Genetic study South Albania Tumulus DNA samples

[Riverman]

I didn't say anything about purity, just relative continuity in central and southern Greece from the LBA to IA, which is a fact. You probably thought I was arguing for continuity between BA Greece to modern Greece, try reading more carefully next time.

Not sure what you mean with "absurd haplogroupic situation" in modern Greece, modern Greeks are descended from the Eastern Roman Greek-speaking population (Romioi) and neighbouring Balkanic ethnic groups, nothing really surprising if you look at history and geography.

E-V13 in Greece is not exclusively Albanian, part of it comes from the Roman Greek population of Imperial period and Late Antiquity.

The real question is whether E-V13 was present, and to which extent, in Pre-Roman Greece. It is for sure in the Thracian parts of the country and due to some Thracians trickling in, but not for the wider Greek region and earlier periods of the Late Bronze to Early Iron Age. Also, its possible that local Greco-Thracian E-V13 lineages, just like other classical era Greek lineages, largely died out and being later largely replaced by E-V13 from other sources (like other Roman provinces and Vlach-Albanian migrations). Therefore even if E-V13 was present earlier, it doesn't prove the continuity to the modern E-V13 branches in Greeks, unless we find the same subclades.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I didn't say anything about purity, just relative continuity in central and southern Greece from the LBA to IA, which is a fact. You probably thought I was arguing for continuity between BA Greece to modern Greece, try reading more carefully next time.

Not sure what you mean with "absurd haplogroupic situation" in modern Greece, modern Greeks are descended from the Eastern Roman Greek-speaking population (Romioi) and neighbouring Balkanic ethnic groups, nothing really surprising if you look at history and geography.

E-V13 in Greece is not exclusively Albanian, part of it comes from the Roman Greek population of Imperial period and Late Antiquity.

If you have major population strata happening every 600-700 years in the last 1,400 years why do you think ancient Greece was any different. And that was the point of the argument.

just relative continuity in central and southern Greece from the LBA to IA

Dorians were likely mostly made of J2a and G2a, per north Macedonia samples. That does not nullify their migration though.

E-V13 in Greece is not exclusively Albanian, part of it comes from the Roman Greek population of Imperial period and Late Antiquity.

Greek colonies did not have E-V13 and that is a good indication, pretty much the vast majority entered Greece after imperial collapse. Whether Vlach, Albanian, or Hellenized Thracians being pushed south. It's all non-Greek in origin.

 

[ancientDNAhunter]

I thought I read some papers showing that Greek colonies did have E-V13 and it was a marker of colonization, though the degree of it is still being studied. Corinthians who founded colonies in present day Albania may have also carried the marker to the West. European Journal of Human Genetics volume 24, pages429–436 (2016). I doubt the colonists went to present day Albania and then picked up the marker from whichever natives were there and spread it around with no sign of their own marker any longer.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I don't think there is any E-V13 found in Greek colonies, the mercenaries that were E-V13 all had alien autosomal profiles. If E-V13 was found in Hellenic context, some of the people here would have jumped at my throat just to correct my statement. There are people that are solely devoted to E-V13 such as Riverman, I think he is veteran member of E-V13 project. They are keeping track of all (historical) findings, devoted to their lineage.

 

[Riverman]

The Greek theory was an old one, but the data we got by now largely disproved it. That doesn't mean that there was no E-V13 in ancient Greeks or ancient Greek colonies and that Greek people could have helped to spread E-V13 a bit too. However, they were for sure not the main vector.
It is absolutely clear by now that the main source population for E-V13 was the Daco-Thracian ethnolinguistic groups. From that source group, E-V13 was spread to neighbours and beyond, especially in the LBA-EIA transitional period, the Hallstatt period and during the Scythianised (Vekerzug, Ferigile) , La Tene backflow and Dacian expansion. The rest is Roman, migration period, Slavic and modern redistribution, with some notable founders from Germanic (e.g. in Iberia) and Slavic (much of Eastern and Central Europe) contexts.

All the papers emphasizing Greek colonisation as the main vector are simply outdated. There is currently no data in support of such a scenario. New data can change things once more, but even that new data can only show post-LBA E-V13 Greeks in larger numbers, because one thing is for certain, Mycenaean Greeks were definitely not E-V13 dominated and it came from the relative North (especially Romania-Serbia-Bulgaria) down in the LBA-EIA with Thracians.

 

[bigsnake49]

We don't have enough Greek samples of the different periods to make any grand pronouncements, do we? Maybe EV13 is the halo of the masses and not the elite. So far we have samples from the elite mainly.

 

[Hawk]

We don't have enough Greek samples of the different periods to make any grand pronouncements, do we? Maybe EV13 is the halo of the masses and not the elite. So far we have samples from the elite mainly.

Doesn't work like that, don't have anything against, but the Iron Age culture where V13 was found was a chain of cultures which expanded and were introduced during LBA/EIA turmoil from the Danube/South-Carpathians southwards.

If, it was in classical Greece, it was due to LBA-EIA changes noted in archaeology. That would make them migrants-conquerors instead.

 

[peloponnesian]

All this talk about north to south "conquests" in the LBA and IA but somehow we're finding pure Germanics/NW Europeans (Hacs10, Hacs22, Anderten) from the migration period with an Iron Age southeast European lineage (J-Z1043). Strange..

I'm sure there's some fantastical convoluted scenario that could explain this, maybe the northern conquerors abducted a poor Balkan child who then had a secret love affair with the German chieftain's wife

 

[Omino]

All this talk about north to south "conquests" in the LBA and IA but somehow we're finding pure Germanics/NW Europeans (Hacs10, Hacs22, Anderten) from the migration period with an Iron Age southeast European lineage (J-Z1043). Strange..

I'm sure there's some fantastical convoluted scenario that could explain this, maybe the northern conquerors abducted a poor Balkan child who then had a secret love affair with the German chieftain's wife

the funniest thing about all these claims is that they imagine about invasions from almost anywhere at the same time classical Greeks don't use any word like that(more like descent/migration)

 

[peloponnesian]

the funniest thing about all these claims is that they imagine about invasions from almost anywhere at the same time classical Greeks don't use any word like that(more like descent/migration)

I'm not even talking about ancient Greeks in this case.

This J-L283 line seems like it was introduced to Celts from paleo-Balkan pops and to Germans by Celtic pops so that's 2 south->north movements right there. Same with G-L497, an east Alpine Chalcolithic lineage that made it to Iron Age France, England and historical Gothic groups. There are of course many other examples of east->west and south->north movements from the Roman and Migration periods (including E-V13), but let's leave it at prehistory.

Yet curiously, all the talk in these threads is about massive movements from the north and west that somehow didn't leave any trace in pre-Roman Balkan genetics (except in border regions such as Dalmatia and Pannonia)

 

[Riverman]

All this talk about north to south "conquests" in the LBA and IA but somehow we're finding pure Germanics/NW Europeans (Hacs10, Hacs22, Anderten) from the migration period with an Iron Age southeast European lineage (J-Z1043). Strange..

I'm sure there's some fantastical convoluted scenario that could explain this, maybe the northern conquerors abducted a poor Balkan child who then had a secret love affair with the German chieftain's wife

You mixing up periods and contexts. Highly important is that the later Eastern Germanics were already Christians, oftentimes with a king. Those people were, usually, much more tolerant and less tribalistic, rather tried to exploit other people than annihilate them. It is known, even from the written records, that the Germanic tribes or nations had allies, servants and hostages among them and we also know from the place name research, that in the Germanic areas pre-Germanic survival was way higher than in the Slavic zone. E.g. there is a sharp borderline in areas of Austria between the heavily Slavic areas and the Bavarian one. In the Bavarian we get a higher frequency of Roman and Celtic place names, whereas in the Slavic zone are whole regions with practically no place name survival from Pre-Slavic periods. That speaks for itself.

The further back you go, the more tribalistic a people was, the less lenient they were with the conquered, especially the conquered males. We get multiple mass burials in the Neolithic and Bronze Age which attest to that.

As for the situation in Greece, we can now say for sure that E-V13 was introduced by Daco-Thracian people associated with first Channelled Ware and then Stamped Pottery. Both made their visit to Greece and influenced it, especially the former, but those Urnfield-associated groups were pushed back by local people apparently. This is something which was already noted from the archaeological context.

The Mycenaean Greeks don't look like having any significant amount of E-V13 at all, while by the Iron Age we know that the post-Psenichevo (late Stamped Pottery sphere) people from Thrace had a lots of E-V13.

The question therefore is was E-V13 spread by pre-Psenichevo Urnfield-/Gáva-associated Channelled Ware groups, and if it was, how much of an impact did they have genetically on the Northern Greeks in particular. Again from the archaeological point of view, their entrance and impact on Greece is not debatable, its there. But since we haven't any of these Belegis II-Gáva-related groups sampled yet, we don't know for sure whether they were dominated by E-V13 (what else one may ask considering their impact which can't have been low in the Balkans).

There were distinct cemeteries of related people in Greece, but while the local population adopted customs from them, the distinct settlements and cemeteries did disappear, which can either mean, that they left, being annihilated or were assimilated.

Therefore there are the following hypothesis to prove:
- E-V13 was spread by Channelled Ware cultures in the Balkans. At least secondary centres were primarily in North Eastern Serbia and Southern Romania and North Western Bulgaria in the LBA, from where they spread South. Whether the primary source was the Upper Tisza is yet another hypothesis which needs to be tested.
- Those Channelled Ware people moved into Greece (archaeologically attested) and might or might not have had a genetic impact on the local population. This needs to be tested too, in the regions which were affected. The problem here is that especially those affected regions did, like many Daco-Thracians, oftentimes cremate their dead. But going by the currently available results, it doesn't look like those Eastern Urnfield related groups had a significant impact on the Greeks and most of the E-V13 came in later, due to Thracian contacts.

I posted back on AG a lot of papers dealing with the Morava-Vardar migration deep into Greece. That's, to make that absolutely clear, not debatable. The question is just whether these archaeologically attested people were E-V13 and what impact they had genetically. That's a different question than whether or not a migration/invasion took place, which is a just a reality.

 

[Hawk]

All this talk about north to south "conquests" in the LBA and IA but somehow we're finding pure Germanics/NW Europeans (Hacs10, Hacs22, Anderten) from the migration period with an Iron Age southeast European lineage (J-Z1043). Strange..

I'm sure there's some fantastical convoluted scenario that could explain this, maybe the northern conquerors abducted a poor Balkan child who then had a secret love affair with the German chieftain's wife

The migration from South-Eastern Central Europe toward Balkans and Greece during LBA-EIA was an ongoing talk in archaeology for decades. Like here from 1961, supposed Eastern Hallstatt influences in Attica: https://www.jstor.org/stable/501689

up to recent times, no older than 2-3 years.

But, all of these discussions were always open for debate, doesn't mean that it should all be truth or all be falsified, perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle, perhaps it's all true or falsified, but the archaeological facts were always there, they were not invented from the air, people spotted patterns. As the saying goes "Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems."

I believe that you are ignorant on the field and butthurt, mostly biased against V13 from what i have observed on you. Whatever explanation can be put against, you will wholeheartedly support. Just look at your non-standard example taken as absolute truth.

 

[peloponnesian]

The migration from South-Eastern Central Europe toward Balkans and Greece during LBA-EIA was an ongoing talk in archaeology for decades. Like here from 1961, supposed Eastern Hallstatt influences in Attica: https://www.jstor.org/stable/501689

up to recent times, no older than 2-3 years.

But, all of these discussions were always open for debate, doesn't mean that it should all be truth or all be falsified, perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle. As the saying goes "Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems."

I believe that you are ignorant on the field and butthurt, mostly biased against V13 from what i have observed on you. Whatever explanation can be put against, you will wholeheartedly support. Just look at your non-standard example taken as absolute truth.

It's cool that there are Hallstatt cultural influences in Attica but that doesn't mean anything about genetics because it's been known for a long time that Celts traded with Italians and Greeks. If they start finding samples with an Austria_IA or even Slovenia_IA autosomal profile in ancient Athens then I'll gladly accept that I was wrong but I doubt that will ever happen.

I'm not "biased against E-V13", I just look at the data and the data shows it's a southeastern Euro lineage of indigenous Balkan Chalcolithic origin and most of the ancient samples we've seen so far have a ton of ANF ancestry.

 

[Hawk]

It's cool that there are Hallstatt cultural influences in Attica but that doesn't mean anything about genetics because it's been known for a long time that Celts traded with Italians and Greeks. If they start finding samples with an Austria_IA or even Slovenia_IA autosomal profile in ancient Athens then I'll gladly accept that I was wrong but I doubt that will ever happen.

I'm not "biased against E-V13", I just look at the data and the data shows it's a southeastern Euro lineage of indigenous Balkan Chalcolithic origin and most of the ancient samples we've seen so far have a ton of ANF ancestry.

Eastern Hallstatt were not Proto-Celtic and had nothing to do with them, they were Balkan-Carpathian people. Proto-Celts were from Tumulus-Western Hallstatt horizon but interwined with Eastern Hallstatt/Balkan-Carpathian people and in some occasion mixed with them.

And about trade, it's not something you bring out the first, i don't think the Eastern Hallstatt people were Austrian_IA or Slovenian_IA-like, they should vary in autosomal from heavy Balkan-like ANF to Carpathian-like. Archaeologists talked in details about funerary practices and about more fundamental material cultural changes. Were they real? Perhaps not, perhaps yes, perhaps to some degree.


edit: @Maciamo any way you can improve and fix the bug with the session when you edit the post, it seems when you click the edit the session remembers 1 post save prior to the current one, then when you continue editing you continue to edit the older one and eventually you overwrite leading to confusing line of thoughts. Looks like before editing the post you need to refresh the page to get the correct state.

 

[Riverman]

It's cool that there are Hallstatt cultural influences in Attica but that doesn't mean anything about genetics because it's been known for a long time that Celts traded with Italians and Greeks. If they start finding samples with an Austria_IA or even Slovenia_IA autosomal profile in ancient Athens then I'll gladly accept that I was wrong but I doubt that will ever happen.

I'm not "biased against E-V13", I just look at the data and the data shows it's a southeastern Euro lineage of indigenous Balkan Chalcolithic origin and most of the ancient samples we've seen so far have a ton of ANF ancestry.

There are Eastern Urnfield (Gáva and Belegis II-Gáva related) looking cemeteries in LBA Greece, this has absolutely nothing to do with the Celts. And Eastern Hallstatt was formed, in part, by influences from these Eastern Urnfielders, especially from the Basarabi group. And the Basarabi group is largely identical with the central North Thracian/Dacian group.

We don't have samples from those people yet, but we got the two Himeran mercenaries which might fit the bill.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

An update to the abstract.

Sample size went up from 25 to 200 samples. And it is no longer called a pilot study.

 

[epirus1000]

Hysterical barking, no idea you're rambling about but explain this:



Continuity of what? E-V13, R-BY611, I1, I2a-Dinaric, R1a? LOL

I have to add the continuity of J2b too, from Velika Gruda and Cinamak to the center of Athens.

 

[epirus1000]

An update to the abstract.

Sample size went up from 25 to 200 samples. And it is no longer called a pilot study.

"Our results indicate that populations from Albania, the northern Aegean and Dalmatia form a joint cluster, regarding the Neolithis Caucasus-like gene flow, but also from further inland Balkans in terms of hunter-gatherer ancestry".

"We identified the biological relatedness up to 10th degree both inside of the tumulus and with neighboring sites using IBD analysis"

Both, strong statements!
I hope that there is relatedness with Cinamake tumulus. What are the northern Aegean DNA results in questions?

The paper is becoming more and more interesting.
Hopefully other tumulus, like the Lofkend will be analyzed...

 

[bigsnake49]

Again, conclusions about the presence or not of EV-13 in Greece is based on very few samples. When people talk about Mycenaeans and making conclusions about the rest of Greece to me speaks of scientific close-mindedness. Let's wait for more samples from the different parts of Greece before we make grand pronouncements. We can speculate all we want but that's all it is speculation.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Hopefully other tumulus, like the Lofkend will be analyzed...

Hopefully all are analyzed. Lofkend should be similar if not the same as Kamenice. There was an early attempt to get DNA samples from Lofkend about 10 years ago, all that was shown was quite high ratio of mtDNA U5. Page 185.

The Excavation of the Prehistoric Burial Tumulus at Lofkend, Albania

The burial tumulus of Lofkend lies in one of the richest archaeological areas of Albania (ancient "Illyria"), home to a number of burial tumuli spanning the Bronze and Iron Ages of later prehistory. Some were robbed long ago, others were reused for modern burials; few were excavated under...

www.google.com

I would expect a new attempt is underway.