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Religion Islam: Conceptions and misconceptions

Shaolin said:
Hello All,
If you want to seriously discuss Islam, or wish to learn more about Islam then please don't hesitate to join ummah.com/forum. The Comparative Religion section is the best for debates. :)
But thats all from me for now. Hope I've clarified some of the misconceptions regarding Islam.
Peace
.

Greetings there Shaolin san !! Welcome to the forum--and I apologize for putting it here, I'm behind in posting due to work these days.

I greatly appreciate the above post, and would suggest that we could do that here even. Only, I would take you up on your words, even if some others may not, to do so seriously.

I wouldn't suggest that it be in a debate format quite as nearly as it would be in an explorative discussion format (and whatever degree of debate it may have, would probably be better off with fuller explanation of points than what is sometimes seen in such discussions) but then again, I do realize that that is a rather hard to obtain, high hope.

Of course this would apply to all posting here, on all sides of the the several sided-table. I'll get back a little later on and ask some questions about some of the things you have posted, and some of the statements and claims to know that you have made.

Thank you for joining in on the discussion. Talk to you later !! :wave:
 
I dont understand why westerners are placing so much emphasis on this.
If you believe in freedom of speech then you should respect these womens
decisions. These women choose to wear the Jilbab/Hijab/Niqab, so there shoudnt really be any problem here.
Not quite correct. Many of them had no other choice, since they live in a country with such cultural stereotype and strong religious background of a society. They grew up learning that wouman must wear hijab. And even when they learned that in many countries even muslims don`t wear it, and even if they would like not to wear it, they can`t. This is the rule of the society anf they have to put up with it. Therefore many of them didnot choose, but accepted...
I`ve read notes of our travelers, in Iran, for example, they had to wear hijab.
We have russians who work in Iran and even at their place, where there are no local people, russian women must wear hijab while outside the house. Not much of a choice, ne?
I`ve been to Jordan, it has two religions, and many women don`t cover themselves, but wear european style clothing, i hardly can believe that they are wished to be harassed sexually, i also don`t think that they are intended to tease men, they just want to be comfortable.

Allah has placed a 'fitnah' (Temptation) in man's heart for women. Firstly, men are less able to control there desires. I think we can agree on that. Why else do you think its always men raping women?
"feeble" attempt to justify "the right of the strong". If woman could easily
squash man`s face or break his ribs, they hardly would dare to rape, and
certainly would discover that they are able to control themselves quite well.

IF you think that Muhammed wrote the Qur'an then write something like it (
in arabic). This is a direct challenge from the Quran. The people the time of the prophet didnt even try because they knew they couldn't do it. And no-one since has.
The style the Quran has been revealed in is like none other. It was totally
new to the arabs of that time. Alot of the people who accepted Islam back
then, didnt accept it because of the message but because of this unheard
style of poetry.
Had the companions/followers of Muhammed (saaws) found out he was lying,
they would have killed him straight away. How could an illiterate maintain
this consistancy over a period of 22 years? He didnt blunder once. Had he,
he would of been finished.
as far as i`ve read that was not Muhammed who wrote Koran. That were his
followers about 20 years after his death, before that it was oral tradition.
A bit later stories about Muhammed`d life appeared (who checked their 100%
validity?).
Don`t think that it`s much different from NT in that case.
Besides, vagueness of prophet`s speeches "inspired" people to write numerous comments (tafsir?). Where are guarantees that their interpretation is absolutely correct?
And about arabic... it was their native tongue, ne? It would be miraculous
if Koran would be written in Japanese, for example, but there is nothing
fascinating about being it in arabic

Islam is still the same. The sunni and shia disputes are purely political
and I wish they would banish these names and unite
and again not correct, the initial split could be caused by political problems (who is more rightful to inherit the power, you know) but since then 3 branches evolved with certain differencies which affected religious dogmas as well. Both sunni and shia include traditionalists and modernists

Islam doesnt advocate killing non-believers. Muslims are NOT aggressors.
it advocated when it was historically justifiable (sorry for being cynic, but
it happend with christianity as well). Hopefully, nowdays it is used this way only by fanatics. I also read that there are 2 forms of jihad - outer and inner. Outer is pure agression, inner is supposed to mean that individual is to perfect oneself and fight the evil within his own heart and mind. But this jihad seems to be often unnoticed by muslim and non-muslim
 
Please note this is a temp. stay on my behalf. I was invited here to deal with the misconceptions regarding Islam, hence I asked you to join ummah forums if you wish to engage in proper/further discussions.
_________________________________________________________________

bossel said:
Ah, but in the original it is said to be "smoothed out", not "spread out". All this blabber about spread, round & egg-shaped was extrapolation by the author.
Hello bossel,

Original? That was an interpretation on the tranlator's behalf. Dahaha has ALOT of meanings by the way.

015.019 And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable; and produced therein all kinds of things in due balance.
015.019 Wa(a)l-ar[d]a madadn[a]h[a] waalqayn[a] feeh[a] raw[a]siya waanbatn[a] feeh[a] min kulli shay-in mawzoon(in)

All the verse you cite as Flat earth are dealing with the Ard as in Land.

Dahaha has a LOT of other meanings by the way.

If we use the term 'smoothed out' it still has accuracy. Had the earth (land) been full of craters and ups and downs we humans would not have been avle to use it.

If you are looking for where the Qur;an says the EARTH (not the Land) is round then here is one such verse but the meaning is lost i nthe translation, look up the word YuKawwir in Lissan Al arab.

039.005 He created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): He makes the Night overlap the Day, and the Day overlap the Night: He has subjected the sun and the moon (to His law): Each one follows a course for a time appointed. Is not He the Exalted in Power - He Who forgives again and again?
039.005 Khalaqa a(l)ssam[a]w[a]ti wa(a)l-ar[d]a bi(a)l[h]aqqi yukawwiru allayla AAal[a] a(l)nnah[a]ri wayukawwiru a(l)nnah[a]ra AAal[a] allayli wasakhkhara a(l)shshamsa wa(a)lqamara kullun yajree li-ajalin musamman al[a] huwa alAAazeezu alghaff[a]r(u)

YuKawwir means to 'make round', to cause to be rounded.

Did they? & how prevalent was that view? Anyway, the argument is that the Earth as a globe was an advanced insight of the Koran, which it wasn't. It was nothing new at the time.
Well it WAS in the Bible so Ill let you work that out for yourself.

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. [Matthew 4:8]

Even if you go to the highest mountain in the world (everest), you will NOT be-able to see the other side of the world.

It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: [Isaiah 40:22]

That verse is pointing out that the Earth is CIRCLE, not spherical.


Sorry, but 1.5 or 2 billion believers is not "ALL" of mankind.
Not a fact, but a dogma. There is a difference.
Going for numbers? There are 4.8 b people who don't believe. How could they be wrong? There are 2 b Christians. How could they be fooled?
The Qur'an was intended for ALL of mankind unlike the other scriptures.

Yep, they 'were' fooled and NOW they've realised their 'dropping out'. Christianity is decreasing whereas Islam is the fastest growing relgion in the world. Dont believe me? Check the stats below:

Christianity..........2,039 million.........32% (dropping)
Islam.................1,226 million.........19% (growing)
Hinduism............828 million...........13% (stable)
No religion..........775 million...........12% (dropping)
Chinese folk........390 million...........6%
Buddhism...........364 million...........6% (stable)


Author Samuel Huntington predicts that Islam will overtake Christianity early in the 21st century. By the year 2025, Islam will have 5% more adherents than will Christianity.

The U.S. Center for World Mission estimated in 1997 that Christianity's total number of adherents is growing at about 2.3% annually. This is approximately equal to the growth rate of the world's population. Islam is growing faster: about 2.9% and is thus increasing its market share. At this rate, Islam would surpass Christianity as the world's main religion by 2023 CE.

Source

Nope. The oldest "complete" texts we have, in Istanbul & Tashkent, are from the 9th century. From older texts we only have fragments & these fragments show that there were alterations & mistaken transcriptions.
This is really amusing. Well I don't know where you 'get' this information from, but its the usual missionary tactics I come across when debating (especially with chritians) so Im not really suprised.
There was infact a BBC article released sometime ago about a Quran found which dated back to 19 years of the death of the prophet. You might want to search on that.

There is quite some sectarian killing going on among Muslims. Because it was so accurately worded?
Once agian, policatal. Nothing to do with the Quran or the way its been worded. It was originally to do with who should of been the Khiaph at the death of the prophet (saaws). Some said Ali (rA), and others said Abu Bakr Al Sidiqque.

Influence, power, women...
Incorrect. The arabians offered the prophet (saaws) the most beautiful women of arabia, they said they'll make him the king of the lands and so on. The prophet (saaws) said, that if you put the sun in my left hand and the moon in my right I will not stop preaching this message.
I really wish you would 'research' into this subject before making ignorant/baseless claims.

Nope. Obviously there are different opinions about that.
Then they don't need a headscarf, but a girdle around their loins?
This is funny coming from someone who doesn't know much, if not, anything about Islam. The are no differences amongst the madhabs. All ulema agree that these are the minimum requirements. It only 'individuals' who have a different agenda who say its ok.

Purely political? If you think so... But they are not the only Islamic sects. Islam has changed, else we would have the same structures in all Muslim cultures all over the world. We don't.
Remember, there are varying interpretations of the Koran.
Not think so, know so. It was a issue of who should have been the Khaliph at the death of the prophet.
Note that Islam constitutes of the Quran and sunnah which have remained the same throughout, so no change to Islam.
There are only two sects in reality, sunni and shia.

The different interpretations are a mercy on Allah's behalf. This is the very reason why the prophet (saaws) didnt interpretate the ENTIRE Quran, he left it our capacaties.
.
 
Tsuyoiko said:
It's good to see you here Shaolin - welcome to the forum!That proves nothing. People write things in new styles all the time. The challenge to write in Arabic is rather unfair, as most of us can't write Arabic. Even if the Quran is totally original, that doesn't prove Muhammed didn't write it. He might have been a genius. No-one has ever wrote anything remotely resembling Finnegans Wake, and I doubt they ever will. That doesn't make James Joyce a prophet.
Hello Tsuyoiko,

Thank you for your kind words.

This is a very large topic and since I had to respond to around adozen claims I was VERY brief on this topic. Firstly, we KNOW from the hadith the prophet's writing style which is totally different to that of the Quran. How could he produce two totally different styles?
Unfortunatly, it seems that no-one here knows arabic, othewise you would know what I mean. The challenge was set in arabic so I think it would be fair to write it in arabic. You wouldnt challenge Shakespeare's work in chinese now would you? :)

Here is a article below describing the 16 Bihar (literatly mean 'The seas') of arabic:

The Qur'an in many places challenges the people to produce a surah like it. It appears that the Christian missionaries who call the challenge irrelevent or an utterly subjective criterion are pretty much unaware of how the Arabic poetry and prose compares with the Qur'an. This article is devoted to deal with one aspect of the Qur'anic challenge of produce a surah like it. What is meant by surah like it with respect to the Arabic prose and poetry?
The verses of the Qur'an dealing with the challenge are given below (Hilali and Muhsin Khan's Translation):

Say: "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another." [Qur'an 17:88]

And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'an) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. [Qur'an 2:23]

And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation) which was before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah), and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.], and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws and orders, etc, decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt from the the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns,and all that exists).

Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it?" Say: "Bring then a surah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful!" [Qur'an 10:37-38]

Or they say, "He (Prophet Muhammad(P)) forged it (the Qur'an)." Say: "Bring you then ten forged surah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allah (to your help), if you speak the truth!" [Qur'an 11:13]

Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it (this Qur'an)?" Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'an) if they are truthful. [Qur'an 52:33-34]


cAbdur Rahim Green mentions that:

These are the sixteen al-Bihar (literally "The Seas", so called because of the way the poem moves, according to its rhythmic patterns): at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Wafir, al-Kamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafif, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madid, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab and as-Saria'. So the challenge is to produce in Arabic, three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook. Now I think at least the Christian's "Holy spirit" that makes you talk in tongues, part of your "Tri-Unity" of God should be able to inspire one of you with that!


To begin with; the Arabic language and Arab speech are divided into two branches. One of them is rhymed poetry. It is a speech with metre and rhyme, which means every line of it ends upon a definite letter, which is called the 'rhyme'. This rhymed poetry is again divided into metres or what is called as al-Bihar, literally meaning 'The Seas'. This is so called because of the way the poetry moves according to the rhythmic patterns. There are sixteen al-Bihar viz; at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Wafir, al-Kamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafif, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madid, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab and as-Saria'. Each one rhymes differently. For metres of Arabic poetry please see please see Lyall's book Translations Of Ancient Arabian Poetry, Chiefly Pre-Islamic.[1]He discusses al-Kamil, al-Wafir, al-Hajaz, at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Khafif and al-Madid briefly.[2]

The other branch of Arabic speech is prose, that is non-metrical speech. The prose may be a rhymed prose. Rhymed prose consists of cola ending on the same rhyme throughout, or of sentences rhymed in pairs. This is called "rhymed prose" or sajc. Prose may also be straight prose (mursal). In straight prose, the speech goes on and is not divided in cola, but is continued straight through without any divisions, either of rhyme or of anything else. Prose is employed in sermons and prayers and in speeches intended to encourage or frighten the masses.[3] One of the most famous speeches involving sajc is that of Hajjaj bin Yusuf in his first deputation in Iraq in post-Islamic and Quss bin Sa'idah in pre-Islamic times.

So, the challenge, as cAbdur Rahim Green mentions, is to produce in Arabic , three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen al-Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook. Indeed

The Qur'an is not verse, but it is rhythmic. The rhythm of some verses resemble the regularity of sajc, and both are rhymed, while some verses have a similarity to Rajaz in its vigour and rapidity. But it was recognized by Quraysh critics to belong to neither one nor the other category.[4]


It is interesting to know that all the pre-Islam and post-Islamic poetry collected by Louis Cheikho falls in the above sixteen metres or al-Bihar.[5] Indeed the pagans of Mecca repeated accuse Prophet Muhammad(P) for being a forger, a soothsayer etc. The Arabs who were at the pinnacle of their poetry and prose during the time of revelation of the Qur'an could not even produce the smallest surah of its like. The Qur'an's form did not fit into any of the above mentioned categories. It was this that made the Qur'an inimitable, and left the pagan Arabs at a loss as to how they might combat it as Alqama bin cAbd al-Manaf confirmed when he addressed their leaders, the Quraysh:

Oh Quraish, a new calamity has befallen you. Mohammed was a young man the most liked among you, most truthful in speech, and most trustworthy, until, when you saw gray hairs on his temple, and he brought you his message, you said that he was a sorcerer, but he is not, for we seen such people and their spitting and their knots; you said, a diviner, but we have seen such people and their behavior, and we have heard their rhymes; you said a soothsayer, but he is not a soothsayer, for we have heard their rhymes; and you said a poet, but he is not a poet, for we have heard all kinds of poetry; you said he was possessed, but he is not for we have seen the possessed, and he shows no signs of their gasping and whispering and delirium. Oh men of Quraish, look to your affairs, for by Allah a serious thing has befallen you.


It is a well known fact that the Qur'an was revealed in seven ahruf (or seven forms) to facilitate greater understanding of it among the Arabs who had different dialects. This was also to challenge them on their own grounds to produce a surah like that of the Qur'an. The challenge became more obvious when none of the seven major tribes could imitate it even in their own dialects as no one could claim that it was difficult to imitate due to it not being in their own dialect.[6]

What Do The Orientalists Say About The Inimitability Of The Qur'an?

E H Palmer, as early as 1880, recognized the unique style of the Qur'an. But he seem to have been wavering between two thoughts. He writes in the Introduction to his translation of the Qur'an:

That the best of Arab writers has never succeeded in producing anything equal in merit to the Qur'an itself is not surprising. In the first place, they have agreed before-hand that it is unapproachable, and they have adopted its style as the perfect standard; any deviation from it therefore must of necessity be a defect. Again, with them this style is not spontaneous as with Muhammad and his contemporaries, but is as artificial as though Englishmen should still continue to follow Chaucer as their model, in spite of the changes which their language has undergone. With the Prophet, the style was natural, and the words were those in every-day ordinary life, while with the later Arabic authors the style is imitative and the ancient words are introduced as a literary embellishment. The natural consequence is that their attempts look laboured and unreal by the side of his impromptu and forcible eloquence.[7]


The famous Arabist from University of Oxford, Hamilton Gibb was open upon about the style of the Qur'an. In his words:

...the Meccans still demanded of him a miracle, and with remarkable boldness and self confidence Mohammad appealed as a supreme confirmation of his mission to the Koran itself. Like all Arabs they were the connoisseurs of language and rhetoric. Well, then if the Koran were his own composition other men could rival it. Let them produce ten verses like it. If they could not (and it is obvious that they could not), then let them accept the Koran as an outstanding evident miracle.[8]


And in some other place, talking about the Prophet(P) and the Qur'an, he states:

Though, to be sure, the question of the literary merit is one not to be judged on a priori grounds but in relation to the genius of Arabic language; and no man in fifteen hundred years has ever played on that deep-toned instrument with such power, such boldness, and such range of emotional effect as Mohammad did.[9]

As a literary monument the Koran thus stands by itself, a production unique to the Arabic literature, having neither forerunners nor successors in its own idiom. Muslims of all ages are united in proclaiming the inimitability not only of its contents but also of its style..... and in forcing the High Arabic idiom into the expression of new ranges of thought the Koran develops a bold and strikingly effective rhetorical prose in which all the resources of syntactical modulation are exploited with great freedom and originality.[10]


On the influence of the Qur'an on Arabic literature Gibb says:

The influence of the Koran on the development of Arabic Literature has been incalculable, and exerted in many directions. Its ideas, its language, its rhymes pervade all subsequent literary works in greater or lesser measure. Its specific linguistic features were not emulated, either in the chancery prose of the next century or in the later prose writings, but it was at least partly due to the flexibility imparted by the Koran to the High Arabic idiom that the former could be so rapidly developed and adjusted to the new needs of the imperial government and an expanding society.[11]


As the Qur'an itself says:

And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith. (Qur'an 2:23-24)


Lastly, the beautiful style of the Qur'an is admired even by the Arab Christians:

The Quran is one of the world's classics which cannot be translated without grave loss. It has a rhythm of peculiar beauty and a cadence that charms the ear. Many Christian Arabs speak of its style with warm admiration, and most Arabists acknowledge its excellence. When it is read aloud or recited it has an almost hypnotic effect that makes the listener indifferent to its sometimes strange syntax and its sometimes, to us, repellent content. It is this quality it possesses of silencing criticism by the sweet music of its language that has given birth to the dogma of its inimitability; indeed it may be affirmed that within the literature of the Arabs, wide and fecund as it is both in poetry and in elevated prose, there is nothing to compare with it.[12]


The above sentences speak of themselves. Summing up: Within the Arabic literature, either poetry or prose, there is nothing comparable to the Qur'an. Muslims throughout the centuries are united upon the its inimitability.

There is also a talk by Christian missionaries that there are grammatical 'errors' in the Qur'an. In retort, it can be mentioned that the Arab contemporaries of Muhammad(P) were most erudite and proficient in the idiosyncrasies of Arabic speech; and hence, if they had found any grammatical 'errors' in the Qur'an, they would have revealed it when Muhammad(P) challenged them with to do so. Therefore, since they did not take up his challenge on this issue, we can be rest assured that no such grammatical 'errors' exist in the Qur'an.

Indeed the grammatical errors claimed by Christian missionaries have been already discussed and refuted in a reputed journal.[13] It turns out that lack of knowledge of intricate constructions in classical Arabic by Christian missionaries gave rise to so-called grammatical 'errors'.

I'jaz al-Qur'an (Or Inimitability Of The Qur'an) & Its Exposition

I'jaz literally means "the rendering incapable, powerless". It is the concept relating to the miraculous nature of the Qur'an. What consitutes this miracle is a subject that has engaged Muslims scholars for centuries. By the early part of the third century AH (ninth century CE), the word i'jaz had come to mean that quality of the Qur'an that rendered people incapable of imitating the book or any part; in content and form. By the latter part of that century, the word had become the technical term, and the numerous definitions applied to it after the tenth century have shown little divergence from the key concepts of the inimitability of the Qur'an and the inability of human beings to match it even challenged (tahiddi).[14]

Thus, the Islamic doctrine of i'jaz al-Qur'an consists in the belief that the Qur'an is a miracle (mu'jizah) bestowed on Muhammad(P). Both terms, i'jaz and mu'jizah come from the same verbal root. While mu'jizah is the active principle of a'jaza, i'jaz is its verbal noun.[15]

The early theological discussions on i'jaz introduced the hypothesis of sarfah ("turning away") and argued that the miracle consisted of God's turning the competent away from taking up the challenge of imitating the Qur'an. The implication of sarfah is that the Qur'an otherwise could be imitated. However, cAbd al-Jabbar (d. 1025 CE), the Mu'tazilite theologian rejected sarfah because of its obvious weaknesses.

cAbd al-Jabbar rejects the doctrine of sarfah for two main reasons. Firstly, because it contradicts the verse of the Qur'an stating that neither jinn nor human can rival the Qur'an, and secondly because it makes a miracle of something other than the Qur'an, i.e., the sarfah, the prohibition from production, and not the Qur'an itself. In addition to this, according to 'Abd al-Jabbar, the doctrine of sarfah displays four major weaknesses:



It ignores the well-known fact that the Arabs of Muhammad's time had acknowledged the superior quality of speech of the Qur'an;

It is in direct conflict with the meaning of the verses of the Challenge;

It implies that the Qur'an is not a miracle; and

It asserts that the Arabs were out of their minds (khuruj 'an al-'aql).
This doctrine, in fact, implies that they could have produced a rival to the Qur'an, but simply decided against doing so. It effectively calls into question either their motives or their sanity. Therefore, according to cAbd al-Jabbar the correct interpretation of sarfah is that the motives to rival the Qur'an disappeared (insarafah) because of the recognition of the impossibility of doing so.[16]


cAbd al-Jabbar insisted on the unmatchable quality of the Qur'an's extra-ordinary eloquence and unique stylist perfection. In his work al-Mughni (The Sufficient Book), he argued that eloquence (fasahah) resulted from the excellence of both meaning and wording, and he explained that there were degrees of excellence depending on the manner in which words were chosen and arranged in any literary text, the Qur'an being the highest type.[17]

al-Baqillani (d. 1013 CE), in his systematic and comprehensive study entitled I'jaz al-Qur'an upheld the rhetorically unsurpassable style of the Qur'an, but he did not consider this to be a necessary argument in the favour of the Qur'an's uniqueness and emphasized instead the content of revelation.

The choice and arrangement of words, referred to as nazm was the focus of discussion by al-Jahiz, al-Sijistani (d. 928 CE), al-Bakhi (d. 933 CE) and Ibn al-Ikhshid (d. 937 CE). al-Rummani and his contemporary al-Khattabi (d. 998 CE) discussed the psychological effect of nazm of the Qur'an in their al-Nukat fi I'jaz al-Qur'an and Bayan I'jaz al-Qur'an, respectively.

The author who best elaborated and systematized the theory of nazm in his analysis of the i'jaz is cAbd al-Qahir al-Jurjani (d. 1078 CE) in his Dala'il al-I'jaz. His material was further organized by Fakhr ad-Din al-Razi (d. 1209) in his Nihayat al-I'jaz fi Dirayat al-I'jaz and put to practical purposes by al-Zamakhshari (d. 1144 CE) in his exegesis of the Qur'an entitled al-Kashasaf, rich in rhetorical analysis of the Qur'anic style.[18]

Hardly anything new has been added by later authors.

Is The Bible Inimitable?

Anyone who has read the history of the Bible as a text as well as the constantly changing canon at the whims of the leaders of the Church and some 300,000+ variant readings in the New Testament itself would suggest that no book in history enjoyed such as reputation. The process of serious editing through which the Christian Bible went through is unparalleled in its almost 2000 year history. This would itself make the Bible an inimitable book.

As far as the language of the Bible and its stylistic perfection is concerned, the Bible does not make any such claim. Therefore, it not does challenge the mankind of produce a few verses or a chapter like it. Further, it is a Christian claim that the Bible contains scribal and linguistic errors. The language in which the Greek New Testament was written is demotic Greek which itself has little or no regard for grammatical rules of classical Greek. Comparing the stylistic perfection of the Qur'an versus stylistic imperfection of the Bible, von Grunebaum states:

In contrast to the stylistic perfection of the Kur'an with the stylistic imperfections of the older Scriptures the Muslim theologian found himself unknowingly and on purely postulative grounds in agreement with long line of Christian thinkers whose outlook on the Biblical text is best summed up in Nietzsche's brash dictum that the Holy Ghost wrote bad Greek.[19]


Futher, he elaborates the position of Western theologians on the canonization process and composition of the Bible:

The knowledge of the Western theologian that the Biblical books were redacted by different writers and that they were, in many cases, accessible to him only in (inspired) translation facilitated admission of formal imperfections in Scripture and there with lessened the compulsive insistence on its stylistic authority. Christian teaching, leaving the inspired writer, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, free in matters of style, has provided no motivation to seek an exact correlation between the revealed text on the one hand and grammar and rhetoric on the other. It thereby relieved the theologian and the critic from searching for a harmony between two stylistic worlds, which at best would yield an ahistoric concept of literary perfection and at worst would prevent anything resembling textual and substantive criticism of Revelation....

In Christianity, besides, the apology for the "low" style of the Bible is merely a part of educational problem - what to do with secular erudition within Christianity; whereas in Islam, the central position of the Kur'an, as the focal point and justification of grammatical and literary studies, was theoretically at least, never contested within the believing community.[20]


That pretty much sums up the Bible, its stylistic perfection (or the lack of it!) and the position of Western theologians.
 
Mycernius said:
You seem to be the one who is ignorant of your own faiths roots. I have pointed out elsewhere on this thread Allah is a pre-islamic diety. He is from a polythesistic pantheon and was taken by Mohammad as the one true God. Djinns are from pre-islamic myth. The flood is from Mesopotamian myth, which was incorporated ito Jewish and Christian myth and finally Islamic myth. He either wrote the Quran or dictated it from what he knew of other myths, but I do not believe that it was revealed to him by an angel. If so then Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormons, has a better version of God words as the Book of Mormon was revealed to him by an angel in the 19th century.
Hello Mycernius,

I couldn't help but smile at your response. Read response #84 and then respond.

These are typicalmissionary tactics. I will do alittle bit more research into this topic InshAllah. But for now you can read this article which addresses your 'claim'.

Anyway, how could Muhammed (saaws) pick the correct Bibical beliefs and reject the incorrect ones? Not only that BUT correct them in a period of 22 years, which 10 of thousands of bibical scholars haven't been able to do for the last 2000 years?

The fact that there are similarities in the prior scriptures and the Quran doesn't show forging, BUT consistancy in the word of God.
.
 
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Mars Man said:
Greetings there Shaolin san !! Welcome to the forum--and I apologize for putting it here, I'm behind in posting due to work these days.
I greatly appreciate the above post, and would suggest that we could do that here even. Only, I would take you up on your words, even if some others may not, to do so seriously.
I wouldn't suggest that it be in a debate format quite as nearly as it would be in an explorative discussion format (and whatever degree of debate it may have, would probably be better off with fuller explanation of points than what is sometimes seen in such discussions) but then again, I do realize that that is a rather hard to obtain, high hope.
Of course this would apply to all posting here, on all sides of the the several sided-table. I'll get back a little later on and ask some questions about some of the things you have posted, and some of the statements and claims to know that you have made.
Thank you for joining in on the discussion. Talk to you later !! :wave:
Hello Mars Man,

Thank you for your kind words. :)

The reason I made that post was because I have no intention saying here. I came here through another website just to address these posts.

Looking forward to hearing from you. :)
 
Void said:
Not quite correct. Many of them had no other choice, since they live in a country with such cultural stereotype and strong religious background of a society. They grew up learning that wouman must wear hijab. And even when they learned that in many countries even muslims don`t wear it, and even if they would like not to wear it, they can`t. This is the rule of the society anf they have to put up with it. Therefore many of them didnot choose, but accepted...
I`ve read notes of our travelers, in Iran, for example, they had to wear hijab.
We have russians who work in Iran and even at their place, where there are no local people, russian women must wear hijab while outside the house. Not much of a choice, ne?
I`ve been to Jordan, it has two religions, and many women don`t cover themselves, but wear european style clothing, i hardly can believe that they are wished to be harassed sexually, i also don`t think that they are intended to tease men, they just want to be comfortable.
Hello Void,

My emphasis was on the west. IF a woman chooses to wear a hijab then it shouldn't really be a problem. Even if they didnt want to wear it they would most probably take it off in the absense of their parents/family.
I don't agree with forcing, but whats wrong with encouraging alittle modesty?

I wouldn't say 'forced'. IF its the norm then people well really just accept it as the standard. Secondly, in middle eastern countries it gets VERY hot and most people cannot see because the light is so bright, so men usually wrap scarfs around their faces and women wear the niqab.

If you look at the west, women are constantly intimidated by models/stars etc, and bombared on what to wear, how to look etc.. You find teenage girls and women going to extremes just to look 'beautiful', 'slim' and so on. No-one can really be themselves anymore. You have to 'look the part', or else you won't make the 'hit'. In Islam, its the contrary. Muslims are told to forget the exterior, but to focus on their innerselves.
This the first I've heard of this. If the russian women MUST wear hijab then what about the american women? I've seen plenty women on the news in Iraq (westerners) not wearing a hijab.

as far as i`ve read that was not Muhammed who wrote Koran. That were his
followers about 20 years after his death, before that it was oral tradition.
A bit later stories about Muhammed`d life appeared (who checked their 100%
validity?).
Don`t think that it`s much different from NT in that case.
Besides, vagueness of prophet`s speeches "inspired" people to write numerous comments (tafsir?). Where are guarantees that their interpretation is absolutely correct?
And about arabic... it was their native tongue, ne? It would be miraculous
if Koran would be written in Japanese, for example, but there is nothing
fascinating about being it in arabic
This is incorrect. As soon as Muhammed (saaws) had a revelation he would automatically order his scribes to write it down, and then he would verify it. The ACTUAL Qur'an was written and verified in the time of the prophet (saaws). The Mus-Haf (Binding of the Quran into one book) was done after the death of the prophet (saaws).

Vagueness of the Prophet's (saaws) speech? The only sayings of the prophet's (saaws) we have are the hadith. These went through vigorous verification. Thevalidhadeeth are classified as 'Saheeh Hadith'.
Tafsir is just commentary of the Qur'an, nothing more. Its used to give the reader a better understanding of each verse.

And about arabic... it was their native tongue, ne? It would be miraculous
if Koran would be written in Japanese, for example, but there is nothing
fascinating about being it in arabic
I've addressed this in response to another user. Refer to post #84 for the article. This is ofcourse only one approach to this subject. There are many other ways. :)

and again not correct, the initial split could be caused by political problems (who is more rightful to inherit the power, you know) but since then 3 branches evolved with certain differencies which affected religious dogmas as well. Both sunni and shia include traditionalists and modernists
it advocated when it was historically justifiable (sorry for being cynic, but
it happend with christianity as well). Hopefully, nowdays it is used this way only by fanatics. I also read that there are 2 forms of jihad - outer and inner. Outer is pure agression, inner is supposed to mean that individual is to perfect oneself and fight the evil within his own heart and mind. But this jihad seems to be often unnoticed by muslim and non-muslim
Islam is the Quran and sunnah. These two things have remained the same, hence Islam is still the same. Its the muslims who are having differences amongst eachother.

The inner-Jihad is noticed amongst muslims and is classified as much higher and much more difficult compared to the battlefield Jihad, but the media don't take much notice in it. Islam doesn't encourage violence, only self-defense. But if a individual decides to attack others then you can't really blame the religion for that. Its more down to the individual.
.
 
Shaolin said:
Original? That was an interpretation on the tranlator's behalf. Dahaha has ALOT of meanings by the way.
Read what I wrote: "in the original it is said to be". I was talking about what the writer from Harunblabla said. If you disagree with their interpretation of the Koran, talk to Harun...

015.019 And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet);
I haven't seen many people spreading out their carpets as a globe.

All the verse you cite as Flat earth are dealing with the Ard as in Land.
I don't think I cited (at least in the recent discussion) something to show flat Earth ideas in the Koran, though they obviously are there. What I specifically said was: "the argument is that the Earth as a globe was an advanced insight of the Koran, which it wasn't. It was nothing new at the time."
& that's a simple fact: the shape of the Earth was old news when the Koran got written.

Well it WAS in the Bible so Ill let you work that out for yourself.
It still is, just like in the Koran. At the same time you have Bible thumpers (just like you have similar Koran thumpers) who will tell you that this or that Bible quote definitely means that the Earth is a globe. (As if you needed a holy book to find that out.)

The Qur'an was intended for ALL of mankind unlike the other scriptures.
You forgot the last part of what you wrote & what I quoted: "Originally Posted by Shaolin ... the Qur'an has completed its task."
Funny, isn't it?

Yep, they 'were' fooled and NOW they've realised their 'dropping out'. Christianity is decreasing whereas Islam is the fastest growing relgion in the world. Dont believe me?
Nope, I don't care. It was your argument that a certain number of believers makes something true (which is obviously non-sense). Even if one accepts your assumption, the actual numbers simply do not support your position.

BTW, numbers. I have a slightly different list:

# Christianity: 2.1 billion
# Islam: 1.3 billion
# Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
# Hinduism: 900 million
# Chinese traditional religion: 394 million

The U.S. Center for World Mission estimated in 1997 that Christianity's total number of adherents is growing at about 2.3% annually. This is approximately equal to the growth rate of the world's population. Islam is growing faster: about 2.9% and is thus increasing its market share. At this rate, Islam would surpass Christianity as the world's main religion by 2023 CE.
Taking your numbers & the above growth rates, starting point 1996, Christianity would have ~ 3.8b adherents in 2023, while Islam would have ~ 2.7b. Surpass?

This is really amusing. Well I don't know where you 'get' this information from, but its the usual missionary tactics I come across when debating (especially with chritians) so Im not really suprised.
Not really amused & not really surprised. I could give you some Geman sources if you understand it, but for a start I recommend Wikipedia. & don't worry, I'm no missionary.

There was infact a BBC article released sometime ago about a Quran found which dated back to 19 years of the death of the prophet. You might want to search on that.
Nothing found. How about a link?

It was originally to do with who should of been the Khiaph at the death of the prophet (saaws).
Not only that, but also about the leader's religious role. Anyway, I wasn't only speaking about the Sunni-Shia problem, but about other sects as well. You seem to conveniently ignore them.

Incorrect.
Nope, correct.
I really wish you would stick to the argument.
bossel said:
Shaolin said:
Tell me, what would he gain from starting a new religion?
Influence, power, women...
& that's exactly what he gained.

This is funny coming from someone who doesn't know much, if not, anything about Islam. The are no differences amongst the madhabs.
Liar. There are differences, although minor.
Anyway, you again leave the original argument. I was not talking about Madhhabs or Ulema, but interpretations of the Koran. Fundamentalists do not have a monopoly on interpreting holy books.

It only 'individuals' who have a different agenda who say its ok.
Believe it, or not, but a religion is made up of individuals.

Not think so, know so.
Common misconception among religious people: Mistaking belief for knowledge.

Note that Islam constitutes of the Quran and sunnah which have remained the same throughout, so no change to Islam.
Wrong. Islam is a religion. A religion without people is dead. The Koran without people who believe in it is just a stack of paper.

There are only two sects in reality, sunni and shia.
Probably your very own reality, then. (BTW, if it is only a political split, why do you consider these 2 to be sects?)
Sufi, Ibadites, Alavites, Druze a.s.o. probably don't count...:okashii:
 
Yep, I have to agree with Bossel above.

However, I did not know we were allowed to flat out call people "liars" when we wanted to. I thought that was a little harsh.
 
Shaolin said:
Hello Mars Man,
Thank you for your kind words. :)
The reason I made that post was because I have no intention saying here. I came here through another website just to address these posts.
Looking forward to hearing from you. :)

Well, Shaolin san, I had wanted to get some information on the subject I had brought up much earlier, but noticed that rather than discussion, it has very much turned into a thread of bickering--almost all touches of academical mindedness have been left out. I may be able to gain greater and deeper knowledge from either PMing you, or . . .

Of course I do agree with some of the points that bossel has made, while yet admitting that I'd like to see deeper source material and data on others. At the same time, it looks to me, for the moment, at least, that some things you have said have not been thought about enough by others, in some ways, such as the literary style of the Quran's Arabic--or your points could have been a little better developed without any need to rush to the next point. (far too much rushing here, IMCO)

Bossel, for being an Advisor, especially, you went to far on that a little bit. To show that Shaolin had actually lied, you will have to show that that poster had known the fact and then in that state of knowing so, had said that such had not been so.

The point Ma chan had made about the lack of emotional control is proven right again; unfortunately.:souka:
 
Shaolin said:
Hello Mycernius,
I couldn't help but smile at your response. Read response #84 and then respond.
These are typicalmissionary tactics. I will do alittle bit more research into this topic InshAllah. But for now you can read this article which addresses your 'claim'.
Anyway, how could Muhammed (saaws) pick the correct Bibical beliefs and reject the incorrect ones? Not only that BUT correct them in a period of 22 years, which 10 of thousands of bibical scholars haven't been able to do for the last 2000 years?
The fact that there are similarities in the prior scriptures and the Quran doesn't show forging, BUT consistancy in the word of God.
.
I am not a missionary, I am an atheist, which, for your information, is a growing movement, especially within Europe. The article is quite amusing and you can tell it was written by a man not wishing to see history, but distort it. Allah might have been a creator God, but he was part of a polytheistic religion, and you cannot escape that fact, no matter how people try to dress it up. He had three daughter called Allat, an astral goddess invoked as a domestic guardian and linked with Athene by the greeks; Manat, a goddess linked with fate and al-Uzza, patron goddess of Mecca and linked with Venus.
Allah, hinself might be a supreme creator God, but in that respect he is no different from Amun-Re.
On the Quran, historically it is known that Muhammad altered texts as he grew older and the passing of the original was oral, not written. As the game chinese whispers shows oral passing of stories, fables and history distorts as it gets passed around. The quran suffers the same problem as the Bible, it is a highly biased book with a collection of religious dogma, subjective history and older pre-islamic stories in it. To use it as a tool for an objective discussion leaves it open for debate on its shortcomings
 
Mycernius said:
I am not a missionary, I am an atheist, which, for your information, is a growing movement, especially within Europe. The article is quite amusing and you can tell it was written by a man not wishing to see history, but distort it. Allah might have been a creator God, but he was part of a polytheistic religion, and you cannot escape that fact, no matter how people try to dress it up. He had three daughter called Allat, an astral goddess invoked as a domestic guardian and linked with Athene by the greeks; Manat, a goddess linked with fate and al-Uzza, patron goddess of Mecca and linked with Venus.
Allah, hinself might be a supreme creator God, but in that respect he is no different from Amun-Re.
On the Quran, historically it is known that Muhammad altered texts as he grew older and the passing of the original was oral, not written. As the game chinese whispers shows oral passing of stories, fables and history distorts as it gets passed around. The quran suffers the same problem as the Bible, it is a highly biased book with a collection of religious dogma, subjective history and older pre-islamic stories in it. To use it as a tool for an objective discussion leaves it open for debate on its shortcomings
Mycernius,

Your not, but the arguments your using are.

Although this is the usual assortment of chidlish and unlearned nonsense, you will need to back up your posts with references.
Just a word of advice, nothing you said above is new and almost all unlearned self-declared intellectuals have used this sillyness. Their target audience is usually at their same level of IQ and ignorance.
History, facts, the Qur'an and other literature all refute the above sillyness and it is too laborious to keep refuting them, but if you come up with a reference for this nonsense, I might just take the time to 'politely' make joke of those claims. :)
 
Mars Man said:
almost all touches of academical mindedness have been left out.
You most probably won't be able to lead an academical discussion with Shaolin, anyway. He's just spraying propaganda around. Just look at his last remark to Mycernius:
"if you come up with a reference for this nonsense, I might just take the time to 'politely' make joke of those claims."
I suppose that says it all.

your points could have been a little better developed without any need to rush to the next point. (far too much rushing here, IMCO)
Obviously. But I'm spending too much time on this, anyway. & Shaolin's propaganda is really not worth the effort, IMO.

Bossel, for being an Advisor, especially, you went to far on that a little bit. To show that Shaolin had actually lied, you will have to show that that poster had known the fact and then in that state of knowing so, had said that such had not been so.
Actually, the point in question was just a little lie, but it was the virtual last straw...
Shaolin constantly uses deception (& outright lies) to make his points & at some point, it's enough. Contrary to Eeman, whom I see as a simple believer (the deceived, if you want), Shaolin is a mere propagandist (one of the deceivers). If Shaolin is as knowledgeable as he wants us to believe, he would know that his "facts" are far from true.
 
Shaolin said:
Firstly, we KNOW from the hadith the prophet's writing style which is totally different to that of the Quran. How could he produce two totally different styles?
Mohammed had a writing style? I thought he was supposed to be illiterate?

Also, could you provide a link or at least a reference for the article you copied and pasted into post #84? Thanks!
Shaolin said:
These are typicalmissionary tactics.
As Mycernius and Bossel have mentioned, that accusation is well off. AFAIK, everyone contributing at the moment is either an atheist or an agnostic. There are certainly no missionaries here! Also, to have 'tactics' someone must have an agenda. There's no agenda in the posts of Mycernius, Mars Man, Bossel, Void or myself - just a healthy scepticism and an honest search for truth. Your posts, on the other hand, suggest that you have an agenda to promote Islam and that you have no sincere wish to consider any criticism honestly - you wish only to dismiss them out-of-hand. This 'tactic' will do nothing to dispel any misconceptions about Islam that anyone reading this thread might have.
 
bossel said:
I haven't seen many people spreading out their carpets as a globe.
Bossel,

You don't need to 'see' someone spread a carpet in order to 'prove' that it is possible.

I don't think I cited (at least in the recent discussion) something to show flat Earth ideas in the Koran, though they obviously are there. What I specifically said was: "the argument is that the Earth as a globe was an advanced insight of the Koran, which it wasn't. It was nothing new at the time."
& that's a simple fact: the shape of the Earth was old news when the Koran got written.
Point to me the verses in the Quran which state the earth is flat. Since they are 'so obvious' it shouldn't be a problem.

1. The earth was considered flat at around the first century. Then believed to be round, then spherical, then round, then flat and so on. So the idea was constantly shifting which showed signs of uncertainty. The Qur'an directed stated that the world IS spherical (no uncertainty).

2. Greeks also believed the earth to be the 'centre of the universe'. This shows that they were merely taking guesses. Once again, no certainty.

It still is, just like in the Koran. At the same time you have Bible thumpers (just like you have similar Koran thumpers) who will tell you that this or that Bible quote definitely means that the Earth is a globe. (As if you needed a holy book to find that out.)
Once again, point to me the verses directly which state the 'world is flat'.

You forgot the last part of what you wrote & what I quoted: "Originally Posted by Shaolin ... the Qur'an has completed its task."
Funny, isn't it?
Your obviously firing blanks. Let me re-quote the text for you, which your 'selective eyes' have seemed to missed:
Shaolin said:
The Quran was sent for ALL of mankind, as a guidence. The fact that there are different interpretations of Qur'an ISNT a weakness but actually shows that the Qur'an has completed its task.
I was addressing the 'different interpretation' issue.


Nope, I don't care. It was your argument that a certain number of believers makes something true (which is obviously non-sense). Even if one accepts your assumption, the actual numbers simply do not support your position.
BTW, numbers. I have a slightly different list:
# Christianity: 2.1 billion
# Islam: 1.3 billion
# Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
# Hinduism: 900 million
# Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
Taking your numbers & the above growth rates, starting point 1996, Christianity would have ~ 3.8b adherents in 2023, while Islam would have ~ 2.7b. Surpass?
Does the truth hurt? It must do for you 'not to care' . Though you TOTALLY missed the point. Why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the world? And the contrary for christianity?

Not really amused & not really surprised. I could give you some Geman sources if you understand it, but for a start I recommend Wikipedia. & don't worry, I'm no missionary.
The back-Ally priest isn't a good source for information. I'm sure there ARE plenty english sources especially if this is established, no?
You shouldn't believe everything you read on Wikipedia. Its got quite alot of Islamic History wrong. Anyway, 'I recommend some good Islamic books'.
Ofcourse, your not a missionary, but these are missionary arguments if you didn't know already.

Nothing found. How about a link?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4581684.stm
They have got the terminology wrong. This is the Mus-Haf.

Not only that, but also about the leader's religious role. Anyway, I wasn't only speaking about the Sunni-Shia problem, but about other sects as well. You seem to conveniently ignore them.
The offshoots are still within one of the two sects. Some of the offshoots are no longer muslims for various reasons.

Bossel said:
Nope, correct.
I really wish you would stick to the argument.
bossel said:
Shaolin said:
Tell me, what would he gain from starting a new religion?
Influence, power, women...
& that's exactly what he gained.
Did you somehow 'miss' my refute to your response again. Let me re-quote it for you, and this time I'll highlight it red so you won't miss it:
Shaolin said:
Incorrect. The arabians offered the prophet (saaws) the most beautiful women of arabia, they said they'll make him the king of the lands and so on. The prophet (saaws) said, that if you put the sun in my left hand and the moon in my right I will not stop preaching this message.
I really wish you would 'research' into this subject before making ignorant/baseless claims.
When HE died, he was in debt. Secondly, he lead a life of CONSTANT suffering, pain, hardships when he started preaching Islam. Third, wouldn't he of stopped preaching the message the first instance of hardship ? Fourth, why did he reject ALL the power/women the arabians were offering him when he first started preaching Islam?

You should take your own advice and 'stick' to the argument. :)

Liar. There are differences, although minor.
Anyway, you again leave the original argument. I was not talking about Madhhabs or Ulema, but interpretations of the Koran.Fundamentalists do not have a monopoly on interpreting holy books.
I just had to laugh at the sillyness of this post. You OBVIOUSLY don't know what your talking about. Ulema ARE the people who interpretate the Qur'an, and the Madhabs consitute of these ulema who derive the ahkams/fatwas (rulings).
BUT, since your so certain (without a shadow of doubt) that there are differences on the fundamentals, then please refer me to fiqh books (not weblinks), and Fuqaha who say so otherwise.

Believe it, or not, but a religion is made up of individuals. A religion without people is dead. The Koran without people who believe in it is just a stack of paper.
Talk about the obvious. For a religion to exist there must be some sort of holybook, no? How else are the followers going to follow if they have nothing to follow ? :)

Probably your very own reality, then. (BTW, if it is only a political split, why do you consider these 2 to be sects?)
Sufi, Ibadites, Alavites, Druze a.s.o. probably don't count...:okashii:
Sufism is a essential part of Islam, and is not a sect. Any offshoot which rejects the fundamentals of Islam is automatically out of the fold of Islam. This requires some background knowledge which you don't have.
.
 
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Tsuyoiko said:
Mohammed had a writing style? I thought he was supposed to be illiterate?
Also, could you provide a link or at least a reference for the article you copied and pasted into post #84? Thanks!
Hello Tsu,

Sorry it was a typo. We know the style of Muhammed (saaws) i.e. the way he spoke, and from the Ahadiths we have.

As Mycernius and Bossel have mentioned, that accusation is well off. AFAIK, everyone contributing at the moment is either an atheist or an agnostic. There are certainly no missionaries here! Also, to have 'tactics' someone must have an agenda. There's no agenda in the posts of Mycernius, Mars Man, Bossel, Void or myself - just a healthy scepticism and an honest search for truth. Your posts, on the other hand, suggest that you have an agenda to promote Islam and that you have no sincere wish to consider any criticism honestly - you wish only to dismiss them out-of-hand. This 'tactic' will do nothing to dispel any misconceptions about Islam that anyone reading this thread might have.
Though they may not be missionaries they are using missionary arguments.
The argument Mycernius is using regarding the Allah pre-Islamic God was made up by christian missionaries. They believe that the God of the Qur'an is not the God of the Bible, hence according to them we are worshippinga polytheistic god.
This is ofcourse untrue and it has be refuted many times.

Your posts, on the other hand, suggest that you have an agenda to promote Islam and that you have no sincere wish to consider any criticism honestly - you wish only to dismiss them out-of-hand.
You need to re-analyse your statements.
1. I have used valid arguments to refute peoples claims, and when they run out of things to say they start slandering me, and 'twisting' my words. Now, you tell me who has 'no sincere intention to consider any criticisms'.
2. My intention is to clarify the misconceptions regarding Islam, and I stated that in prior posts. All I have done is refute peoples claims, I have not come to 'promote Islam'. There's a difference.
Others on this thread have an 'agenda' to denounce Islam.
.
 
Shaolin said:
Though they may not be missionaries they are using missionary arguments.
The argument Mycernius is using regarding the Allah pre-Islamic God was made up by christian missionaries. They believe that the God of the Qur'an is not the God of the Bible, hence according to them we are worshippinga polytheistic god.
I think you are completely missing the point on Allah. The NAME Allah comes from a pre-Islamic diety. All Mohammad did was identify Allah with Yhwh. The same way Isis was identified by early Christians with Mary, Zeus with Jupiter, Allat with Athene. It is a constant within religions to follow this pattern. You want objective sources? Encyclopeadia Mythica, an online source for various myths, An Encyclopedia of Gods by Micahel Jordan, ISBN 1-85626-636-2 should do you for now. I, BTW, regard all religions as myths. Mohammad re-writting the Quran as he got older - from the intro of my copy of the Quran, but if that is not good enough for you....
They believe that the God of the Qur'an is not the God of the Bible, hence according to them we are worshippinga polytheistic god.
Yhwh is also from a polythestic origin that became monothestic. It is from a polythestic background. Through Mohammad and other prophets it gained prominance and finally became a monothestic Godhead.
Anyway, how could Muhammed (saaws) pick the correct Bibical beliefs and reject the incorrect ones? Not only that BUT correct them in a period of 22 years, which 10 of thousands of bibical scholars haven't been able to do for the last 2000 years?
It is called editing. Choosing the ones that he thought best suited his purposes. Newspaper editors do it everyday.:-) BTW how do you know that they are the correct ones? By your very subjective view they are, but for millions of other people they are not.
I do not have an agenda to 'denouce' Islam. To me religions are a form of superstition, be it Islam, Christianity or Judaism. What I find fastinating about them is how they evolve from what they were to what they are to what they might become. Believe it or not you follow Islam differently from early Muslims and in a thousand years Muslims will follow it slightly different to you. Morals and peoples way of interpreting what is written will change to suit the society around it.
 
We possessed atheist preacher so far, now we became that lucky and encountered islamic preacher.
Positions of christian, hinduist (is it correst word?) and buddhist preachers are still vacant. Please, don`t hesitate to send us your resumes and CVs.
:D :D :D

p.s. yeah, i know, Mars Man sama, i know... but nevertheless...
 
Shaolin said:
You don't need to 'see' someone spread a carpet in order to 'prove' that it is possible.
Possibility alone is enough for you that mentioning it is used as exemplifying a globe? How prevalent was it in ancient Arabic times to "spread" your carpet like a ball?

Point to me the verses in the Quran which state the earth is flat. Since they are 'so obvious' it shouldn't be a problem.
One example would be your carpet quote. Only rather queer thinkers would get the idea of a globe when reading this.

This shows that they were merely taking guesses.
Crap. The globe calculation was not a mere guess. Please take some history lessons.

I was addressing the 'different interpretation' issue.
& in how far was it a task of the Koran to have different interpretations? What's it good for?

Though you TOTALLY missed the point.
Nope. You seem to have forgot your point about the numbers.

Why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the world? And the contrary for christianity?
Since I seem to have missed the point, what is it?

The back-Ally priest isn't a good source for information.
Hmm? Who's that?

I'm sure there ARE plenty english sources especially if this is established, no?
You shouldn't believe everything you read on Wikipedia. Its got quite alot of Islamic History wrong. Anyway, 'I recommend some good Islamic books'.
Did I say Wikipedia was my main source? Another of your attempts at deception?
I don't have time to research English sources, therefore I gave you the Wikipedia recommendation as a starting point, nothing more.

Here are some names for you to make your search easier: Luxenberg, Puin, Moncef Ben Abdeljelil (German transcription, he's a professor at the Sousse University in Tunis).

They have got the terminology wrong. This is the Mus-Haf.
Obviously, you missed what I wrote: That's the "complete" Tashkent copy I mentioned earlier. & this one is not from Othman but much later, probably from the 9th century. Abdeljelil is working on fragments of much older copies (eg. some found in Sana'a some 30 years ago).

The offshoots are still within one of the two sects.
What do the Ibadites belong to, then?

Some of the offshoots are no longer muslims for various reasons.
Probably mostly for reasons of your convenience. "Ah, they! They don't count, because they're not real muslims." I wonder, how many of those 1.2 b Muslims earlier mentioned are actually Muslims, acc. to your definition?

When HE died, he was in debt. Secondly, he lead a life of CONSTANT suffering, pain, hardships when he started preaching Islam. Third, wouldn't he of stopped preaching the message the first instance of hardship ? Fourth, why did he reject ALL the power/women the arabians were offering him when he first started preaching Islam?
1) "Influence, power, women" Where do you read money? (Although this debt thingy is another dubious idea, anyway.)
2) That's pretty common if you overestimate yourself.
3) Was he such a weakling?
4) Why then was he allowed (& took) more wives than his followers?


I just had to laugh at the sillyness of this post. You OBVIOUSLY don't know what your talking about. Ulema ARE the people who interpretate the Qur'an, and the Madhabs consitute of these ulema who derive the ahkams/fatwas (rulings).
I just had to laugh at the sillyness of this post. You OBVIOUSLY don't know [how to read].
The Koran is not only interpreted by Ulema (in Madhhabs). Everybody who reads it, does. As I said before (not that you understood it): "Fundamentalists do not have a monopoly on interpreting holy books."

Talk about the obvious.
Then why didn't you see it?

For a religion to exist there must be some sort of holybook, no?
Obviously, you're focused much too much on Islam. There are numerous religions without holy books.

Sufism is a essential part of Islam
Very funny. Sufism is rather -hmm- varied, some are Sunni, some Shia, some mixed, some something else. There are obviously some Muslims who don't really share your view:
"On this page Insha'Allaah you find An in-depth historical background to the origins of sufism and their' corrupt beliefs."
 
bossel said:
Possibility alone is enough for you that mentioning it is used as exemplifying a globe? How prevalent was it in ancient Arabic times to "spread" your carpet like a ball?
One example would be your carpet quote. Only rather queer thinkers would get the idea of a globe when reading this.
Bossel,

What can I say to someone who thinks that 2+2=5 ?
I gave you a verse which DIRECTLY states that the earth is spherical/round. Now, you still haven't answered my question. WHERE is this 'verse' which says the earth is flat? What chapter, what verse?

Crap. The globe calculation was not a mere guess. Please take some history lessons.
As accurate as the earth being the centre of the universe. I recommend you take your own advice to save yourself the embrassment.

& in how far was it a task of the Koran to have different interpretations? What's it good for?
It's actually a mercy on Allah's behalf. The Quran is intended for all mankind, so it cannot address everyone on the same level because we all have different capacites. Hence, the way its been worded is mean't to address all capacities. This is the reason for some offshoots.
For example, the Naqshibandi who have a VERY deep understanding of the Qur'an believe that Allah is everything in existance. This is something ALOT of people cannot accept/comprehend/understand and hence don't follow it. On the other hand you get salafis' who have a very superfical understanding of the Qur'an. These two 'branches' fall into the sunni 'main branch'. Do you now see what I mean by interpretations, and how sub-branches usually fall into one of the two branches; Sunni or Shia?

Did I say Wikipedia was my main source? Another of your attempts at deception?
I don't have time to research English sources, therefore I gave you the Wikipedia recommendation as a starting point, nothing more.
Here are some names for you to make your search easier: Luxenberg, Puin, Moncef Ben Abdeljelil (German transcription, he's a professor at the Sousse University in Tunis).
Did I say Wikipedia was your main source? Being a muslim, I don't need the likes of Wikipedia when it comes to Islam.

4) Why then was he allowed (& took) more wives than his followers?
When he married, he married for social reform. For example, he married a Jew who later converted her whole tribe into Islam.

I just had to laugh at the sillyness of this post. You OBVIOUSLY don't know [how to read].
The Koran is not only interpreted by Ulema (in Madhhabs). Everybody who reads it, does. As I said before (not that you understood it): "Fundamentalists do not have a monopoly on interpreting holy books."
Then why didn't you see it?
Its usually the ulema who interpretate it and explain it to the followers. Note that a madhab constitutes of thousands of ulema. Anyway, its ulema who derive rulings from the Quran, not the followers. The followers do just that, follow.

Obviously, you're focused much too much on Islam. There are numerous religions without holy books.
A religion constitutes of a holybook, otherwise its considered a cult/sect.

Very funny. Sufism is rather -hmm- varied, some are Sunni, some Shia, some mixed, some something else. There are obviously some Muslims who don't really share your view:
"On this page Insha'Allaah you find An in-depth historical background to the origins of sufism and their' corrupt beliefs."
Exactly. Everyone can be a sufi because it is a part of Islam. Though, the likes of Ibn Taymeyya are enemies of sufi, this is part of the explanation I gave you above regarding interpretations.
.
 
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