Tracing back Phoenician & Arabic DNA in modern Spaniards using Haak 2015's admixtures

Doesn't matter if they didn't penetrate inland. Genes flow with intermarriages over time, and 3000 years is more than enough to diffuse genes over most of the peninsula.

Check the new major study of Catalan, Valencian and Balearic Y chromosomes. Even in north-east Spain, which wasn't colonised at all by the Phoenicians, there is 1% of R1b-M343 (almost surely V88), 2.2% of Southwest Asian E1b1b (V22 + M123), 1% of J1-P58 and 1% of T. So even if I don't include the 7.3% of J2a and the 3.9% of G2a, which are both of Near Eastern origin too, there is already over 5% of clearly Southwest lineages. Imagine what it must be in Andalusia. Closer to 15%, I would think.

But let's not forget that the main Y-haplogroup of the Phoenicians was J2a, which could have accounted for a third of all lineages. It would be reasonable to assume that about half of the J2a in Spain is not Roman or Greek, but rather Phoenician or Arabic. Some G2a is also Phoenician or Arabic. It's not all Neolithic or Roman. So the proportion of Southwest Asian (Phoenician + Arabic) Y-DNA in north-east Spain is closer to 10%, while in Andalusia it could exceed 20%.
Like I said, the study includes the Balearic Islands. Which is not exactly "North-East Spain".
 
I disagree; The Basques and Catalans look totally different from Andalusians. Basques and Catalans look more Northern European and look very similar; while Andalusians fit the Mediterranean phenotype. Basques look more like Celts.

have talked to Spanish people before; and it is evident to me that a few of them do have Semitic admixture in the South; more than people would realize. The Southern Portuguese have a lot of this admixture the most. Even Italians appear more European than Southern Portuguese or Southern Spanish people.

I disagree that haplogroup T is of Arabic origin though; I am guessing it has more to do with Greco-Roman colonization.

Some of Andalusian culture isn't even European in origin and is clearly, evidently North African. I've even gotten Spaniards to admit to me that they believe they have some Arabic ancestry. There are even old Mosques still in Andalusia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque–Cathedral_of_Córdoba


Why is everyone taking this personally? As if you have to be politically correct on this board....using terms like "white", "European", or "Arab" are not bad or derogatory. Even Albanians I would consider "white people" or "Europeans" genetically more so than Southern Iberians.

Strange that you should say that, since the more typically Near Eastern features, like aquiline facial profiles, are actually more common among the strongly Dinaricized Italians and southern Balkans than the predominantly West-Mediterranean and very little Dinaric-influenced southern Spaniards/Portuguese. Get better acquainted with anthropology.

Regarding mosques: you can find old mosques in Greece and all over the Balkans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islami...#.28Ahmed.29_Al.E2.80.93Aga_Mosque_.281268.29


Your point is? You can also find ancient temples in Italy devoted to Syrian and Egyptian gods:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Isis_(Pompeii)

Again, your point is?

Adopting the religion of other peoples does not make any inferences about their actual ethnic origins. Most Muslims in Iberia were in fact just native converts to that religion.
 
This thread is so full of inaccuracies. How come Arabs contribute 8% DNA when there has never been an arab population here to begin with ? The Arabs during the muslim occupation whrere only the elites (the Califas) and the armies, but never part of the population, it was never massive. Here is an extract from the book "The Preching of Islam; A history of the propagation of the MUslim Faith." , where it says :

"one point only in the evidence may be mentioned, derived from a letter written in 1311, in which it is stated that of the 200,000 Muhammadans then living in the city of Granada, not more than 500 were of Arab descent, all the rest being descendants of converted Spaniards."

8% is actually not a really big contribution, even if we accept the OP's speculations leading to such a figure based on only this study (which does not mean is necessarily supported by other studies, like Hellenthal et al. 2014, for example, which found practically no Middle Eastern input in Spain.) It still would show that the Arabs were only a small minority of the population, thus confirming the established historical record that you are referring to.
 
8% is actually not a really big contribution, even if we accept the OP's speculations leading to such a figure based on only this study (which does not mean is necessarily supported by other studies, like Hellenthal et al. 2014, for example, which found practically no Middle Eastern input in Spain.) It still would show that the Arabs were only a small minority of the population, thus confirming the established historical record that you are referring to.

Perhaps like the Magyars were to most Hungarians? A ruling minority that contributed linguistically and culturally but not genetically?
 
I forgot to mention that the Jews could also have brought the same admixture and haplogroups as the Phoenicians and the Arabs.
 
I haven't had the time to go over this study, so a couple of pertinent questions and observations regarding the subject of the thread for those who have already examined the paper:

1- Where did the samples labelled "Spanish" come from? The admixture table separates it from both Basques and North-Spanish samples, so I have to assume these came from other areas of Spain, but exactly where?

2- The OP says "pink" represents "East African" but from what I can see it looks like Amerindian (it is highest among American populations), so I am assuming that the one that looks more like "flesh" color is the one that is meant for "East Africa"

3- The same three colors that the OP is trying to use to estimate "Arab", "Jewish" and/or "Phoenician" contributions to southern Spain show up at varying frequencies in other places in Europe (Italy, Greece, Balkans) Does that mean we can go around speculating about the genetic contributions of Etruscan/Roman-era Middle Eastern immigrants and slaves as well as later Muslim-era military invaders in these other areas of Europe based on the results of the same study, or will this only be arbitrarily applied to the southern Spanish?
 
I forgot to mention that the Jews could also have brought the same admixture and haplogroups as the Phoenicians and the Arabs.
E-M34 (most common subclade of E1b1b for Jews) is extremely low in Spain.
 
E-M34 (most common subclade of E1b1b for Jews) is extremely low in Spain.
While I'm E1b1b1 and therefore most likely E-M34 (not confirmed as of yet though) I'm pretty sure most Ashkenazi/Sephardi Jews belong to J2. How common is that in Spain? (Obviously if it's common it may have just been brought in the Bronze age).
 
Perhaps like the Magyars were to most Hungarians? A ruling minority that contributed linguistically and culturally but not genetically?
That's correct.

While I'm E1b1b1 and therefore most likely E-M34 (not confirmed as of yet though) I'm pretty sure most Ashkenazi/Sephardi Jews belong to J2. How common is that in Spain? (Obviously if it's common it may have just been brought in the Bronze age).
J2 is about 8-10% in Spain, which is pretty low for a South-European/Mediterranean country.
 
Since the Caucaso-Gedrosian was probably brought to Spain mostly by Phoenicians (being nearly absent from Algerian, Mozabite and BedouinB), it can be inferred that the Phoenicians contributed approximately 12% of the DNA in an average South Spanish genome (4% for each of the three admixtures). The other 6% of the Bedouin-like admixture would be medieval Arabic in origin. Using the proportions of modern Saudi Arabs as a proxy, we can estimate that the Bedouin-like admixture made up 75% of medieval Arabs' genomes. That would give a total of about 8% of Arabic DNA in a South Spanish genome today.
.
The Caucasus-Gedrosia component that you talk about , has nothing to do with Phoenicians or Arabs, but with Yamnaya. If you look at the dark-blue component, it peaks in Yamanya, but they also have around 25% of this Caucasus-Gedrosia component. This component is in fact also found all around Europe (in fact Spain has lower levels than Hungary, France, or Croatia).

In fact when you look at K=19, the ratio Dark-Blue/Turquoise is about 50%/50% for Yamnayans, and this same ratio is mantained in Spain and Basque country, and in most of Europe. So, yes Basques do have it also, it's just that at K=20 it disappears in them. And the violet "Bedouin component" is also present in other S.European countries, such Greeks, Tuscans, Sardinians, etc.

You are just making up some weird theories.
 
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J2 is about 8-10% in Spain, which is pretty low for a South-European/Mediterranean country.

I suppose it is, compared to where it is predominant (in Europe), Greece and southern Italy.
 
[h=1]From Arabia to Iberia: A Y chromosome prospective[/h]

  • a Department of Molecular and Human Genetics, College of Medicine, FL International University, Miami FL33199, USA
  • b Biology Department, Colorado College, Colorado Springs, CO 80903, USA
  • c Laboratoire de Genetique, Immunologie at Pathologies Humaines, Faculte des Sciences de Tunis,Campus Universitaire El Manar II, Universite el Manar, Tunis, Tunisia
Received 5 January 2015, Revised 8 February 2015, Accepted 15 February 2015, Available online 17 February 2015



[h=2]Highlights[/h]•The M81 and M183 mutations in Spain represent signatures of Berber gene flow.
•The P58 mutation and its derivatives represent genetic signals from Arabian.
•Our data are compatible with multiple migrations from Northwest Africa including the Islamic occupation.
•Frequencies of both Arabic and Berber markers are higher at the extreme Northwest of Iberian compared to the South of Spain.
•Relocation of converts and/or pre-Islamic dispersals to North Iberia may explain the higher frequencies compared to South Iberia.



[h=2]Abstract[/h]At different times during recent human evolution, northern Africa has served as a conduit for migrations from the Arabian Peninsula. Although previous researchers have investigated the possibility of the Strait of Gibraltar as a conduit of migration from North Africa to Iberia, we now revisit this issue and theorize that although the Strait of Gibraltar, at the west end of this corridor, has acted as a barrier for human dispersal into Southwest Europe, it has not provided an absolute seal to gene flow. To test this hypothesis, here we use the spatial frequency distributions, STR diversity and expansion time estimates of Y chromosome haplogroups J1-P58 and E-M81 to investigate the genetic imprints left by the Arabian and Berber expansions into the Iberian Peninsula, respectively. The data generated indicate that Arabian and Berber genetic markers are detected in Iberia. We present evidence that suggest that Iberia has received gene flow from Northwest Africa during and prior to the Islamic colonization of 711 A.D. It is interesting that the highest frequencies of Arabia and Berber markers are not found in southern Spain, where Islam remained the longest and was culturally most influential, but in Northwest Iberia, specifically Galicia. We propose that Moriscos’ relocations to the north during the Reconquista, the migration of cryptic Muslims seeking refuge in a more lenient society and/or more geographic extensive pre-Islamic incursions may explain the higher frequencies and older time estimates of mutations in the north of the Peninsula. These scenarios are congruent with the higher diversities of some diagnostic makers observed in Northwest Iberia.
 
From Arabia to Iberia: A Y chromosome prospective



  • a Department of Molecular and Human Genetics, College of Medicine, FL International University, Miami FL33199, USA
  • b Biology Department, Colorado College, Colorado Springs, CO 80903, USA
  • c Laboratoire de Genetique, Immunologie at Pathologies Humaines, Faculte des Sciences de Tunis,Campus Universitaire El Manar II, Universite el Manar, Tunis, Tunisia
Received 5 January 2015, Revised 8 February 2015, Accepted 15 February 2015, Available online 17 February 2015



Highlights

•The M81 and M183 mutations in Spain represent signatures of Berber gene flow.
•The P58 mutation and its derivatives represent genetic signals from Arabian.
•Our data are compatible with multiple migrations from Northwest Africa including the Islamic occupation.
•Frequencies of both Arabic and Berber markers are higher at the extreme Northwest of Iberian compared to the South of Spain.
•Relocation of converts and/or pre-Islamic dispersals to North Iberia may explain the higher frequencies compared to South Iberia.



Abstract

At different times during recent human evolution, northern Africa has served as a conduit for migrations from the Arabian Peninsula. Although previous researchers have investigated the possibility of the Strait of Gibraltar as a conduit of migration from North Africa to Iberia, we now revisit this issue and theorize that although the Strait of Gibraltar, at the west end of this corridor, has acted as a barrier for human dispersal into Southwest Europe, it has not provided an absolute seal to gene flow. To test this hypothesis, here we use the spatial frequency distributions, STR diversity and expansion time estimates of Y chromosome haplogroups J1-P58 and E-M81 to investigate the genetic imprints left by the Arabian and Berber expansions into the Iberian Peninsula, respectively. The data generated indicate that Arabian and Berber genetic markers are detected in Iberia. We present evidence that suggest that Iberia has received gene flow from Northwest Africa during and prior to the Islamic colonization of 711 A.D. It is interesting that the highest frequencies of Arabia and Berber markers are not found in southern Spain, where Islam remained the longest and was culturally most influential, but in Northwest Iberia, specifically Galicia. We propose that Moriscos’ relocations to the north during the Reconquista, the migration of cryptic Muslims seeking refuge in a more lenient society and/or more geographic extensive pre-Islamic incursions may explain the higher frequencies and older time estimates of mutations in the north of the Peninsula. These scenarios are congruent with the higher diversities of some diagnostic makers observed in Northwest Iberia.
The presence of E-M81 is certainly pre-islamic. Because the frequencies do not correlate with the islamic historical events taking place in Iberia. The morisco theory in Galicia is ridiculous, and makes no historical sense, not only because morsicos were natives converted to Islam living in Christian territory, but because the presence of moriscos in Galicia was very small (compared to other places like Aragón or Valencia, were they made a large percent of the population) , so that cannot account for the 5-6% presence of E-M81 in Galicia. There is also high percentage in Cantabria and other non-southern areas. Also, there fact you find some E-M81 in other parts of Europe, so everything points to a pre-islamic incoming from Northern-Africa. In France, there are areas with 4-5% of E-M81 also (Auvergne, Ile-de-France).
 
From Arabia to Iberia: A Y chromosome prospective



  • a Department of Molecular and Human Genetics, College of Medicine, FL International University, Miami FL33199, USA
  • b Biology Department, Colorado College, Colorado Springs, CO 80903, USA
  • c Laboratoire de Genetique, Immunologie at Pathologies Humaines, Faculte des Sciences de Tunis,Campus Universitaire El Manar II, Universite el Manar, Tunis, Tunisia
Received 5 January 2015, Revised 8 February 2015, Accepted 15 February 2015, Available online 17 February 2015



Highlights

•The M81 and M183 mutations in Spain represent signatures of Berber gene flow.
•The P58 mutation and its derivatives represent genetic signals from Arabian.
•Our data are compatible with multiple migrations from Northwest Africa including the Islamic occupation.
•Frequencies of both Arabic and Berber markers are higher at the extreme Northwest of Iberian compared to the South of Spain.
•Relocation of converts and/or pre-Islamic dispersals to North Iberia may explain the higher frequencies compared to South Iberia.



Abstract

At different times during recent human evolution, northern Africa has served as a conduit for migrations from the Arabian Peninsula. Although previous researchers have investigated the possibility of the Strait of Gibraltar as a conduit of migration from North Africa to Iberia, we now revisit this issue and theorize that although the Strait of Gibraltar, at the west end of this corridor, has acted as a barrier for human dispersal into Southwest Europe, it has not provided an absolute seal to gene flow. To test this hypothesis, here we use the spatial frequency distributions, STR diversity and expansion time estimates of Y chromosome haplogroups J1-P58 and E-M81 to investigate the genetic imprints left by the Arabian and Berber expansions into the Iberian Peninsula, respectively. The data generated indicate that Arabian and Berber genetic markers are detected in Iberia. We present evidence that suggest that Iberia has received gene flow from Northwest Africa during and prior to the Islamic colonization of 711 A.D. It is interesting that the highest frequencies of Arabia and Berber markers are not found in southern Spain, where Islam remained the longest and was culturally most influential, but in Northwest Iberia, specifically Galicia. We propose that Moriscos’ relocations to the north during the Reconquista, the migration of cryptic Muslims seeking refuge in a more lenient society and/or more geographic extensive pre-Islamic incursions may explain the higher frequencies and older time estimates of mutations in the north of the Peninsula. These scenarios are congruent with the higher diversities of some diagnostic makers observed in Northwest Iberia.

Key part here being "Relocation of converts and/or pre-Islamic dispersals to North Iberia may explain the higher frequencies compared to South Iberia." Again, nothing new. Papers based on haplogroups are speculative by force. We are dealing with genetic markers which are thousands of years old and predate historical events. There is no way of knowing for sure when they were introduced in any given area.
 
Strange that you should say that, since the more typically Near Eastern features, like aquiline facial profiles, are actually more common among the strongly Dinaricized Italians and southern Balkans than the predominantly West-Mediterranean and very little Dinaric-influenced southern Spaniards/Portuguese. Get better acquainted with anthropology.

Regarding mosques: you can find old mosques in Greece and all over the Balkans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islami...#.28Ahmed.29_Al.E2.80.93Aga_Mosque_.281268.29


Your point is? You can also find ancient temples in Italy devoted to Syrian and Egyptian gods:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Isis_(Pompeii)

Again, your point is?

Adopting the religion of other peoples does not make any inferences about their actual ethnic origins. Most Muslims in Iberia were in fact just native converts to that religion.
I don't need someone to tell me whether or not Southern Spaniards and Portuguese have Semitic admixture; I KNOW this to be true. ;)

And my whole point being, is that Afro-Asiatic is spoken in Maltese; an island of Europe. How did it get there; if it is not European language in origin? Obviously through Near Eastern conquest...just like the Phoenician and Moorish conquests.


Haplogroup-E-M123.jpg

E-M123 is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in Jewish people. It seems heavily concentrated in the region of Extremadura; which may suggest Sephardic Jewish assimilation.

mtDNA-U6-map.jpg

And Mtdna U6 is obviously and evidently Sephardic Jewish in origin as well. All the people I met with this mtdna have Sephardic Jewish ancestry.

The Basque people look more like Celts (Irish, Scottish, Breton French, Western French) because they basically are. They are Celtiberians that are homogeneous but speak a non-IE language. They look nothing like Andalusians; and have a high percentage of Blondism in their population. While in Andalusia you will find people with mostly dark black hair; and usually straight.
 
I don't need someone to tell me whether or not Southern Spaniards and Portuguese have Semitic admixture; I KNOW this to be true. ;)

And my whole point being, is that Afro-Asiatic is spoken in Maltese; an island of Europe. How did it get there; if it is not European language in origin? Obviously through Near Eastern conquest...just like the Phoenician and Moorish conquests.


View attachment 7090

E-M123 is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in Jewish people. It seems heavily concentrated in the region of Extremadura; which may suggest Sephardic Jewish assimilation.

View attachment 7091

And Mtdna U6 is obviously and evidently Sephardic Jewish in origin as well. All the people I met with this mtdna have Sephardic Jewish ancestry.

The Basque people look more like Celts (Irish, Scottish, Breton French, Western French) because they basically are. They are Celtiberians that are homogeneous but speak a non-IE language. They look nothing like Andalusians; and have a high percentage of Blondism in their population. While in Andalusia you will find people with mostly dark black hair; and usually straight.
You have no idea what your talking about. The mtDNA U6 is a specific north-african subclade, nothing to do with Jews.
 
You have no idea what your talking about. The mtDNA U6 is a specific north-african subclade, nothing to do with Jews.
No idea what I'm talking about? I just told you that all people I met with U6 have Sephardic Jewish heritage.

Either way; it still proves that I am correct that U6 isn't European in origin. You have still admitted that it is North African in origin; which proves my point that Iberians have a Near Eastern/North African influence..

Here is a link:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/dominicansephardim/default.aspx?section=results

"Haplogroup U6

[FONT=Andalus, serif] Haplogroup U6 can be considered to be the mt-DNA equivalent of Y-DNA haplogroup E1B1B in that it is of North African origins and its distribution matches the Afro Asiatic linguistic expansion. The U6 research project has discovered what it believes to be a Sephardic Cluster in haplogroup U6A7A1B characterized by mutation 150T. U6 can be found in small percentages among Sephardic Jews and even Ashkenazic Jews. Similar to haplogroup E1B1B, U6's presence among Jews may date back to ancient times when the founding members of the Israelite tribes performed conversions on local Canaanite women, to allow them marry tribal members prior to their descent to Egypt. Another possibility is that this lineage joined the ancient Israelites along with the "mixed multitude" that came out of Egypt with the Israelites, as described in the Bible. It is also possible that Berber conversions to Judaism during the Muslim occupation of Spain introduced this lineage to the Sephardic gene pool. This haplogroup has been found in the Sephardic Jewish communities of the former Ottoman Empire. A member of this project with a tradition of Jewish ancestry on his/her maternal line, and is a member of this haplogroup, can be considered to be likely of Jewish descent."[/FONT]
 
Key part here being "Relocation of converts and/or pre-Islamic dispersals to North Iberia may explain the higher frequencies compared to South Iberia." Again, nothing new. Papers based on haplogroups are speculative by force. We are dealing with genetic markers which are thousands of years old and predate historical events. There is no way of knowing for sure when they were introduced in any given area.

correct.....the arabian to iberia was pre arabs
 
I don't need someone to tell me whether or not Southern Spaniards and Portuguese have Semitic admixture; I KNOW this to be true. ;)

And my whole point being, is that Afro-Asiatic is spoken in Maltese; an island of Europe. How did it get there; if it is not European language in origin? Obviously through Near Eastern conquest...just like the Phoenician and Moorish conquests.


View attachment 7090

E-M123 is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in Jewish people. It seems heavily concentrated in the region of Extremadura; which may suggest Sephardic Jewish assimilation.

View attachment 7091

And Mtdna U6 is obviously and evidently Sephardic Jewish in origin as well. All the people I met with this mtdna have Sephardic Jewish ancestry.

The Basque people look more like Celts (Irish, Scottish, Breton French, Western French) because they basically are. They are Celtiberians that are homogeneous but speak a non-IE language. They look nothing like Andalusians; and have a high percentage of Blondism in their population. While in Andalusia you will find people with mostly dark black hair; and usually straight.

i do not think berbers where semetic

the moors seems a mix of Northwest indigenous africans and a mix of saharan "west african " coastal people. it seems the arabic invasion of iberia after the fall of the Roman empire and the end of barbaric invasions of africa by the vandals , might have lighten the pigmentation of the indigenous area in question
 

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