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I see you prefer theology to science. No problem. De gustibus non est disputandum. Live long and prosper =)))
I'm calling it still I2a2, you call it I2a1b, we both know about which HG we are talking about, so... You wanna tell me that such a great amount of HG I2a2 was "transported" with Croats and Serbs from today Ukraine, all the way trough Poland to present day Croatia in this precentege of I2a2 as we have today in Croatia and Bosnia (highest in Europe)? How can that be possible? Were they traveling with Space ships? Because we are not talking about few days or years of migrations, but 4 and 5 centuries, we are talking here about 500 years of Croatian traveling from Today Ukraine, once Sarmatian lands, across Poland to Croatia...
Croats as also Serbs, brought with them only one HG... and that is R1a, that was a dominant HG of Croats and Serbs who orginally came to present day area of Cro and Ser... that's a logical conclusion, I2a2 was adopted from autohtone people of this area, I'm not speaking about "Illyrians" but about pre-croatian and pre-serbian people of this are with who croats made a contact after they came here to Croatia...
Term Illyrian is a twisted term, that's way I've said that I'm not talking about Romanized Illyrians.
pre-croation ?? was romanized illyrians
pre them was celtic- illyrians
pre them was illyrians
its simple all the world knows them as illyrians , all the ancient historians know them as illyrians. let us not confuse this issue
Crescent moon and six pointed star is Illyrian coat of arms , not Croatian . Yes Poland and Chezch coat of arms are both related to Croatian - that are the places where White Croats lived .Everything else is only asumptions based on linguistic similarityActually no, the oldest known coats of arms (and flag) representing Croatia was different. It was, to cite from Croatian wikipedia page of "Coat of arms of Croatia" ( where you can see the two pictures ) translated "According to medieval coins that were in use on the Croatian territory, it seems that at least of 12 Century (1196) Croatian coat of arms was a [yellow or golden] six-pointed morning star (or Danica - actually planet Venera) above a [white or silver] crescent moon." [on a red flag] "...These elements of the arms are included in many Croatian noblemen [dunno who] and city coat of arms (eg coat of arms of Gradec and Zagreb (capital of Croatia), at least since the 14th century, the coat of arms of Varaždin at least since the 15th century)..."
As for noblemen families Frankopan family used this CoA until 1430 year.
http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datoteka:Stari_grb_Frankopana_(do_1430).JPG
" The Frankopan family ranked next to the Zrinski family in importance by virtue of their power, wealth, fame, glory and role in Croatia's public life. They were so called only by the first half of the fifteenth century because of their affinity with the Roman patrician Frangipani family. However, they were mentioned in the year 1133 (with Dujam being the first recorded name of the Frankopans) as rulers and lords of the island of Krk and part of the littoral. " Were Frankopan family a nobility with Croatian gene lines?
"Serbs and Croats seems to go in pair for long time as related but different people..."
Indeed, can this "oldest known Croatian CoA/Flag" somehow be connected with what how yes no wrote in his post
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showth...-and-their-DNA&p=377703&viewfull=1#post377703
To cite:
" Dorians might have been same people as Serians/Zeruiani/Zoryani - people named after Slavic tripple goddess Zorya - also known as star Danica... thus making those people perhaps from the stock of Danaans.... which explains why Homerolog Roberto Sallinas Price claims that Homer's work was originally written in slavic-like language...
btw. what if Homer is not personal name, but a nation of blind poet - Gomer or Cimmerian...
Zorya = serbian 'zora' = 'dawn' in english
serbian 'dan' = 'day' in english
Teshub (this is his Hurrian name, Hattian name is Taru, Hittite and Luwian name is Tarhun ) is clearly same god as Germanic Thor, Celtic Taranis, Baltic Perkunas and Slavic Perun..it is primery god of IE people....his carriage was drawn by two sacred bulls Seri and Hurri..their names mean day and night....
The sacred bull common throughout Anatolia was his signature animal, represented by his horned crown or by his steeds Seri and Hurri, who drew his chariot or carried him on their backs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub
thus, Seri = day
Zorya = dawn
Sera = Dera = fleece..
Seri = day and bull
The Morning Star is Zorya Utrennyaya (from Russian utro, meaning "morning"; also known as Zvezda Danica, Zvezda Dennitsa, Zwezda Dnieca, Zvezda Zornitsa, Gwiazda Poranna, Rannia Zoria, Zornica, Zornička), who opens the gates of Dažbog's palace each morning so that the Sun may begin his journey.[3] She is depicted as a warrior goddess, ....In some tales, she sits under the World Tree on the fiery-stone Alatuir, from which run the four rivers of the Otherworld, and under her seat flows the river of healing.....
Alatuir is altai mountain and 4 rivers that separate world tree of people of same IE origin from other world (Chinese and Mongolians) are these
this is about land of Serica bordering other world, world of Chinese and Mongolians....
land of Serica is marked with remains of haplogroup I in asia..both Serica proper that relates to northwest china (where today Sart and white-Sart people live), and arc from China to India (exactly where Sarbans live)...
Sart is a name for the settled inhabitants of Central Asia which has had shifting meanings over the centuries. Sarts, known sometimes as Ak-Sart ("White Sart") in ancient times, did not have any particular ethnic identification, and were usually (though not always) town-dwellers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart
interestingly, the Muslim, Mongol-speaking Dongxiang people of Northwestern China call themselves Sarta or Santa. It is not clear if there is any connection between this term and the Sarts of Central Asia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart
Zorya is also associated with moon
Conflicting accounts exist of her marital situation. In some myths, she is described as the wife of Perun and would accompany her husband into battle. In this role she was known to protect those warriors she favoured against death by letting down her veil. In other accounts, both she and Zorya Vechernyaya were the wives of the male Myesyats, the moon god, and by him bore all of the stars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorya
13-th century Mongolian source, "Secret History of the Mongols" states that the Mongols called people from Central Asia, most notably Khwarezm, as "Sartuul". "Sar" in Mongolian means "moon", hence sart or sarta would mean "ones with (flag with) moon", since the Muslim people had Hilal symbol on their flags. One of the Mongolian tribes living in the Zavkhan province are descendants of merchants from Khwarezm, who resided in Harhorin. This tribe, still, is called Sartuul.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart
thus,
Dera = Sera = fleece
Zorya = dawn
dan = day
Seri = day and bull
Sar = moon
Sar+dan = moon+day
moon and bull on helmets of Sherdana (only toponym left after them is "Serbonian bog")
The name of the Serbonian Bog (Arabic: مستنقع سربون) applied to the lake of Serbonis (Sirbonis or Serbon) in Egypt relates to the Sea Peoples. When sand blew onto it, the Serbonian Bog appeared to be solid land, but was in fact a bog. The term is now applied metaphorically to any situation in which one is entangled from which extrication is difficult.
The Serbonian Bog has been identified as Sabkhat al [Bardawil], one of the string of "Bitter Lakes" to the east of the Nile's right branch. It was described in ancient times as a quagmire, in which armies were fabled to be swallowed up and lost.
The term Serbonian came from the name of the Sherden (also known as Serden or Shardana) sea pirates, one of several groups of Sea Peoples who appear in fragmentary Egyptian records in the 2nd millennium BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_people
tribal name Serbs likely origin from Slavic word "Srp" meaning sickle or crescent...
isn't this flag of medieval serbs nobles (also used as coat of arms of Serbs) with moon showing its different phases...
isn't it same motive as celtic cross?
Danaans = Dorians = Zoryans/Zeruiani = Serians = white-Syrians = Cimmerians= Sumerians = Gomer = Sherdana = Scordisci = Serdi = white Serbs = white -Sart "
Is this picture representing veritable the Sarmatians?
Can we connect Croatian "oldest CoA" and "sahovnica" with coat of arms of Polish nobility?:
http://w3.iac.net/~moonweb/archives/RTP/Polish1.html
Did Croats, Serbs, (or Sea people) influenced the Coat of Arms of the:
Czech Republic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Czech_Republic
Bulgaria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Bulgaria
Romania [ note the bull ]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Romania
as well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_heraldry with Wallachia CoA
Look at the Caucasian Avars flag
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Avars
Is the crescent moon heritage of Avars in Croatia?
Actually this whole notion of the I2a-Din clade as peculiarly associated with the Sarmatians is rather fanciful (and not only because we don't actually have any aDNA to back it up). It's being asserted repeatedly by posters who would like the (or some of the) South Slavs to be "Sarmatians", largely on the basis of what they understand from snippets in Diodorus Siculus and Pliny... Diodorus' notion of an early "Sarmatian" destruction of "Scythia" has recently been devastated by archaeologists (Browse through the online literature at www.pontos.dk) so much so that one must ask oneself what this author could have meant by this ca. 50 BCE when the text first appeared... Perhaps he was thinking of the lambasting of Bastarnia by the Yazigi and Roxolan allies of Burebista in the years following the collapse of Mithradatus' enterprise. This was about the time of the birth of the MCRA of Din-S acc. to Ken Nordvedt's computations. The association of Pliny's Caucasus "Sarmatian" tribal units with the areas south of the Danube hardly predates Avar times. The Slavs they led were largely Din-N and S. But the thin aristocratic groups which gave the new peoples their current names may not have shared this anyway (we don't know and probably never shall).
I2a1b in Ukraine and Moldova are from Antes and Rusini ( Boiki ) and white Croats that settled there in VII centuryNow that I think about possible connections between I2a2 and Scythians, the first thing which enters my head is Chernoles culture - the Scythian ploughmen. Ethnically and anthropologically these were different from Scythian warriors - the ruling elite class, which resided in the Pontic steppe and were the migrants from the east. The high figures of I2a2 in Moldova should be attributed to the Slavic tribes of Ulychs and Tyverts who came from the north (Western Ukraine).
I also support the hypothesis of Verenich that I2a2 is the result of Medieval slavic migrations from the territory of Western Ukraine.
For instance Tacitus , ...What sources other than Diodorus pray tell?
Constantine is reputed to have settled 300,000 Sarmatian "Argagarantes" (also called "masters" by Ammianus), and not just in the Balkans but also in Italy. But we don't see much I2a1b1 in Italy. The Roman empire absorbed these new arrivals just as easily as it had absorbed the Bastarnians and the Carpi. The plague of Justinian also decimated these older populations. Then the Slavs arrived en masse.
For instance Tacitus , ...
Argaragantes were real Sarmathians , Limigantes were they "slaves " - subdued nations mainly composed of Dacians and Scythians - Slavs among others . This is first time I hier Constantine settled them in Italy , he settled them only in Thracia - no Barbarian nation had ever been settled in Italy - they needed them to protect borders - and there is no borders in Italy , and they wanted them away from capitol city - Rome .
Who say Slavs arrived in masses - there is only few Slavic tribes that entered Balkans and mainly in Thracia , Thesalonici aeria and two in Peloponesus ( Milingi could be Serbian tribe , so maybe only one Slavic tribe - Jezerites ) . We dont even know how and when do they get in - no source speack about that , we could only guess they entered betwen Fokas rebelion and first attack on Thessaloniki . We also dont know how many of them was there - so it is realy bold to say masses
Maybe you should read Tacitus once more he say Sarmathians live in land that previosly belonged to Scythians that they taken from them .
I didnt read Origo Constantinus Imperatoris so you would have to help me : where in Italy did they were settled ? How many of them ? Because I know 500.000 was settled in Thracia .
Which article ? If you talk about one about burial customs he refers at time period betwen 500-200 BC and in that time Sarmathians werent there . There is clear difference betwen Sarmathians and Scythians - Sarmathians had woman wariors and burried them , Scythians havent , ofcourse there is lot of simmilarities .
1)According to Porphirogenetus, 'Serb' was just a social status('servants'). Why do you always leave out that favorite part of mine?
2)Vlachs are an ethnic group, so yes,a good part of the 'Serbs' who came with Turks are of non-Serbian and non-Slavic origin.
childish
nazi
you STUPIDITY
In my opinion Eupedia's Haplogroup Description fits well with archaelogical data.
The Cucuteni-Tripolye culture had an heavy influence on ancient populations structure in Eastern Europe.
The settlements had up to 15,000 inhabitants(the largest in Neolithic Europe) and the density was impressive too.
So i can't imagine Dacian ethnogenesis without Cucuteni-Triplye people.The haplogroup that fits this description is I2a2.
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