Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age

[Hawk]

You copied that text from your cousin Bruzmi. He has a brain, I'll grant him that.

There doesn't seem to be archeological evidence that the population of Iader was anything other than Liburnian. Iader was a major Liburnian archeological site. It wasn't Delmatae or something else.

The V13 find in question is Roman, nothing Liburnian/Illyrian about it. Iader was settled by Romans already in the time of Octavian (40-30 BC), so there were real Roman settlers there in significant numbers.

Why wouldn't he be part of the movement of the so called Pannonian-Urnfield which affected that zone and via ships they sailed to South Albania and Greece as Albanian archaeologist Frano Prendi noted. The core Illyrian Glasinac-Mati complex was left untouched by this movement as noted by Matzinger and Lippert book on Illyrians 2021.

If he was a Roman, he would cluster a bit more toward Central Italy. Roman war with Batos happened around 7-9 A.D. So no more than 1-2 generation admixture with local people after this event, that would still show some kind of pattern about his origin something which this sample lacks. Though Odrysian-Thracian cavalrymen were crucial on winning this battle for Romans against Dalmatians they just smashed the Pannonian-Dalmatian rebels when they wanted to plunder Macedonia, i don't think they cared much on assisting Romans in Dalmatia hinterland.

Anyway, let's not rush on conclusions and probably we are lucky enough we get some Iron Age samples.

 

[enter_tain]

Lol, it's just you being pissed off the things not turning as you expected.

Have you suffered a blow to the head recently? I said EV-13 existed in Illyrians. You kept using "lack of EV-13" for proof that Albanians =/= Illyrians.

How about you apologize to us for having to read your garbage theories? I saw Riverman in the other forum going through his mental gymnastics over and over. Two manchildren pretending to be archeologists and sullying the culture/history of a people for your own egos.

 

[Riverman]

You guys are completely delusional thinking you're going to find some "urheimat" of EV-13 dominance. There is nothing scientifically saying that there should be an EV-13 dominant population anymore. Only the original E population tens of thousands of years back.

E-V13 has a very specific phylogeny, with a massive series of founder effects, of which some have no synchrony with other people, but are of a size which means that thousands of males suddenly got an edge over other lineages to multiply on a grande scale in a short time. For such events to take place, any kind of lineage needs a vehicle, a massive advantage, usually because of being part of an expanding people.
The effective population size of E-V13 was for much of its existence about double time that of J-L283 - minimum. Now we know what vast stretches of land J-L283 covered, with the Illyrians, how can this fit with what we know about E-V13, its population size and founder series, if they being restricted to some hilly regions of the Southern Balkans, at the fringe of the Illyrian world, in any area, in this is key, into which constantly people from the North West, North and North East crushed into?
How could they not just keep up the population they got, but expand at the expense of others, as they had to, to account for those numbers of expanding lineages?

Without E-V13 being at least one of the dominant Thracian-Dacian lineages, being dominant in Bosut-Basarabi and Psenichevo-Babadag, and in all likelihood already G?va into Belegis II-G?va before with the Channelled Ware horizon, there is a big problem for any explanation of the E-V13 phylogeny and demography.

Secondly, these cultures I mentioned had a massive impact on the Balkans, they replaced in many areas most of the male population, in some areas made tabula rasa, by largely eliminating the preceding people, in others fusing with locals, but as the dominant element in the mix and for the later cultural evolution. Their impact was just huge and constituted a prehistorical turning point. Archaeologists in most of the Balkans date the Bronze and Iron Age by distinguishing the time before and after Channelled/Fluted/Knobbed Ware spread in the Balkans.
Considering this massive impact, people can only downplay, but never ignore or deny without becoming lunatic, what do people think their effect was?

These highly important cultures for later Greece and Hallstatt, from G?va to Belegis II-G?va into Bosut-Basarabi and early, Eastern Hallstatt, what's their genetic legacy? Nothing? They just conquered most of the Balkans, changed the cultures in the region forever, with a burnt layer in many regions, especially the Morava-Vardary riverine zone, and then they just evaporated? As if nothing ever happened?

Obviously its the most logical thing to do to connect the dots and see the correlation:
- E-V13 needs a massive expansion with a people in the LBA-EIA
- Channelled Ware expansion needs to have had a demographic and genetic effect on the Balkans population in the LBA-EIA

Whereever we have larger samples from areas in which Channelled Ware/Psenichevo-Basarabi horizon had an impact, there is E-V13. Not before, not anywhere else.

You can deny up to the end and ridicule things, but the facts are there.

Have you suffered a blow to the head recently? I said EV-13 existed in Illyrians. You kept using "lack of EV-13" for proof that Albanians =/= Illyrians.

How about you apologize to us for having to read your garbage theories? I saw Riverman in the other forum going through his mental gymnastics over and over. Two manchildren pretending to be archeologists and sullying the culture/history of a people for your own egos.

E-V13 is in Illyrians just as Celtic lineages being incorporated into Germanic. Sure it was in Illyrians, but not the bulk of it and not before the contacts with the Northern/Eastern people which spread it. You will see a sudden increase especially in, as well as North and East of the Morava-Vardar region. Morava valley:

Because that area was settled by Channelled Ware and related people on a much larger scale than e.g. Dalmatia.

 

[Oroku Saki]

Why wouldn't he be part of the movement of the so called Pannonian-Urnfield which affected that zone and via ships they sailed to South Albania and Greece as Albanian archaeologist Frano Prendi noted. The core Illyrian Glasinac-Mati complex was left untouched by this movement as noted by Matzinger and Lippert book on Illyrians 2021.

If he was a Roman, he would cluster a bit more toward Central Italy. Roman war with Batos happened around 7-9 A.D. So no more than 1-2 generation admixture with local people after this event, that would still show some kind of pattern about his origin something which this sample lacks. Though Odrysian-Thracian cavalrymen were crucial on winning this battle for Romans against Dalmatians they just smashed the Pannonian-Dalmatian rebels when they wanted to plunder Macedonia, i don't think they cared much on assisting Romans in Dalmatia hinterland.

Anyway, let's not rush on conclusions and probably we are lucky enough we get some Iron Age samples.

Ofc it could be part of the Urnfield movement. I'm not talking about that, but this burial is a small child buried as a Roman. For ex. glass balsamarium is totally Roman. According to archeological finds it is from the beginning of the 3rd century AD.

What is dubious is using these Iadasinoi to show that he was a non-Liburnian Illyrian. The only non Liburnian Illyrian groups that had influence were Iapodes and Delmatae, if he was an Illyrian he must have been of Delmatae or Iapodian origin. As we have already Delmatae and even Iapodian IA finds and they are J2b2 this is not likely. Except though Iapodes had some Urnfield influence. But I think Delmatae influences were stronger in that area. It is very unlikely this sample is of Delmatae origin.

There were some tribes mentioned but they were all under the Delmatae, Liburni etc umbrella. So Iadasinoi must have been of Iapodian or Delmatae extraction taking this source as a measure of them being Illyrian.

 

[Oroku Saki]

Have you suffered a blow to the head recently? I said EV-13 existed in Illyrians. You kept using "lack of EV-13" for proof that Albanians =/= Illyrians.

How about you apologize to us for having to read your garbage theories? I saw Riverman in the other forum going through his mental gymnastics over and over. Two manchildren pretending to be archeologists and sullying the culture/history of a people for your own egos.

What garbage theories? It is you who spouts nonsense.

Your (and Bruzmi etc.) main point is E-V13 = Pelasgian. It is NOT "Pelasgian" it is IE..

These are late Antiquity Roman era finds. V13 is there in Nyriseg or Ottomani 2000 BC, and in Eastern Gava 1100 BC, in both cases with noticeable Steppe ancestry.

And also let us not forget this find is E-Y30977. Numerically minor early V13 clade found mostly in the Western Balkans. Some low presence in Greece and Macedonia, as well as some Carpathian presence.

Taking anonymous Croatian sample of 1100 haplotypes there are many Croatian haplotypes which could be Y30977.

 

[Hawk]

Ofc it could be part of the Urnfield movement. I'm not talking about that, but this burial is a small child buried as a Roman. For ex. glass balsamarium is totally Roman. According to archeological finds it is from the beginning of the 3rd century AD.

What is dubious is using these Iadasinoi to show that he was a non-Liburnian Illyrian. The only non Liburnian Illyrian groups that had influence were Iapodes and Delmatae, if he was an Illyrian he must have been of Delmatae or Iapodian origin. As we have already Delmatae and even Iapodian IA finds and they are J2b2 this is not likely. Except though Iapodes had some Urnfield influence. But I think Delmatae influences were stronger in that area. It is very unlikely this sample is of Delmatae origin.

There were some tribes mentioned but they were all under the Delmatae, Liburni etc umbrella. So Iadasinoi must have been of Iapodian or Delmatae extraction taking this source as a measure of them being Illyrian.

You mean a Roman from Italy?

 

[Oroku Saki]

You mean a Roman from Italy?

No. But this site included such people. Iader was the place of colonization of "Romans", authors usually mean by that Italy among other places.

 

[Dushman]

Why wouldn't he be part of the movement of the so called Pannonian-Urnfield which affected that zone and via ships they sailed to South Albania and Greece as Albanian archaeologist Frano Prendi noted. The core Illyrian Glasinac-Mati complex was left untouched by this movement as noted by Matzinger and Lippert book on Illyrians 2021.

If he was a Roman, he would cluster a bit more toward Central Italy. Roman war with Batos happened around 7-9 A.D. So no more than 1-2 generation admixture with local people after this event, that would still show some kind of pattern about his origin something which this sample lacks. Though Odrysian-Thracian cavalrymen were crucial on winning this battle for Romans against Dalmatians they just smashed the Pannonian-Dalmatian rebels when they wanted to plunder Macedonia, i don't think they cared much on assisting Romans in Dalmatia hinterland.

Anyway, let's not rush on conclusions and probably we are lucky enough we get some Iron Age samples.

The Thracian Odryssians did not “smash” anyone in Macedonia. The Illyrians went to plunder and went back, there was no indication of invasion. The only defeat the Odryssians contributed in was when the Illyrians were surrounded in Mount Alma by Caecina Severus.

Otherwise, Roman accounts mention that the Thracian cavalry was broken and fled.

None of this is important to the thread, but you and others are too emotionally attached to the newly found origins (Kosovar and Thracian) that is ruining constructive discussions. You basically have an agenda at this point.

Strangely, I see no reason why would someone feel so proud of the cowardly Odryssians and their king at the time that fought both the Bessi and Illyrians like good Roman lapdogs. Reminds me of the past Ottoman pride some people show.

So please let Riverman take the lead on your theories because as strange as it sounds, you’re too emotionally invested against Illyrian J2b2 and Albanians from Albania just like some other members here.

 

[Hawk]

The Thracian Odryssians did not “smash” anyone in Macedonia. The Illyrians went to plunder and went back, there was no indication of invasion. The only defeat the Odryssians contributed in was when the Illyrians were surrounded in Mount Alma by Caecina Severus.

Otherwise, Roman accounts mention that the Thracian cavalry was broken and fled.

None of this is important to the thread, but you and others are too emotionally attached to the newly found origins (Kosovar and Thracian) that is ruining constructive discussions. You basically have an agenda at this point.

Strangely, I see no reason why would someone feel so proud of the cowardly Odryssians and their king at the time that fought both the Bessi and Illyrians like good Roman lapdogs. Reminds me of the past Ottoman pride some people show.

So please let Riverman take the lead on your theories because as strange as it sounds, you’re too emotionally invested against Illyrian J2b2 and Albanians from Albania just like some other members here.

The Sapae-Odryssians did beat the Dalmatian-Pannonians which attempted to plunder in Macedonia and probably would attempt to go further in Thrace and that's very well documented, my point was that they didn't care to go further more than that and hence the E-V13 found there cannot be attributed to Dacians or Thracians rather more generic Pannonian-Urnfield movement.

And your way of reasoning is obviously not focusing on arguments but let's just accuse others of having agendas against you lol and invalidate whatever they say.

 

[Riverman]

Here just another map for what happened in the Late Bronze Age, Channelled Ware/G?va related groups came down from two directions:

One from G?va directly, they did took the Eastern route, the other from Belegis II-G?va, which is basically a G?va daughter culture, but some authors stress differences, while others don't.

This leaves only two options:
1) The original G?va were already rich in E-V13
2) Belegis II-G?va was the main carrier, either by picking it up from locals - since local influences came into Belegis II-G?va, or by founder effects on the way. Like E-V13 could have been strong in G?va already, but got even more dominant by later founder effects in the Belegis II-G?va daughter group.

The earlier groups of the region, like Paracin, Brnjica, surely were also more closely connected to G?va than to the Western, Illyrian neighbours. One of the main distinctions is in the ceramic assemblage and the burial rite, which was for the G?va-related people and their ancestors for thousands of years most of the time cremation.

As one can see, since descending down from the Tisza-Danube area, these Channelled Ware people were always in close contact and neighbourhood with Illyrians, with which they mixed. Sometimes as adstrate, sometimes as substrate, depending on region and period.

Therefore it is absolutely not suprising to have J-L283 in Thracians and E-V13 in Illyrians in the later periods. Anything else would be a surprise. Actually they even went on together in some regions and for some campaigns, possibly, like in the Sea Peoples adventures. The Northern Greeks-Dorians also look like they might have gotten influences from both (Illyrian core Tumulus, Middle Danubian Urnfield and G?va-related).

But to make this absolutely clear: Some sporadic stray finds of singular E-V13 carriers won't solve this. At that time, there were many thousands of E-V13 carriers around, and they grew rapidly in numbers from the LBA to the MIA, only some dents can be recognised, caused by foreign invasions. Typically invasions in Pannonia caused a downfall (Cimmerians, Scythians, Celts, Romans). That alone is quite telling as to where the bulk of them was living, in Eastern Pannonia/Carpathian basin and at the Danube with its tributaries.

 

[Hawk]

Here just another map for what happened in the Late Bronze Age, Channelled Ware/G�va related groups came down from two directions:

One from G�va directly, they did took the Eastern route, the other from Belegis II-G�va, which is basically a G�va daughter culture, but some authors stress differences, while others don't.

This leaves only two options:
1) The original G�va were already rich in E-V13
2) Belegis II-G�va was the main carrier, either by picking it up from locals - since local influences came into Belegis II-G�va, or by founder effects on the way. Like E-V13 could have been strong in G�va already, but got even more dominant by later founder effects in the Belegis II-G�va daughter group.

The earlier groups of the region, like Paracin, Brnjica, surely were also more closely connected to G�va than to the Western, Illyrian neighbours. One of the main distinctions is in the ceramic assemblage and the burial rite, which was for the G�va-related people and their ancestors for thousands of years most of the time cremation.

As one can see, since descending down from the Tisza-Danube area, these Channelled Ware people were always in close contact and neighbourhood with Illyrians, with which they mixed. Sometimes as adstrate, sometimes as substrate, depending on region and period.

Therefore it is absolutely not suprising to have J-L283 in Thracians and E-V13 in Illyrians in the later periods. Anything else would be a surprise. Actually they even went on together in some regions and for some campaigns, possibly, like in the Sea Peoples adventures. The Northern Greeks-Dorians also look like they might have gotten influences from both (Illyrian core Tumulus, Middle Danubian Urnfield and G�va-related).

But to make this absolutely clear: Some sporadic stray finds of singular E-V13 carriers won't solve this. At that time, there were many thousands of E-V13 carriers around, and they grew rapidly in numbers from the LBA to the MIA, only some dents can be recognised, caused by foreign invasions. Typically invasions in Pannonia caused a downfall (Cimmerians, Scythians, Celts, Romans). That alone is quite telling as to where the bulk of them was living, in Eastern Pannonia/Carpathian basin and at the Danube with its tributaries.

Huban/Oroku Saki is right, people like entertain/Bruzmi wants to connect E-V13 with some imaginary farmer Pelasgian servants which in reality they never even lived in Croatia but in and around Aegean.

Then you have people like Excine/Dushman who are too naive to fall down in their agenda. We have been repeating this stuff over and over again and it's boring, especially people jumping off which they never even read a single paragraph on Balkan archeology and chimp when they read posts like these.

 

[Illyria]

I guess the Dardani and Bryges weren't ruled by Illyrians in the Iron Age, must have been a dream. :sadcry: They must have been pure 100% Thracians for thousands of years, the true Proto-Albanians with only E-V13!! So amazing how they resisted the South Slavs, Greeks, Italians, these groups have like ZERO E-V13. We J2b2 are just here for no reason. We're just Roman remnants maybe even Sea Peoples, who's boat broke down and couldn't get materials to fix it, because the E-V13 Proto-Albs were guarding the woods with their rhomphaeias So we decided to just go in the mountains for a while, and then finally come down and blend in with the low land Thracians like some chameleons, when they finally forgot who we were and it was safe to come down :sadcry:

I'm expecting all ancient samples from Albania, Macedonia, and Greece, to be 100% E-V13, all throughout LBA - Roman times

Even though Albanian has linguistic links to Illyrian, and Messapic, I think there's no doubt it is a 100% pure Thracian dialect with only some Latin influence Only the E-V13 people, are the true chosen ones, the pure Thracian Albanians, who speak the ancient, unadulterated, Trojan tongue.

 

[Riverman]

Huban/Oroku Saki is right, people like entertain/Bruzmi wants to connect E-V13 with some imaginary farmer Pelasgian servants which in reality they never even lived in Croatia but in and around Aegean.

Then you have people like Excine/Dushman who are too naive to fall down in their agenda. We have been repeating this stuff over and over again and it's boring, especially people jumping off which they never even read a single paragraph on Balkan archeology and chimp when they read posts like these.

The good thing about Bruzmi is that he contributes something valuable from time to time. Even he recently said that he expects E-V13 to pop up in Naissus, as the most likely sample place. If he says something like that, I can just agree, because its deep in the Channelled Ware territory, East of the Southern Morava river. At that time (Roman era), this should be a zone with a high E-V13 frequency. Thing is just, that's not because of Illyrian replacement, but local people since Channelled Ware made it there.

The Viminacium, Pannonian study and Kapitan Andreevo samples need forever it seems. Those three together alone are big, if we get more data from the samples.

The Austrian, French and Central German samples might prove to be interesting as well, as they are Hallstatt/Celtic related, most of them. However, even in Roman era Lower Austria a large part of the population still cremated, which lowers any chances for finds.

 

[Illyria]

Wait a minute.. do you guys know what Thraco-Illyrian is? :amazed: I never thought I'd discover this, but it's when Illyrians and Thracians mix, and create a new group with influences from BOTH. Apparently this happened a lot in the Southern Balkans. I think we might be on to something.

 

[Hawk]

I guess the Dardani and Bryges weren't ruled by Illyrians in the Iron Age, must have been a dream. :sadcry: They must have been pure 100% Thracians for thousands of years, the true Proto-Albanians with only E-V13!! So amazing how they resisted the South Slavs, Greeks, Italians, these groups have like ZERO E-V13. We J2b2 are just here for no reason. We're just Roman remnants maybe even Sea Peoples, who's boat broke down and couldn't get materials to fix it, because the E-V13 Proto-Albs were guarding the woods with their rhomphaeias So we decided to just go in the mountains for a while, and then finally come down and blend in with the low land Thracians like some chameleons, when they finally forgot who we were and it was safe to come down :sadcry:

I'm expecting all ancient samples from Albania, Macedonia, and Greece, to be 100% E-V13, all throughout LBA - Roman times

Even though Albanian has linguistic links to Illyrian, and Messapic, I think there's no doubt it is a 100% pure Thracian dialect with only some Latin influence Only the E-V13 people, are the true chosen ones, the pure Thracian Albanians, who speak the ancient, unadulterated, Trojan tongue.

This is off topic and of course low IQ sarcasm.

Anything valuable that you can bring to the thread discussion? Or you go on rambling, like you did when Derite was quoting the 2021 Matzinger book on Illyrians. Calling Derite and Matzinger names lol.

 

[Illyria]

Hawk, have you heard of Iron Age Illyrians? Illyrian Dardani? The Bryges in Albania who lived around a billion Illyrian tribes?

My bad bro, must have been pure Thracians.

 

[Hawk]

Hawk, have you heard of Iron Age Illyrians? Illyrian Dardani? The Bryges in Albania who lived around a billion Illyrian tribes?

My bad bro, must have been pure Thracians.

I am the one arguing the sample is very likely Liburno/Dalmatian, most likely Liburnian and you guys keep bringing old bullshit around.

 

[Dushman]

Huban/Oroku Saki is right, people like entertain/Bruzmi wants to connect E-V13 with some imaginary farmer Pelasgian servants which in reality they never even lived in Croatia but in and around Aegean.

Then you have people like Excine/Dushman who are too naive to fall down in their agenda. We have been repeating this stuff over and over again and it's boring, especially people jumping off which they never even read a single paragraph on Balkan archeology and chimp when they read posts like these.

You don’t even know what I stand for, so no point pretending to know through assumptions and grouping me with other people that attack you.

My personal stance is this: I have 0 personal interest where the ancestors of my E-V13 Z5017 lived during Early Bronze Age, how they called themselves, what language they specifically spoke, and what pottery they favoured over the others.

They were part of a bunch of people that lived in the Balkans together, genetically not far off from each other, and the further you go back the more their languages were similar. Sure, some languages might have sounded better than others, but since we will never know how they sounded no point becoming a fangirl of one.

Besides, we all know Autosomal DNA is far more important and I personally am close to both Illyrians, Logkas samples, Cimmerians, Thracians, Etruscan samples, you name it. Do you really I care if my E-V13 ancestor preferred Gava/Psenichevo/Basarabi vases over Glasinac-Mati style? Lol. Don’t get me started on cremation, tumuli, urnfield, whatever other non-DNA related stuff.

The identities we know of today were fully formed around 700 BC onwards, some sooner some later. If Z5017 is found within Illyricum during antiquity, that’s good enough to call it Illyrian because it would indeed be Illyrian autosomally by the time they found it, if not 2-3 generations later.

 

[mount123]

I would advice everyone to stop derailing this thread and not post off topic stuff. The paper in question does not only include Balkan samples so anyone who is interested in samples from other regions will have a hard time sorting out the posts that they are interested in since there is so much off topic posting by certain users.

 

[Excine]

You don’t even know what I stand for, so no point pretending to know through assumptions and grouping me with other people that attack you.

My personal stance is this: I have 0 personal interest where the ancestors of my E-V13 Z5017 lived during Early Bronze Age, how they called themselves, what language they specifically spoke, and what pottery they favoured over the others.

They were part of a bunch of people that lived in the Balkans together, genetically not far off from each other, and the further you go back the more their languages were similar. Sure, some languages might have sounded better than others, but since we will never know how they sounded no point becoming a fangirl of one.

Besides, we all know Autosomal DNA is far more important and I personally am close to both Illyrians, Logkas samples, Cimmerians, Thracians, Etruscan samples, you name it. Do you really I care if my E-V13 ancestor preferred Gava/Psenichevo/Basarabi vases over Glasinac-Mati style? Lol. Don’t get me started on cremation, tumuli, urnfield, whatever other non-DNA related stuff.

The identities we know of today were fully formed around 700 BC onwards, some sooner some later. If Z5017 is found within Illyricum during antiquity, that’s good enough to call it Illyrian because it would indeed be Illyrian autosomally by the time they found it, if not 2-3 generations later.

Well said, people are quick to make hasty generalizations. It's really sad that the administrators of this forum take no action in getting rid of Huban/Assburg. It's inevitable that he'll have another mental breakdown and bring out his true self of what he thinks about Albanians.