Final thread.. which Europeans overlap with Levantines? Multiple choice.

[zanipolo]

Ok, thanks.

As fas as I do understand hg. I2a never fully entered into the Iberian Peninsula and never fully established there. And that I2a came actually from other 'Northern' location in Europe ('northern' compared to the Iberian Peninsula)...

I agree in that it never fully entered, meaning in a large % of population to decimate the original HG.
I recently found this map
http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/European_Haplogroup_locations_circa_5,000BC.jpg
and it indicates the various I HG . then again this is year 5000BC

http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/y-Haplogroup_I1_and_Ancient_European_Migrations.pdf

 

[Knovas]

And still with the same...I2a1a it's very clear to have been in Southern France or North Iberia since the begining, so ¿who cares if it fully entered or not? It's enough to generate Southwestern autosomes.

¿Wich do you think is the genetic composition of the Southern French? It's practically the same as Northeast Iberians! come on.

Again, it doesn't mean anything that you don't see a huge percent of this haplogroup, since a massive recent replacement can erase it easily. But the full genome is another thing, not that easy to be replaced. And if you are interested, there's a hot spot in Aragón with a substantial percent according to Eupedia. For sure after Sardinia (genetic isolate, don't forget it), it's the largest you can find in all Europe. Not casual, I don't think so.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Some people just don't understand (despite the obvious) things or they refuse to acknowledge reality.

 

[zanipolo]

I agree in that it never fully entered, meaning in a large % of population to decimate the original HG.
I recently found this map
http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/European_Haplogroup_locations_circa_5,000BC.jpg
and it indicates the various I HG . then again this is year 5000BC

http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/y-Haplogroup_I1_and_Ancient_European_Migrations.pdf

http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/y-Haplogroup_I1_and_Ancient_European_Migrations.pdf

 

[zanipolo]

Some people just don't understand (despite the obvious) things or they refuse to acknowledge reality.

wow .................very deep ............trying to find the obvious, no luck though

 

[zanipolo]

And still with the same...I2a1a it's very clear to have been in Southern France or North Iberia since the begining, so ¿who cares if it fully entered or not? It's enough to generate Southwestern autosomes.

true

¿Wich do you think is the genetic composition of the Southern French? It's practically the same as Northeast Iberians! come on.

Ligurians as per bell beaker results

Again, it doesn't mean anything that you don't see a huge percent of this haplogroup, since a massive recent replacement can erase it easily. But the full genome is another thing, not that easy to be replaced. And if you are interested, there's a hot spot in Aragón with a substantial percent according to Eupedia. For sure after Sardinia (genetic isolate, don't forget it), it's the largest you can find in all Europe. Not casual, I don't think so.

The 10 map link I presented has some with population migration numbers. With these numbers we do not know what & it represents as we do not know the original population.
But we can still figure out was the the other HG when we already know that HG I was the migratiing HG

 

[zanipolo]

Yes, but those people you mentioned just happen to be the most depigmented Europeans, so of course Spaniards in general are "darker" than them.

Unless you know something I do not know , then realise that de-pigamentation works one way , it always lightens.

So, the whole world's people at one time could have been a darker skin colour , mongolonians still have a darkish skin even eskimos and they live in colder areas

 

[Knovas]

Iberia was the main refuge for humans during the last glacial age. Pretending no haplogroup I entered and lived in the Peninsula for a very long time, sorry, but it's plain absurd. Totally unlikely, and much more considering the apreciable presence of I2a1a* among the Pyrenees (around 8% according to 23andmme) and the Aragonese hot spot mentioned here in Eupedia.

¿Why is so difficult to accept that I2a1a* and probably other similar clades had a huge impact in the Iberian autosomes? ¿For the R1b? It's time to wake up, this is much more recent.

Look at the amount of I2a1a* Sardinians have, and then check their autosomes in the recent calculator. They don't get in any case the high Southwestern apreciable in Iberians (more evident if we check Northeast Iberians), and the reason seems very clear. This haplogroup is recent there in comparison with others, so it's impossible to expect the same impact in the full genome. Exactly what happens in the case of R1b for Iberians, although it's still significant while checking the Northwestern.

Well, I though this new points were necessary to consider too.

 

[Goga]

¿Why is so difficult to accept that I2a1a* and probably other similar clades had a huge impact in the Iberian autosomes? ¿For the R1b? It's time to wake up, this is much more recent.

If R1b arrived much later haplogroups J and E would make even more impact in the Spanish autosomes since there is even more of hg. J and E in Spanish population.

there's 9.5 % of J* , 7 % of hg. E and 7 % of hg. 'I'. Hg. 'E' would make at least the same impact on the Spanish DNA!

If R1b arrived much later that would make Basques the youngest (the most recent arrived) population in Europe, since they have the most of R1b.

The question is this serious to even consider that? Only very confused folks believe that Basques are not the ancient but the youngest folks in Europe, LOL!

 

[Knovas]

They speak the oldest language, that not means they must be genetically the oldest (at least, actual Basques). No way, think about it.

¿What are you saying about J and E? British also have a lot of R1b and surely it's what they mostly are autosomally speaking, and they have low extra-euro admixtures. Well, they show around 7% West Asian, while Spaniards don't. Don't know if this tells you something or not with such strange thoughts.

 

[Goga]

They speak the oldest language, that not means they must be genetically the oldest (at least, actual Basques). No way, think about it.

¿What are you saying about J and E? British also have a lot of R1b and surely it's what they mostly are autosomally speaking, and they have low extra-euro admixtures. Well, they show around 7% West Asian, while Spaniards don't. Don't know if this tells you something or not with such strange thoughts.

Just imagine Spanish Y-DNA distribution without R1b!

If R1b arrived into Iberia as the LAST haplogroup even after J2, in Iberia would be very much hg. J*, E and 'I'.

There is more hg. J* than 'I' in Iberia.
Before R1b, Spanish Y-DNA distribution would look like this:

33% = J*
27% = E
27% = I


They do consider R1b as SouthWest European haplogroup, that's why Spain has not so much of Asian admixture on dodecad. But according some people here is R1b not European at all, but from somewhere else.
I don't agree with this assumption! This doesn't make any sense! I truly believe that R1b is a native SouthWest European (Celtic) haplogroup!

According to me Spanish folks are the purest Celts in Europe!

But they're not INDO-European at all, only European!

 

[Knovas]

If R1b arrived much later haplogroups J and E would make even more impact in the Spanish autosomes since there is even more of hg. J and E in Spanish population.

In the Northeast there's sure more I2a1a* than J and E, wich is the likely place of origin. Most J is probably of Roman origin (that means VERY recent), while I guess the E has been almost totally replaced being surrounded by many peoples in the whole history. I think very back in time E peoples were very dominant in Galicia and close populations, but I2a1a and then R1b's as well as others, finally replaced it. But as haplogroup has survived quite good, that's true.

 

[Goga]

In the Northeast there's sure more I2a1a* than J and E, wich is the likely place of origin. Most J is probably of Roman origin (that means VERY recent), while I guess the E has been almost totally replaced being surrounded by many peoples in the whole history. I think very back in time E peoples were very dominant in Galicia and close populations, but I2a1a and then R1b's as well as others, finally replaced it. But as haplogroup has survived quite good, that's true.

Here is too much assumption with very much if if if if etc without any evidence.

I'll not repeat myself, just read my previous post (#91) again.

Btw, the very first Indo-Europeans were not European at all, but Eurasian at the first place...

 

[Knovas]

And again, as I said, no ancient R1b has been found in Europe (and I don't expect to find some of the modern clades in ancient samples). So, sorry, but for the moment your thoughts need some support, and the most important is absent.

 

[Goga]

And again, as I said, no ancient R1b has been found in Europe (and I don't expect to find some of the modern clades in ancient samples). So, sorry, but for the moment your thoughts need some support, and the most important is absent.

No the last English paper (study) supports my thoughts, many Western scientists think the same as I do and according to them Europeans are not INDO-European at all.

My believes are well founded (by others), while your thougts are very childish and contradict with each other.

What you're saying is very wild and crazy fantasy and science fiction. According to you hg. E & J* was first in Iberia, then got replaced by hg. 'I' and hg. 'I' got later replaced by R1b.

ARE YOU SERIOUS and FOR REAL !?

Buddy, you're wrong. You're not that SPECIAL one as you think you are!

 

[Goga]

With all due respect, but for me it's very difficult to discuss with someone who's in denial. I'm done with you!

 

[Knovas]

Guy, theres no point supporting J is ancient in Iberia, that's something you already invented. Romans had a lot of it, so it's very likely they were the ones who brought it (vast majority), that's what I SAID. You are the only one who believe in fantasies, and starts lying putting false words in my mouth. No need to say more, I have to go now.

Good night.

 

[zanipolo]

They speak the oldest language, that not means they must be genetically the oldest (at least, actual Basques). No way, think about it.

¿What are you saying about J and E? British also have a lot of R1b and surely it's what they mostly are autosomally speaking, and they have low extra-euro admixtures. Well, they show around 7% West Asian, while Spaniards don't. Don't know if this tells you something or not with such strange thoughts.

True what you say about basques, but apart from having one of the oldest languages in Spain, they also have the oldest Hg I in Spain

 

[Knovas]

The same old as the rest of Iberians, but according to the latest data, Aragonese have more than them. We are refering to I2a1a* in the vast majority of cases, that's the subclade both have.

¿Or you are refering to a very Paleolithic form of I found only in a measurable percent among them? I'd like to see the source if that's the case, although the dominant clade is the one I already mentioned. Don't know about the relevance of this.

 

[oreo_cookie]

Why does everything always go back to talking about Iberian genetics on all forums I visit? Is it that controversial of a topic?