The diverse genetic origins of a Classical period Greek army

Greeks in Italy seem to be more "conservative" genetically in comparison with Carthaginians. The bulk of the samples seem to be fully Greek and a proportion seems to be in between Sicanians.

It's clear to see that the colonization was not heavily male-biased. Many or most of the men came with women. The population of the cities grew very large, if most men had not come with women it would not make sense.


Carthaginians in Sardinia seem to be at least 50% native.
 
My results from the Himera sample:

Distance to:Angela
8.72768010Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
8.84477247Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20163
9.24968108Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
9.61541471Baucina_MtFalcone_Sicani_Med_lc:I13128
10.07039225Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13376
10.64036654Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10950
11.48748885Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13391
11.96608541Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224
12.54354814Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13392
13.02239225Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13379
13.37797444Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13390
13.51600903Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13387
13.66643699Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225
14.01006424Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870
14.18050070Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13381
14.19401634Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13395
14.32944870Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13382
14.54101097Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13384
14.75138977Baucina_MtFalcone_Sicani_Med:I13125
14.99513588Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218
15.02451663Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217
15.09980132Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13389
15.11542590Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13383
15.12952412Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13386
15.13336050Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13380
15.22054204Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13394
15.35309741Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13393
15.63564517Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13377
15.77139816Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948
15.90871145Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13385
16.16957637Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952
16.28912521Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13378
16.79834218Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20162
16.81956301Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945
18.57782549Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17866
19.77844787Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7219
20.44258301Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med_lc:I17884
21.84456912Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20160
22.55855492Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166
22.83734223Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17881
24.53851055Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17887
24.62798408Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7221
24.89996386Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20167
26.15365940Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20161
27.64459260Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17879
28.28553340Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432
29.71149104Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17878
30.91633711Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20168
39.45401754Himera_480_BC_Battle_Eurasian-Steppe:I10947
39.65591759Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872


Going by this, the Sicani were quite different from the inhabitants of the Greek colony of Himera.

I wish I could cross check the first six relatively close samples with the isotopic study, but I think the sample numbers are different. I'm not denying that they could all be from somewhere further north than Greece in the Balkans, ike MKD or MNE, since my matches with Bronze and Iron Age samples from there are quite good, but given we don't have very many samples of a similar age from Northern and Central Italy, I wonder if that's also a possibility?


Target: Angela
Distance: 0.3543% / 0.35434401
39.2Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc
27.6Polizzello_Sicani_Med
21.9Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med
8.0Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe
3.3Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc

Distance to:Angela
2.6466525374.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 25.40% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17887
2.8680510964.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 35.40% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13393
2.9079721064.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 35.60% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13380
2.9108645161.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 38.20% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225
2.9430100346.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952 + 53.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870
3.0082459558.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870 + 41.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7219
3.0496380863.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 36.60% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13384
3.1072070164.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 35.60% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13383
3.1400834064.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 35.40% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13386
3.1607154666.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 33.80% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13378
3.2505470465.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 34.60% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13377
3.3138174120.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Eurasian_Steppe_dup_of_I10949:I10944 + 79.20% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13391
3.3138174120.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe_dup_of_I10944:I10949 + 79.20% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13391
3.3248836645.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870 + 54.20% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224
3.3707318045.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945 + 54.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870
3.4252948157.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 42.20% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13391
3.4253165161.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 39.00% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13379
3.4620908866.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 34.00% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13385
3.5184701561.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 38.20% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13390
3.5241927563.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 36.80% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13381
3.5308393032.60% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 67.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870
3.5328952054.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 45.80% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13376
3.5712176064.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870 + 35.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7221
3.5721767623.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe:I10943 + 76.20% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13380
3.6034611764.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 35.20% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13389


Again, the Sicani are quite different from the Greek colonists.

Target: Angela
Distance: 0.3543% / 0.35434401
39.2Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc
27.6Polizzello_Sicani_Med
21.9Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med
8.0Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe
3.3Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc

This PCA puts the results in perspective. Also, look at the difference between the Bronze Age and Iron Age Bulgarian. The Iron Age one is, I believe, the E-V13 carrying one, yes?

0Udl2zO.png
 
Around Greeks but slightly more shifted toward Italy, I guess? If you have an average give it to me so I can add it.

It was included in PCAs, so it must be available, so I'll try to find it.

They were not included because they are low coverage samples.

Well, you included all the low coverage Mycenaean samples, so why not the low coverage Minoan samples? From the PCA including both the Mycenaean and Minoan low coverage samples, the Ogititria Minoan samples draw much closer to the Himera samples.


Why should it? XD

I would think that would be obvious. We have Greek colonists in Sicily. It wouldn't be informative to see how they compare to a Greek colonist in the Northern Mediterranean? We're not exactly swimming in Greek samples from the Iron Age and Classical World. Maybe the sample from Attica would be informative too, to see if the Greeks "did" get more "eastern" after the Iron Age and Classical period.

In this PCA I have included all new samples (excluding Caucasian, Eurasian, and Northeast European for better visualization) plus Minoans, Mycenaeans and Empuries.

qK6dIJN.png


Without low coverage samples

Vg04ueO.png

In a separate post you state that your PCA shows the "mixed" nature of the samples. Am I missing something here? I don't see that at all in the PCA of the samples without the low resolution ones. It shows remarkably Mycenaean like and Empuries like soldiers. Now, you'd have to know their isotope values to know if these were local hoplites, but given that some of the civilian populace also comes out Mycenaean like, I think it's a pretty good bet that they're locals.

There were no normal resolution samples from Himera residents? At least one seems more "northern", but according to the paper on the isotopes, the majority of the residents were raised near there, although they could be the children of migrants.

The Sicani are quite removed. I'm going to look up the samples in between.
 
Greeks in Italy seem to be more "conservative" genetically in comparison with Carthaginians. The bulk of the samples seem to be fully Greek and a proportion seems to be in between Sicanians.

It's clear to see that the colonization was not heavily male-biased. Many or most of the men came with women. The population of the cities grew very large, if most men had not come with women it would not make sense.


Carthaginians in Sardinia seem to be at least 50% native.

If you'll recall, based on my readings about the Phoenician trading empire, I've said for years that the Phoenician/Carthaginian outposts were trading marts and perhaps attached farms run by men. They would have mated with locals, diluting the "Levantine" or "North African" signal. Their armies were almost all mercenaries, many from Spain and northern Italy. In addition to the fact that many of them would just die or leave, the signal they "might" leave would be that of the "home" area of the mercenaries.

That brought nothing but derision, because for their own reasons many in the amateur community were determined to find a lot of "Levantine" in Italy, and the Phoenicians/Carthaginians were supposed to be a big part of that.

As for the Greeks, it's a mixed bag. There is documentary evidence about young men being sent to establish colonies. However, that wouldn't necessarily be the case in every area. The Empuries sample seems fully Greek, so they must have brought their own women with them. On the other hand, the colonists in Asia Minor seem to have married local women. Even if the colony was started by young men, women from the home polis might have arrived later.

At any rate, it's always been clear that change in genome for an area requires folk migration. The Phoenicians were traders. There was no folk migration involved. The Greeks were different. Their rocky home couldn't support them. There was mass migration out, which did indeed affect the colonial areas.
 
It's crazy how Empuries fits right in the middle of the cluster nearly 100% identical with the average. Very good luck that scientists got those 2 samples pretty early.
Some Mycenaeans seem even closer to Aegean Islanders (more Southern) than to Southern Italians but similarly in a "western direction". I think the lack of the samples to show all the genetic variation is inflating the Anatolian admixture by 10% in for example Cretans. Sometimes Cretans come up as more Anatolian than Greek.

Also look from how far some people have come. This could be lesson to not look at solely West Anatolia but beyond that when we discuss eastern shifts occurring in the Iron Age.
 
It's crazy how Empuries fits right in the middle of the cluster nearly 100% identical with the average. Very good luck that scientists got those 2 samples pretty early.
Some Mycenaeans seem even closer to Aegean Islanders (more Southern) than to Southern Italians but similarly in a "western direction". I think the lack of the samples to show all the genetic variation is inflating the Anatolian admixture by 10% in for example Cretans. Sometimes Cretans come up as more Anatolian than Greek.

Also look from how far some people have come. This could be lesson to not look at solely West Anatolia but beyond that when we discuss eastern shifts occurring in the Iron Age.

This paper is now the 3rd recent one on ancient Italian DNA that has documented an Iranian_Neolithic signal that seems independent of any Steppe Admixture that came into Italy and Sicily which has been typically modeled as EHG+CHG. CHG and Iran_Neo being highly related/similar in terms of genetic profile. The Antonio et al 2019 (ancient Lazio/Rome) paper and the Fernandes et al 2020 paper (Steppe and Iranian ancestry) dealing with Bronze Age Sardinia and Sicily.

I think perhaps looking towards Iran and Iran_Neolithic related ancestry is one place to look beyond West Anatolia when trying to document more eastern shifts that you are alluding to. Again, we have 3 papers now in the extant literature that document an Iranian_Neo signal independent of Steppe admixture that had CHG/Iran_Neo type ancestry.
 
Around Greeks but slightly more shifted toward Italy, I guess? If you have an average give it to me so I can add it.




They were not included because they are low coverage samples.


Well, you included other low coverage samples like some of the Mycenaeans, so why not low coverage Minoan samples?



Why should it? XD

We're not exactly swimming in Classical Era Greek samples. We have Greek colonists in Sicily. You don't think it would be informative to see how they compare to a Greek colonist on the coast of Spain, especially since the authors say some of the mercenaries might have come from there?

In this PCA I have included all new samples (excluding Caucasian, Eurasian, and Northeast European for better visualization) plus Minoans, Mycenaeans and Empuries.

It would be helpful to see all the Southern Arc samples, imo.
 
In a separate post you state that your PCA shows the "mixed" nature of the samples. Am I missing something here? I don't see that at all in the PCA of the samples without the low resolution ones. It shows remarkably Mycenaean like and Empuries like soldiers.

I was referring to "Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med" and the northern end of the "Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med" clusters, which are halfway between IA Sicilians and Mycenaeans although they are few samples overall.

There were no normal resolution samples from Himera residents?

If you look closely there is only 1 of good coverage in the PCA, it falls in the southern end of the Mycenaean cluster near "Sephardic_Jew".

This PCA puts the results in perspective. Also, look at the difference between the Bronze Age and Iron Age Bulgarian. The Iron Age one is, I believe, the E-V13 carrying one, yes?

I5769 is a female. By the way, the plot in addition to being old was done with Eurogenes K15, a calculator that I personally do not recommend (Eurogenes K13 is better).
 
Well, you included other low coverage samples like some of the Mycenaeans, so why not low coverage Minoan samples?

In the first PCA I posted in this thread I used only Sicilian samples, not Mycenaeans. I've only put the Mycenaeans (both good and bad coverage) in those 2 new ones I posted a few hours ago.

It would be helpful to see all the Southern Arc samples, imo.

I may post it later but it will be a mess to visualize, it is too many samples.
 
@Salento,

Were the new HO modern samples for Greece and Italy made available too? If so, I think it would be great to have those as well. Sorry to make to be making requests like that, but it would be much appreciated.

I did not find a downloadable geno-data link for the new Greece and Italy modern samples.
Listing the new samples below, and if anyone knows how to locate them, please lets us know.

... by Alessandro Achilli, Anna Olivieri, Hovirag Lancioni:

VT035Italian_CentralBolsena (VT) / Northern Latium
PG722Italian_CentralFabriano (AN) / Marche
PG470Italian_CentralAscoli Piceno (AP) / Marche
PG739Italian_CentralCa' De Cio (AR) / Southern Tuscany
PG128Italian_CentralPerugia Case Nuove (PG) / Umbria
PG734Italian_CentralPerugia (PG) / Umbria
PG2012_477Italian_CentralBettolle (SI) / Southern Tuscany
PG720Italian_CentralAscoli Piceno (AP) / Marche
PG2012_625Italian_CentralPerugia (PG) / Umbria
PG775Italian_CentralPerugia Stazione (PG) / Umbria
PG2012_642Italian_CentralCupramontana (AN) / Marche
PG723Italian_CentralPerugia Montegrillo (PG) / Umbria
PG2012_639Italian_CentralArezzo (AR) / Southern Tuscany
PG2012_242Italian_CentralCastiglion Fiorentino (AR) / Southern Tuscany
PG2012_647Italian_CentralChiusi (SI) / Southern Tuscany
PG731Italian_CentralMontepulciano (SI) / Southern Tuscany
ALP211Italian_NorthModena (MO) / Emilia-Romagna
ALP156Italian_NorthPiacenza (PC) / Emilia-Romagna
ALP202Italian_NorthBassano del Grappa (VI) / Veneto
ALP278Italian_NorthBorgonovo Val Tidone (PC) / Emilia-Romagna
ALP134Italian_NorthCremona(CR) / Lombardy
ALP603Italian_NorthVernate (MI) / Lombardy
ALP533Italian_NorthTorino (TO) / Piedmont
ALP67Italian_NorthBorgo Val di Taro (PR) / Emilia-Romagna
ALP392Italian_NorthBusseto (PR) / Emilia-Romagna
ALP68Italian_NorthAlessandria (AL) / Piedmont
ALP73Italian_NorthCuneo (CN) / Piedmont
ALP108Italian_NorthTreviso (TV) / Veneto
ALP342Italian_NorthParma (PR) / Emilia-Romagna
ALP277Italian_NorthDomodossola (VB) / Piedmont
ALP481Italian_NorthSappada (BL) / Veneto
ALP28Italian_NorthFerrara (FE) / Emilia-Romagna
ALP76Italian_NorthBergamo (BG) / Lombardy
Nei27Italian_NorthNogarè (TN) / Trentino-Alto Adige
Nei18Italian_NorthTaio (TN) / Trentino-Alto Adige
ALP597Italian_SouthCetraro (CS) / Calabria
ALP129Italian_SouthReggio Calabria (RC) / Calabria
PuG46Italian_SouthMartano (LE) / Apulia
PuG12Italian_SouthSoleto (LE) / Apulia
PuG20Italian_SouthCalimera (LE) / Apulia
PG2012_398Italian_SouthLamezia Terme (CZ) / Calabria
PuG37Italian_SouthSoleto (LE) / Apulia
NaN129RTItalian_SouthPortici (NA) / Campania
PG2012_699Italian_SouthMileto (VV) / Calabria
PuG33Italian_SouthSternatia (LE) / Apulia
PG2012_424Italian_SouthAmendolara (CS) / Calabria
PuG74Italian_SouthZollino (LE) / Apulia
ALP374Italian_SouthBenevento (BN) / Campania
PuG28Italian_SouthMartano (LE) / Apulia
PuG58Italian_SouthMartano (LE) / Apulia
PuG17Italian_SouthSoleto (LE) / Apulia
PuG66Italian_SouthZollino (LE) / Apulia

... by George Stamatoyannopoulos:

AHA15GreekLefkasio/Ahaia/Greek
ARG1GreekArgos/Argolida/Greek
ARK3GreekPerdikoneri/Messenia/Greek
ARK19GreekPalaiohori/Arkadia/Greek
CYCL1GreekKoumaros/Cyclades/Greek
CYCL2GreekAmorgos/Cyclades/Greek
CYCL3GreekAmorgos/Cyclades/Greek
CYCL12GreekTarampados/Cyclades/Greek
CYCL16GreekTriovasalos/Cyclades/Greek
CYCL19GreekMilos/Cyclades/Greek
CYCL22GreekKea/Cyclades/Greek
CYCL23GreekKea/Cyclades/Greek
DOD1GreekParadisi/Dodecanese/Greek
DOD2GreekLardos/Dodecanese/Greek
DOD3GreekLaerma/Dodecanese/Greek
DOD4GreekArchagelos/Dodecanese/Greek
DOD5GreekMalonas/Dodecanese/Greek
DOD6GreekVati/Dodecanese/Greek
DOD7GreekRodos/Dodecanese/Greek
IL4GreekDouneika/Aitolokarnania/Greek
IL21GreekSkliros/Messenia/Greek
KOR42GreekKariotika/Korinthia/Greek
LAK8GreekNeapoli/Laconia/Greek
MAK103GreekHortiatis/Thessaloniki/Greek
MAK118GreekEpanomi/Thessaloniki/Greek
MAK127GreekKassandrino/Halkidiki/Greek
MAK147GreekNikisiani/Kavala/Greek
MAK175GreekPalaiohori/Halkidiki/Greek
MAK196GreekParthenonas/Halkidiki/Greek
MAK249GreekPoroi/Pieria/Greek
MAK337GreekDoxato/Drama/Greek
MES19GreekFiliatra/Messenia/Greek
MES32GreekKyparissia/Messenia/Greek
CRE_AN_18CretanAno Horio/Lasithi/Greek
CRE_AV_28CretanAgios Thomas/Heraklion/Greek
CRE_IER_20CretanChristos/Lasithi/Greek
CRE_KAN_18CretanKandanos/Chania/Greek
CRE_KIS_27CretanKalathenes/Chania/Greek
CRE_MOI_17CretanZaros/Heraklion/Greek
CRE_NE_11CretanVrachasi/Lasithi/Greek
CRE_SIT_4CretanPapayannades/Lasithi/Greek
CRE_SIT_8CretanZiros/Lasithi/Greek
CRE_TZ_10CretanTzermiado/Lasithi/Greek
CRE_VIA_25CretanVianos/Heraklion/Greek
 
I am surprised that there are no samples from Thrace and pretty much nothing from Epiros and western Macedonia and Ionian Islands.
 
I am surprised that there are no samples from Thrace and pretty much nothing from Epiros and western Macedonia and Ionian Islands.
those are just the new modern samples, … they also used modern samples from 2019, 2014, 2012, … that we already have.
 
those are just the new modern samples, … they also used modern samples from 2019, 2014, 2012, … that we already have.

Ah, thanks @Salento
 
Sicani sample:


Target: Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13389
Distance: 361.6772% / 3.61677183
78.0Sardinian
16.4Greek_Icaria
5.6Greek_Pontus

Distance to:Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13389
3.36640758ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15621
4.88876262BGR_MalakPreslavets_N:I1295
5.18474686ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I14160
5.34237775BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N:I17981
5.48140493ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7137
5.51490707ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I20806
6.08691219ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I20810
6.13828152BGR_MalakPreslavets_N:I2216
6.24502202ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL_sister.I7133:I15622
6.26147746ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I18116
6.33943215ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15616
6.79711704ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15618
7.08920306ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7131
7.10983825HRV_GornjaVrba_MN:I18827
7.35034013ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15620
7.71698128ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7133
7.86775063ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7130
7.89919616ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7127
7.90011392ROU_N_outlier1:I7126
8.08182529SRB_ChLBA:I17914
8.10894568ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I18115
8.37196512SRB_ChLBA:I17915
8.58949940CYP_PPNB:I4207
8.64190951ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_Chl_possible.dup.I18154_1d.rel.I7137:I18117_d
8.66002309ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I14162

It's looking more likely to me that the Sicani were probably autochthonous, and the ancient writers got it wrong, AGAIN, about the source of the ancient Italian populations.

These people look mainly European farmer like, maybe 75% Anatolian Neolithic, and some WHG, and then maybe some steppe and/or Iran Neo, so definitely Southern European like, but not Mycenaean Greek like or Greek colonist like.

Of course, different tribes in different parts of Sicily and then mainland Italy itself may be different.

We'll have to analyze the samples more carefully once we know we have the official versions.
I
Target: Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13389
Distance: 361.6772% / 3.61677183
78.0Sardinian
16.4Greek_Icaria
5.6Greek_Pontus
Target: Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13389
Distance: 361.6772% / 3.61677183
78.0Sardinian
16.4Greek_Icaria
5.6Greek_Pontus
 
Sicani sample:


Target: Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13389
Distance: 361.6772% / 3.61677183
78.0Sardinian
16.4Greek_Icaria
5.6Greek_Pontus

Distance to:Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13389
3.36640758ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15621
4.88876262BGR_MalakPreslavets_N:I1295
5.18474686ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I14160
5.34237775BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N:I17981
5.48140493ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7137
5.51490707ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I20806
6.08691219ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I20810
6.13828152BGR_MalakPreslavets_N:I2216
6.24502202ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL_sister.I7133:I15622
6.26147746ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I18116
6.33943215ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15616
6.79711704ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15618
7.08920306ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7131
7.10983825HRV_GornjaVrba_MN:I18827
7.35034013ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15620
7.71698128ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7133
7.86775063ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7130
7.89919616ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7127
7.90011392ROU_N_outlier1:I7126
8.08182529SRB_ChLBA:I17914
8.10894568ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I18115
8.37196512SRB_ChLBA:I17915
8.58949940CYP_PPNB:I4207
8.64190951ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_Chl_possible.dup.I18154_1d.rel.I7137:I18117_d
8.66002309ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I14162

It's looking more likely to me that the Sicani were probably autochthonous, and the ancient writers got it wrong, AGAIN, about the source of the ancient Italian populations.

These people look mainly European farmer like, maybe 75% Anatolian Neolithic, and some WHG, and then maybe some steppe and/or Iran Neo, so definitely Southern European like, but not Mycenaean Greek like or Greek colonist like.

Of course, different tribes in different parts of Sicily and then mainland Italy itself may be different.

We'll have to analyze the samples more carefully once we know we have the official versions.
I
Target: Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13389
Distance: 361.6772% / 3.61677183
78.0Sardinian
16.4Greek_Icaria
5.6Greek_Pontus

If not autochthonous, then from mainland Italy. Very close to Sicily Bronze Age samples, but also the closest I've seen later samples come to Central Italian Neolithic. If people like this existed in Sicily in the Iron Age, then why are all the papers about Iron Age Southern Italy only about Italics and Greeks?

Distance to:Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13389
3.03631355Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10372:Fernandes_2020
3.36640758ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15621
4.15817268Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3878:Fernandes_2020
4.82849873Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II:I11442:Fernandes_2020
4.88876262BGR_MalakPreslavets_N:I1295
5.18474686ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I14160
5.32063906Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10373:Fernandes_2020
5.34114220Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3876:Fernandes_2020
5.34237775BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N:I17981
5.40682902Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II:I3123:Fernandes_2020
5.48140493ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7137
5.51490707ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I20806
6.08691219ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I20810
6.11332970Sicily_MN_Stretto_Partanna:I4065:Fernandes_2020
6.13828152BGR_MalakPreslavets_N:I2216
6.24502202ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL_sister.I7133:I15622
6.26147746ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I18116
6.33943215ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15616
6.79711704ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15618
6.94822279Sicily_MBA_Buffa_Cave_II:I4109:Fernandes_2020
7.08920306ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7131
7.10983825HRV_GornjaVrba_MN:I18827
7.35034013ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15620
7.41258389Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II:I3125:Fernandes_2020
7.71698128ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7133
7.72373614C_Italian_N:R17:Antonio_2019
7.86775063ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7130
7.89919616ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7127
7.90011392ROU_N_outlier1:I7126
7.94647721Sicily_EBA_Contrada_Paolina_Castellucciana:I7807:Fernandes_2020
8.08182529SRB_ChLBA:I17914
8.10894568ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I18115
8.32396540Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II:I3124:Fernandes_2020
8.37196512SRB_ChLBA:I17915
8.58949940CYP_PPNB:I4207
8.64190951ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_Chl_possible.dup.I18154_1d.rel.I7137:I18117_d
8.66002309ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I14162
8.89807844ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7135
8.91159918ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL_brother.I11906:I7134
9.12221464ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I14166
9.31020945Sicily_EBA_Contrada_Paolina_Castellucciana:I7774_d:Fernandes_2020
9.50671342ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15619
9.50742867ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I14165
9.56288659Sicily_MN_Stretto_Partanna:I4062:Fernandes_2020
9.64025933BGR_Stambolovo_IA:I15844
9.98194871C_Italian_N:R3:Antonio_2019
10.06071568BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N:I11270
10.17709192ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7136
10.17715579ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I14159
10.18056482C_Italian_N:R19:Antonio_2019
 
This is my closest match, a soldier described by the authors as a mixture of central and Balkan ancestry.
Distance to:Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
2.93308711Italian_Veneto
3.07253967Italian_Piedmont
3.26599143Italian_Lombardy
4.01203190Italian_Liguria
4.52730604Italian_Emilia
5.03992187Swiss_Italian
5.26428533Italian_Friuli_VG
5.57457622Italian_Trentino
5.90759680Italian_Tuscany
8.14992025Italian_Romagna
8.46255871Italian_Aosta_Valley
9.60735656French_Corsica
9.83466827Italian_Umbria
10.21314349Macedonian_Vardar
10.31406806Spanish_Baleares
10.58307139Albanian_Kosovo
10.72228054Macedonian_South
10.87933362Macedonian_East
11.30645391Macedonian_Polog
11.36434336Italian_Lazio
11.42829821Portuguese
11.50418463Italian_Marche
11.63881867Spanish_Canarias
11.68290632Greek_Macedonia
11.83536227Austrian_Tyrol

Closest ancient match for it from Southern Arc samples:
Distance to:Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
2.78644935HRV_BA:I18712
2.98871210MNE_LBA:I14498
3.23542887MNE_LBA:I13172
3.42943144HRV_Cetina_BA:I18088
3.47201671ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I16253
3.64773903MNE_LBA:I13775
3.69039293SRB_BA:I16803
3.77361895HRV_BA:I5074
4.03637213MNE_LBA:I13168
4.12242647MNE_LBA:I13169
4.12408778SRB_BA:I17913
4.51106418MKD_Anc:I8112
4.98124482MKD_Anc:I10384
4.99731928HRV_Cetina_BA:I19027
5.04593896HRV_Anc_brother.I18831:I18830
5.07790311HRV_Cetina_BA:I18745
5.10918780MNE_LBA_brother.I13169_son.or.brother.I13776:I13777
5.12647052HRV_BA:I5080
5.17966215MKD_Anc:I10377
5.31776269HRV_IA:I5729
5.42506221SRB_BA:I17912
5.44027573HRV_Cetina_BA:I18752
5.54583628MKD_Anc:I10383
5.57596628MNE_LBA:I13171
5.60107133MNE_LBA:I14501
Another mercenary probably from outside Greece or even the Greek world:
Distance to:Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
7.64100124French_Corsica
12.37324937Italian_Tuscany
12.42813679Italian_Marche
12.43657509Italian_Romagna
12.95873836Italian_Umbria
13.19374094Italian_Liguria
13.25838225Italian_Emilia
13.94157452Italian_Lazio
14.84614765Italian_Lombardy
15.66525135Italian_Molise
15.78862249Italian_Abruzzo
16.13977075Italian_Campania
16.67125970Italian_Piedmont
16.85838664Sardinian
17.26569431Italian_Sicily
17.39979885Italian_Veneto
18.01935071Italian_Basilicata
18.02502427Albanian
18.39592890Italian_Calabria
18.47916293Swiss_Italian
18.50314568Greek_Athens
18.54495349Italian_Apulia
18.66551901Ashkenazi_Jew
18.74542611Greek_Central
19.42878792Greek_Thrace

His closest ancient match:Bulgarian Early Bronze. Don't have time to look up their Admixture. Are they the steppe admixed ones?
Distance to:Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
4.70157420BGR_ChL:I2428
4.99663887BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19456
5.20632308BGR_Stambolovo_IA:I15844
6.26763113BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19455
6.92255733GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13580
6.95267574BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I19494
7.17226603BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20183
7.24458418ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I18154
7.29233159BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20181
7.56946497GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I13518:I13506_d
7.65461952BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20185
7.67619046MKD_Anc:I7233
7.91715858ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I18115
8.02812556BGR_MalakPreslavets_N:I1295
8.05314845BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N:I17981
8.12438305GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13428
8.85305597MKD_Anc:I10387
8.91196948MKD_Anc:I10390
9.03008306BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19451
9.16228138BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20186
9.24948107BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19452
9.32417289BGR_Smyadovo_EBA_contam:I2176
9.48526225ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_Chl_possible.dup.I18154_1d.rel.I7137:I18117_d
9.77989264MKD_Anc:I10391
9.79789773GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13579

If he's a local hoplite, some good Mycenaean like matches.

My closest Sicani match, far from Himera, so unlikely to be admixed with Greek colonists:
Distance to:Baucina_MtFalcone_Sicani_Med_lc:I13128
8.87078914French_Corsica
13.22172833Italian_Tuscany
13.64501374Italian_Romagna
13.89294872Italian_Marche
13.90777121Italian_Emilia
13.95357302Italian_Liguria
14.25368373Italian_Umbria
15.13331094Italian_Lombardy
15.40216543Italian_Lazio
16.52666331Sardinian
17.14383563Italian_Piedmont
17.28939270Italian_Molise
17.40661943Italian_Abruzzo
17.80526888Italian_Veneto
17.81488703Italian_Campania
18.64958612Swiss_Italian
18.97385570Italian_Sicily
19.04572655Albanian
19.64594106Italian_Basilicata
19.78599505Greek_Athens
20.00009500Greek_Central
20.05098751Italian_Apulia
20.17194091Italian_Calabria
20.21205333Italian_Trentino
20.30590308Spanish_Canarias

Closest ancient match:Bulgaria early Bronze. Again, given the modern matches, probably the steppe admixed samples.
Distance to:Baucina_MtFalcone_Sicani_Med_lc:I13128
5.54622394BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19456
6.33971608BGR_Stambolovo_IA:I15844
7.34815623BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19455
7.53493198BGR_MalakPreslavets_N:I1295
7.61467005ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I18154
7.71061606BGR_ChL:I2428
7.91028444GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13580
8.07687440BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I19494
8.16639455ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I18115
8.43653365BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20181
8.92420305BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N:I17981
8.96887953BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20183
9.23262693BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20185
9.26365479MKD_Anc:I7233
9.34211967MKD_Anc:I10387
9.85924946GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I13518:I13506_d
9.94509930MKD_Anc:I10390
10.00169986BGR_Smyadovo_EBA_contam:I2176
10.02298359BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19451
10.08827537BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19452
10.31731554GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13428
10.47995229ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_Chl_possible.dup.I18154_1d.rel.I7137:I18117_d
10.63376697BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20186
10.80608162ROU_N_outlier1:I7126
11.12893077MKD_Anc:I10391

Himera Civilian Population:
Distance to:Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166
7.00146413Greek_Izmir
7.53941642Greek_Foca
8.16654150Greek_Fournoi
8.36376112Greek_Icaria
8.52355560Ashkenazi_Jew
8.68658161Moldovan_Jewish
8.76209450Greek_Crete
9.00281067Greek_Athens
9.62135645Italian_Apulia
9.82482061Greek_Lemnos
10.11706973Italian_Molise
10.17894887Greek_Central
10.23899409Italian_Campania
10.38479658Italian_Calabria
10.73117887Greek_Kos
11.00641631Italian_Sicily
11.28183939Greek_Rhodes
11.28560145Italian_Abruzzo
11.44035402Greek_Peloponnese
11.69727319Italian_Basilicata
12.68192809Italian_Jew
12.96513401Albanian
13.13688319Greek_Thessaloniki
13.89746020Sephardic_Jew
13.95732782Greek_Thrace

The above sample compared to ancient samples from the Southern Arc:

Distance to:Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166
6.52941039TUR_Marmara_Balıkesir_Byz:I14831
7.76007088GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368
8.39931545TUR_Marmara_Balıkesir_Byz:I14820
8.50581566TUR_Marmara_İznik_Y.kapı_Byz:I14840
8.57726646TUR_BlackSea_Samsun_Anc_A:I5249
8.79564097TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Stratonikeia_Byz:I20187
9.27222196BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I19490
9.64222485BGR_Anc:I19500
9.64535121MKD_Anc_outlier2:I10167
9.71665580TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Stratonikeia_Byz:I20147
9.75084099TUR_Marmara_Balıkesir_PostMdv:I14823
10.20658611ALB_PostMdv:I14686
10.60652629TUR_Marmara_Balıkesir_Byz:I14832
10.75888935HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15462
10.88683609GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577
11.48303531GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13517_d
11.58518019HRV_Cetina_BA_1d.rel.I19027.possible.1d.rel.I19020:I19022
11.81717394MKD_Anc:I10389
11.84901262TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Samantaş_Byz:I20265
11.92806774ALB_Mdv:I14622
11.94731351GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19366
11.99140943BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I19495
12.01849824TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Samantaş_Byz:I20266
12.27979234TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Samantaş_Byz_brother.I20265:I20264
12.33088805TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Samantaş_Byz:I20259

So, even the inhabitants of the Greek colony who might have been admixed with the very different Sicani seem quite close to an EIA Greek in the Palace of Nestor.

I'm always slightly amazed how such an old calculator can come so close to modern qpAdm and Admixture analyses of ancient samples.

Both of those Balkan/Central-European are E-V13, which is interesting and might hint they came from similar region. What is your guess?
 
Both of those Balkan/Central-European are E-V13, which is interesting and might hint they came from similar region. What is your guess?

Given they're so close to HRV and MNE Bronze Age, and Albanian Cinamak ancient, I'd say coastal western Balkans makes sense.

Particularly makes sense also given where we found precursor of E-V13.

The closeness to modern Northern Italian populations doesn't indicate to me that they came from Italy, as northern Italians often get very close matches to these Bronze Age and Iron Age western Balkan peoples. I do myself.

I'd need to see strontium isotope analysis to be sure, but that paper said the "non-local" Himera samples came from either more mountainous locales or places from a more northern latitude. So that also fits.

(The isotope analysis might be able to distinguish between the western Balkans and the "Thracian" hypothesis which many seem to prefer.)

This is all speculation, of course, but I think it's informed speculation.
 
… I10944 and I10949 bams are duplicates, they’ve been the same for a month, … see the size of the bams below:

9VESihy.gif


rGpgkCX.gif
I reviewed the Y Haplogroup of the duplicate bams, it matches I10944 Himera 480-BC-Battle Eurasian-Steppe, … disregard / delete I10949, as of now.
 

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