J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Galaxy Overlord]

I had to register another account because I forgot the password of the previous one



Merrma ne goje o magjup.
You are not Illyrian so stop pretending. You are exactly those Borats you are talking about.
Only R1b is Illyrian so stop LARPing. You are E-V13, descendant of Nafri Farmers. J2bs are Semitic/Semitic-ish. Why do none of the dominant J countries speak Indo-European languages? Because they are not Indo-European. So enough of your goblin pilpul and somebody delete this disgraceful thread already or at least edit Proto-Illyrian out of the title because clearly haplogroup J or any of its descendants has nothing to do with Illyrians or any Indo-European culture for that matter.

Why do you even bother commenting in a genetic forum about haplogroups if you don't even understand what subclades are. Based on your post Its obvious that your knowledge is equivalent to a little kid who just googled haplogroups for the first time. I would try to go through the effort of explaining subclades to you but I truly doubt your capable of actually understanding. Regardless, I'll quickly obliterate your elementary school level responses for fun, even though I know you wont understand them and will simply respond to me with similar academic arguments such as the classic:

"Why do none of the dominant J countries speak Indo-European languages?"

Maybe because the J subclades that are predominant in those countries have different origins than the subclade "J2b-L283" which we are currently discussing.

haplogroup J or any of its descendants has nothing to do with Illyrians or any Indo-European culture for that matter.

This is an easy one. If we know the geographic location and time frame in which the Indo-European language speaking Illyrians existed. And the overwhelming majority of the ancient DNA samples found in this geographic location and time frame were J2b-L283. Then what can we infer?... I'll give you some time to think about it in your head........ That's right! Perhaps the Illyrians predominately consisted of haplogroup J2b-L283 thus showing an Indo-European language being spoken by a majority J population.

Only R1b is Illyrian so stop LARPing. You are E-V13, descendant of Nafri Farmers. J2bs are Semitic/Semitic-ish.

The majority of ancient Illyrians DNA samples are J2b-L283 and macro groups like J2b are not associated with one culture but instead with many cultures which each can be associated with specific subclades. Also once again were talking about the subclade J2b-L283 not the haplogroup it descends from. Should we define all R1b clades as being from Asia since it descends from R? Also your just applying random cultures and associating them with haplogroups groups which origins are much older then said cultures, and with cultures which actually didn't even have majority's of subclades of these macro groups?

 

[Viramund]

Hello ,
2 new ancient J2b-L283 samples for you guys:
They are father and son, from around the year 428 - 634 AD.
IDs : 2423-US118 and 2419-US484(?) (ItalicMedit /TSI autossomal profile) both are J2b-L283-Y51320 and in https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/J-Y51320/tree TMRCA estimated 550 BCE
L283>Z622>Z600>Z2509>Z585>Z615>Z8418>Z597>Z2507>Z1296>Z1297>Z1295>Z8421>Z631>Z1043>Z8425>Z8424>Z8429>Y51320
The other modern descendant is public
225319 Leif Alstad, Alstahaug, NRL Norway J-Y51320

The church of Burgusio Santo Stefano – St. Stephan ob Burgeis18,65 is under the protection of the Autonomous Province of Bolzano. This is located on a steep slope near the village of Burgusio-Burgeis (1364 m a.s.l.) in the Upper Venosta valley-Vinschgau.

Y chromosome but different mtDNA haplogroups) supported a father-son relationship between the male with the belt (2423, age at death: 35–40 years old; AD 557–634) and another male (2419, 40–50 years; AD 428–567) from the same grave T.2. Since, according to the archaeological records, individual 2423 was one of the last deceased to be buried in the grave, we can speculate that he was the son of 2419.
The prestige of the individuals buried in T.2 is suggested by the presence of the multiple belt that accompanied the man 2423 and by the location of the grave near the altar, the most prestigious area of the church. In fact, the structure of the church itself was modified to create space for the tomb.
From the paper: https://www.cell.com/iscience/fulltext/S2589-0042(23)02292-7

 

[Galaxy Overlord]

Hello ,
2 new ancient J2b-L283 samples for you guys:
They are father and son, from around the year 428 - 634 AD.
IDs : 2423-US118 and 2419-US484(?) (ItalicMedit /TSI autossomal profile) both are J2b-L283-Y51320 and in https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/J-Y51320/tree TMRCA estimated 550 BCE
L283>Z622>Z600>Z2509>Z585>Z615>Z8418>Z597>Z2507>Z1296>Z1297>Z1295>Z8421>Z631>Z1043>Z8425>Z8424>Z8429>Y51320
The other modern descendant is public
225319 Leif Alstad, Alstahaug, NRL Norway J-Y51320

The church of Burgusio Santo Stefano – St. Stephan ob Burgeis18,65 is under the protection of the Autonomous Province of Bolzano. This is located on a steep slope near the village of Burgusio-Burgeis (1364 m a.s.l.) in the Upper Venosta valley-Vinschgau.

Y chromosome but different mtDNA haplogroups) supported a father-son relationship between the male with the belt (2423, age at death: 35–40 years old; AD 557–634) and another male (2419, 40–50 years; AD 428–567) from the same grave T.2. Since, according to the archaeological records, individual 2423 was one of the last deceased to be buried in the grave, we can speculate that he was the son of 2419.
The prestige of the individuals buried in T.2 is suggested by the presence of the multiple belt that accompanied the man 2423 and by the location of the grave near the altar, the most prestigious area of the church. In fact, the structure of the church itself was modified to create space for the tomb.
From the paper: https://www.cell.com/iscience/fulltext/S2589-0042(23)02292-7

It seems they also analyzed the unpublished PCA0390 sample that was not in the Genetic history of East-Central Europe in the first millennium CE paper: https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-023-03013-9

PCA0390

1000 - 1200 CE

Santok, Lubusz voivodship, Poland

J-L283>J-Y23094

K1c1

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/J-Y23094/ancient

 

[Viramund]

It seems they also analyzed the unpublished PCA0390 sample that was not in the Genetic history of East-Central Europe in the first millennium CE paper: https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-023-03013-9

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]PCA0390[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1000 - 1200 CE[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Santok, Lubusz voivodship, Poland[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]J-L283>J-Y23094[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]K1c1[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/J-Y23094/ancient

Ohh I remember this one from anthrogenica. Another western slavic L283 ancient sample, at the time i expected it to be at least Z1043 like KRA010.

 

[norbert]

I'm amazed that some people still think haplogroup J is Semitic. It is a haplogroup the Natufian-related populations received from the Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers who are also one of the main components of the Western Steppe Herders. The autosomal inheritance of the Semitic peoples is still overwhelmingly Natufian as is their language, of course, Semitic being an Afroasiatic branch. The prevalence of haplogroup J among the Semitic peoples today is the result of an aggressive incursion of CHG-related groups and founder effects. J2b-L283 is most certainly not Semitic.

 

[mount123]

Gjergj Bojaxhi is a voluntary researcher of the Albanian DNA project titled Rrënjet. In a recent interview with Kosovar Albanian channel T7 he claims the Albanian tribes of Krasniqja-Nikaj, Luzha and Batusha, whose founding fathers belong to J2b-L283>PH4679 (excluding "anas-fise" who have adopted K, N, L, B tribal identity and belong to different haplogroups) to be non-Dardanians and that their deeper paternal origins are from the Illyrians of Mati (Mati-Mirditë-Dibër).

In a previous interview with Albanian channel "ABC" he also said that there are a lot of human remains being analyzed from different archeological sites in Albania.

 

[Riverman]

Hello ,
2 new ancient J2b-L283 samples for you guys:
They are father and son, from around the year 428 - 634 AD.
IDs : 2423-US118 and 2419-US484(?) (ItalicMedit /TSI autossomal profile) both are J2b-L283-Y51320 and in https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/J-Y51320/tree TMRCA estimated 550 BCE
L283>Z622>Z600>Z2509>Z585>Z615>Z8418>Z597>Z2507>Z1296>Z1297>Z1295>Z8421>Z631>Z1043>Z8425>Z8424>Z8429>Y51320
The other modern descendant is public
225319 Leif Alstad, Alstahaug, NRL Norway J-Y51320

The church of Burgusio Santo Stefano – St. Stephan ob Burgeis18,65 is under the protection of the Autonomous Province of Bolzano. This is located on a steep slope near the village of Burgusio-Burgeis (1364 m a.s.l.) in the Upper Venosta valley-Vinschgau.

Y chromosome but different mtDNA haplogroups) supported a father-son relationship between the male with the belt (2423, age at death: 35–40 years old; AD 557–634) and another male (2419, 40–50 years; AD 428–567) from the same grave T.2. Since, according to the archaeological records, individual 2423 was one of the last deceased to be buried in the grave, we can speculate that he was the son of 2419.
The prestige of the individuals buried in T.2 is suggested by the presence of the multiple belt that accompanied the man 2423 and by the location of the grave near the altar, the most prestigious area of the church. In fact, the structure of the church itself was modified to create space for the tomb.
From the paper: https://www.cell.com/iscience/fulltext/S2589-0042(23)02292-7

If really that old in the North, the most likely explanation is a Hallstatt era movement I guess, probably from a specialist like an iron smith or something like that. In the Hallstatt sphere J-L283 was surely present.

 

[Ghurier]

If really that old in the North, the most likely explanation is a Hallstatt era movement I guess, probably from a specialist like an iron smith or something like that. In the Hallstatt sphere J-L283 was surely present.

As of now, to explain diversification histories, spatial distribution, clade spatial-cross-correlation and ancient samples,
I would expect some J-Y15058, J-Y27522, and J-Z631 to have penetrated the eastern Hallstatt sphere (that have an horrible spatial coverage up to now, whereas some sites have an amazing number of samples ...).

What remains to be seen is their exact area of diffusion (Eastern-Alps mountains vs Danube-valley). To have produced ~800 BCE surviving diversity, they need to have expanded relatively "soon", no later than ~600 BCE. But considering the large number of clades, they also need a lot of space (mountains are a good way to alleviate this problematic by enhancing geographical barriers to produce long-lasting diversity).
Most likely they were among cremating populations, I would expect them to have diffused from south-eastern Austria/Slovenia around 1000 BCE alongside some E-V13 and R1b.

Looking at the date of expansion, Burgstallkogel would probably be a good candidate to find some (but cremation ...). It is also a decent place to source at the time the Balkans and South-Germany with J-Z631.
I would also be interested to see more samples between 600 BCE and 0 CE from south-eastern Germany and Northern Austria to see when and how the diffusion occured.


The footprint of L283 is very insteresting in that sense

To me the 1st millenium BCE distribution of J-L283 is mainly Western-Balkans/Italy/South-Germany/Austria (most of the saturating areas in the plot, >5% modern presence).
The "holes" in the modern distribution are very interesting as they probe some CE events :
-Slavic invasion of the Balkans (even if J-L283 was marginally present among Slavs)
-Longobard in north Italy (I suspect that some "old" J-L283 diversity might have existed there in relation to J-Z585)
-Noricum ripense being emptied during Roman empire collapse.

What we need is a better spatial coverage of 1st millenium BCE. Sadly, if this population mainly cremated, finding sample will remain fairly hard.

 

[mount123]

Gjergj Bojaxhi is a voluntary researcher of the Albanian DNA project titled Rrënjet. In a recent interview with Kosovar Albanian channel T7 he claims the Albanian tribes of Krasniqja-Nikaj, Luzha and Batusha, whose founding fathers belong to J2b-L283>PH4679 (excluding "anas-fise" who have adopted K, N, L, B tribal identity and belong to different haplogroups) to be non-Dardanians and that their deeper paternal origins are from the Illyrians of Mati (Mati-Mirditë-Dibër).

In a previous interview with Albanian channel "ABC" he also said that there are a lot of human remains being analyzed from different archeological sites in Albania.

From Hunter Provyn's article Educated Speculation on J2b-Z638 Subclades Bronze and Iron Age Tribal Affinities and Migrations

 

[Riverman]

I think there are mainly two pathways to the North, one through the Alps, the intermediate would be the Unterkrainische group in Slovenia, which used Illyrian influenced inhumation burial rites, there R-L2 dominated, but a J-L283 migrant was found. The other would be over the Danube and its tributaries, that would be the cremating groups among which I assume a higher E-V13 participation beside R-L2. And since the Illyrians-related groups had contacts to both and were even involved in Pannonia, that could have easily led to J-L283 males moving through Hallstatt networks.

 

[Riverman]

Correction, doesn't look like its that old in the North:

Ancestry and kinship in a Late Antiquity-Early Middle Ages cemetery in the EasternItalian Alps

I guess that you should take a look upon Venetian Republic History. There were several Slavic Settlers on Terraferma during Modern Ages, my lineage was just an example(From Vicenza and totally Slavic before XVI century, R1a-YP3929-FT62520). You should record about Schiavone Marines, from...

www.eupedia.com

If one trusts the other and nobody double-checks, we all go wrong

 

[Ghurier]

Correction, doesn't look like its that old in the North:

Ancestry and kinship in a Late Antiquity-Early Middle Ages cemetery in the EasternItalian Alps

I guess that you should take a look upon Venetian Republic History. There were several Slavic Settlers on Terraferma during Modern Ages, my lineage was just an example(From Vicenza and totally Slavic before XVI century, R1a-YP3929-FT62520). You should record about Schiavone Marines, from...

www.eupedia.com

If one trusts the other and nobody double-checks, we all go wrong

The two samples are likely Father/son and are from 5th-6th century CE.
The TMRCA by FTDNA means nothing, it is totally unconstrained.

Which didn't affect the other probes about the likely diffusion of some subclades with eastern Hallstatt populations.
Hopefully we will get more 1st millenium BCE coverage in the region with future studies.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I ran Albanian MBA on qpdam, found several working models.

I would exclude the Albania EN(early neolithic) since late neolithic from Albania fails clearly. Also worth of note, other Serbian neolithic and all Croatian neolithic also fail, except the single Vucedol. Overall the data points to the triangle between these three working samples, which is Drina river valley. Would be nice to get EBA and neolithic samples from this region.

The triangle in question, the best fits are the western samples, especially the one from Montenegro, the gradient is pulling towards the Serbian-Bosnian border.

Logkas, which Brumziu of rrenjet is trying to appropriate as Illyrian are strictly of Greek neolithic, also Yamnaya derived.

Logkas are Armenchori and likely belong to R-PF7563

right = c('Cameroon_SMA', 'Czech_Vestonice16', 'Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1', 'Russia_West_Siberia_HG', 'Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic', 'Karitiana.DG', 'Papuan.DG', 'Iran_GanjDareh_N', 'Russia_Boisman_MN', 'Romania_C_Bodrogkeresztur', 'Croatia_MLBA', 'Netherlands_EIA', 'Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya', 'Czech_CordedWare', 'Lithuania_EMN_Narva', 'Turkey_Arslantepe_LateC', 'Israel_C', 'Iraq_PPNA', 'ONG.SG')

 

[Archetype0ne]

Spoiler: .

I ran Albanian MBA on qpdam, found several working models.

I would exclude the Albania EN(early neolithic) since late neolithic from Albania fails clearly. Also worth of note, other Serbian neolithic and all Croatian neolithic also fail, except the single Vucedol. Overall the data points to the triangle between these three working samples, which is Drina river valley. Would be nice to get EBA and neolithic samples from this region.

The triangle in question, the best fits are the western samples, especially the one from Montenegro, the gradient is pulling towards the Serbian-Bosnian border.

Logkas, which Brumziu of rrenjet is trying to appropriate as Illyrian are strictly of Greek neolithic, also Yamnaya derived.

Logkas are Armenchori and likely belong to R-PF7563

right = c('Cameroon_SMA', 'Czech_Vestonice16', 'Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1', 'Russia_West_Siberia_HG', 'Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic', 'Karitiana.DG', 'Papuan.DG', 'Iran_GanjDareh_N', 'Russia_Boisman_MN', 'Romania_C_Bodrogkeresztur', 'Croatia_MLBA', 'Netherlands_EIA', 'Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya', 'Czech_CordedWare', 'Lithuania_EMN_Narva', 'Turkey_Arslantepe_LateC', 'Israel_C', 'Iraq_PPNA', 'ONG.SG')

Sadly Albania_MBA and Albania_EN_oEEF are both low quality samples. A lot of blocks are discarded. Also, I would remove the samples younger than the components that you are testing from the tails.

I am not sure where you get the triangle from though. During the late Neolithic and the EBA the components needed to model BGR_EBA, ALB_EBA, SRB_EBA, RO_EBA, would have been found in a far wider area. (Lazaridis has a couple of paragraphs related to these early Yamnaya outliers found in the Balkans in his Southern Arc paper, make sure to "ctrl+f" the supplement). The Steppe component would have been found from the Steppe to Central Europe let alone the Balkans, certainly originating somewhere north of the Black Sea. While IIRC, according to Lazaridis the only special thing about those EEF samples found in those Albanian caves was the lack of WHG compared to the Greek Neolithic EEF samples. Otherwise the EEF profile would have likewise been very common all around the Balkans. The triangle is way too limited. Maybe you are mixing some hypothetical early Albanian theories with early Balkan Yamnaya ones?

Edit to add the source:

But yeah, this is a must read for anyone interested in European population genetics. And I again suggest you take a look.

https://www.science.org/action/downloadSupplement?doi=10.1126%2Fscience.abm4247&file=science.abm4247_sm.pdf

 

[Archetype0ne]

So Yamnaya samples Moldova -> {(->Romania) (->Bulgaria) (->Serbia) (->Albania)} in an un-admixed fashion. And the main differences are the local Neolithic populations. Greece and Albania both show CHG + EEF, but Greece has additional European HG. While Serbia is particularly rich in (W)HG.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

My model shows that J2b from MBA Albania is Yamnaya derived with a neolithic component from the triangle zone. The missing values are entirely driven by Alb neolithic sample which I discarded the results anyhow, because chronologically it made no sense that the late neolithic did not pass. Two blocks missing is not an issue.

I rechecked the results, no difference. In the supplementary it clearly states, that Alb MBA, based on strontium analysis grow up inland and is not a local. This most likely means somewhere between eastern Bosnia and western Serbia.

I am suggesting this is how Yamnaya split in the western Balkans.

From there, J2b_L283 expands into the Adriatic, while still maintaining territory in western Serbia. R-Z2103 is gradually pushed south towards R-PF7563 by corded tribes and WHG insurgency in western Hungary. J2b_L283 cultures are Cetina and Belotic-Crvka, R-PF7563 is Bubanj-Hum and Armenchori. Hungarian Yamnaya is R-Z2103 which later becomes(contracts to) Vatin and Maros(a hybrid culture with a prevalence of R-Z2103).

 

[Viramund]

If J-L283 was among steppe yamnaya shouldn't it have been found already? They are almost all R-Z2103 , I2a2 or J1.

 

[Archetype0ne]

If J-L283 was among steppe yamnaya shouldn't it have been found already? They are almost all R-Z2103 , I2a2 or J1.

The big question is how many samples we have? And from how many sites?
Them being homogeneous is no surprise given the culture.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

If J-L283 was among steppe yamnaya shouldn't it have been found already? They are almost all R-Z2103 , I2a2 or J1.

Apply the same argument to the alternative, the neolithic theory. And we have a lot more neolithic samples than we do of Yamnaya. Where is J2b-L283 in pre-BA context in Europe?
In anthrogenica some of peeping toms who have access to unpublished data claimed that in BA Serbia, there will be J2b-L283. Let's wait and see if these samples are EBA, and the nature of their profile.
Cetina J2b are beaker shifted because their females seem to be coming from Beaker related groups. It's pretty obvious when you plot females vs males on a PCA. This implies the coastal area was semi-colonized by Beaker derived groups before J2b_L283 expanding from the inland defeated them and took their women.
The Ljubjana culture which predates the Beaker and Cetina presence in the Adriatic, appears to be R-Z2103 and quite low on steppe admixture, this is from the Hungarian paper leak, which included Slovenia EBA(Ljubjanska culture) samples in their PCA plot.

 

[TetaEglantina]

Apply the same argument to the alternative, the neolithic theory. And we have a lot more neolithic samples than we do of Yamnaya. Where is J2b-L283 in pre-BA context in Europe?
In anthrogenica some of peeping toms who have access to unpublished data claimed that in BA Serbia, there will be J2b-L283. Let's wait and see if these samples are EBA, and the nature of their profile.
Cetina J2b are beaker shifted because their females seem to be coming from Beaker related groups. It's pretty obvious when you plot females vs males on a PCA. This implies the coastal area was semi-colonized by Beaker derived groups before J2b_L283 expanding from the inland defeated them and took their women.
The Ljubjana culture which predates the Beaker and Cetina presence in the Adriatic, appears to be R-Z2103 and quite low on steppe admixture, this is from the Hungarian paper leak, which included Slovenia EBA(Ljubjanska culture) samples in their PCA plot.

Could j2b l283 be a CHG tribe that entered Europe through Anatolia and settled in western Balkans? Either alongside Yamnaya (r-z2103) or separate, if it was alongside we have yet to see them both together with ancient dna