. I'm not speaking about the individual cases. I'm 100% pure Kurdish (Iranic) and West Asian and most of my family is whiter than Polish people. Most of my family members have very light hair, a lot of them are even RED headed! But in GENERAL Kurds are darker than Europeans (including Spaniards!).

 

[Knovas]

I mean AUTOSOMAL guy. The high R1b you see is a recent replacement. A massive migration can erase haplogroups, but the previous autosomes, if significant, will still be present. That's what happened.

Don't you see it's not normal to have more R1b in Catalonia than in Ireland? Wake up, that's the clear effect of a recent replacement, at least, in comparison with the whole history dominated by others. In this case, I2a peoples.

 

[sparkey]

But wait, there's a lot of I2a variants wich have been found.

Actually if you're talking the Neolithic, just some I2a1a so far, in Treilles 5000 years ago (about 1000 years after I2a1a started spreading significantly). The next we've found isn't until the Urnfield samples, which turned up I2a2b for about 3000 years ago in Germany. But this probably supports your point anyway... that ancient I2a1a carriers in particular seem to be major contributors to Southwestern European autosomal DNA.

 

[Goga]

I mean AUTOSOMAL guy. The high R1b you see is a recent replacement. A massive migration can erase haplogroups, but the previous autosomes, if significant, will still be present. That's what happened.

Don't you see it's not normal to have more R1b in Catalonia than in Ireland? Wake up, that's the clear effect of a recent replacement, at least, in comparison with the whole history dominated by others. In this case, I2a peoples.

????

How can you see on AUTOSOMAL that your race belong to 'I', R1b etc. or someting.


AUTOSOMAL is not only Y-DNA, but also mtDNA!

I think that Spanish mtDNA is the same as Northern European!

 

[Knovas]

Thanks sparkey, you know exactly to explain this things better. Your point is helpful.

 

[Knovas]

????

How can you see on AUTOSOMAL that your race belong to 'I', R1b etc. or someting.


AUTOSOMAL is not only Y-DNA, but also mtDNA!

I think that Spanish mtDNA is the same as Northern European!

You can belong to haplogroup Q and cluster with Scandinavians. But this doesn't change the fact that autosomes are an amount of superposed haplogroups, going from a generation to another. And Iberians are very likely to have a huge background of I2a peoples, like it or not.

Or do you think that autosomes grow like a mushroom in the forest?

 

[Goga]

And Iberians are very likely to have a huge background of I2a peoples, like it or not.

Or do you think that autosomes grow like a mushroom in the forest?

It doesn't matter for me what Iberians are, but I don't believe in fantasy and science fiction.

Iberian Y-DNA distribution doesn't lie and it speaks volumes! Iberians have almost no hg. 'I'! FACT!

 

[Knovas]

Think what you want, but the haplogroup distribution several times does not match. The ancient DNA found is what really don't lie at the moment.

Good afternoon.

 

[sparkey]

It doesn't matter for me what Iberians are, but I don't believe in fantasy and science fiction.

Iberian Y-DNA distribution doesn't lie and it speaks volumes! Iberians have almost no hg. 'I'! FACT!

Goga, agree or disagree with the following?: "Y-DNA is a biased marker, and Y-DNA haplogroup frequencies in a population tend to magnify the effect of later migrations on that population."

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

It doesn't matter for me what Iberians are, but I don't believe in fantasy and science fiction.

Iberian Y-DNA distribution doesn't lie and it speaks volumes! Iberians have almost no hg. 'I'! FACT!

"FACT"??? Much of what has been recently discussed contradicts what you are saying. Once more, why are you so obsessed with unfairly darkening (in every which way, it seems) Iberians? What's eating you?

 

[Goga]

"FACT"??? Much of what has been recently discussed contradicts what you are saying. Once more, why are you so obsessed with unfairly darkening (in every which way, it seems) Iberians? What's eating you?

Do you really think that I'm a moron?

How can the Spanish hg. 'R1b' be actually hg. 'I'?

Spanish folks are very close to other Europeans because of R1b and mtDNA! mtDNA of all Europeans is almost the same and very native to Europe!

 

[Knovas]

R1b it's significant in autosomal results, but not the huge I2a variants are. I think it's easy to understand. And both R1b's find in Europe and I subclades are "very European" (quite redundant, but necessary to say), so of course Spaniards are similar to other Europeans. Not only for the R1b, it's the full chorus.

¿Why we should be that different for being composed mostly of I2a subclades? You have strange points man...

 

[Goga]

R1b it's significant in autosomal results, but not the huge I2a variants are. I think it's easy to understand. And both R1b's find in Europe and I subclades are "very European" (quite redundant, but necessary to say), so of course Spaniards are similar to other Europeans. Not only for the R1b, it's the full chorus.

¿Why we should be that different for being composed mostly of I2a subclades? You have strange points man...

Yes that's true. European R1b and hg. 'I' are very native European haplogroups. But native hg. 'I' carriers lived in Northern Europe while native R1b carriers lived in Southern Europe and British Islands.
According to me the original R1b carriers were darker than the original hg. 'I' carriers. Spaniards have compared to North Europeans more R1b and less of hg. 'I'. That's why they are in general somehow darker than Northern Europeans!

That's my point and nothing else!

 

[Knovas]

Not all I's lived in Northern Europe. Check this thread, it's quite ilustrative: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26944-The-Paleolithic-Remnants-a-map&p=384627#post384627

Check the sublcades in the map, specially those located in the Pyrenees and Iberia, and perhaps you'll understand what I mean.