Tracing back Phoenician & Arabic DNA in modern Spaniards using Haak 2015's admixtures

Kid??? Flunked? Imaginary classes? LOL.

I am in the same boat as Maciamo. If you have any ground on "logic" then explain to me how Q1b and J1 arrived in Southern Iberia? What is the alternative explanation here?

The exact same ones as have been offered by others (and including "Maciamo" himself): prehistoric or ancient population movements. Example:

"Even Neolithic farmers appear to have come from two different sources, each bringing their own set of haplogroups and autosomal admixtures. A first Mediterranean route brought farmers of the Cardium Pottery culture from the Balkans and Italy. Soon afterwards, La Almagra Pottery culture developed in Andalusia, apparently emerging from the present-day Maghreb. This event would explain the presence of both Northwest African and Red Sea DNA, such as Y-haplogroup E-M81, J1 and T, across most of southern and western Iberia."
 
The exact same ones as have been offered by others (and including "Maciamo" himself): prehistoric or ancient population movements. Example:

"Even Neolithic farmers appear to have come from two different sources, each bringing their own set of haplogroups and autosomal admixtures. A first Mediterranean route brought farmers of the Cardium Pottery culture from the Balkans and Italy. Soon afterwards, La Almagra Pottery culture developed in Andalusia, apparently emerging from the present-day Maghreb. This event would explain the presence of both Northwest African and Red Sea DNA, such as Y-haplogroup E-M81, J1 and T, across most of southern and western Iberia."
The Maghreb is not Europe; it's North Africa. So right there you just proved yourself wrong, and me and Maciamo correct. Lmao.
 
Until you can prove to me that J1 subclades entered South Iberia from Central Europe or the Balkans and not North Africa; your arguments will remain invalid...

Give it up guy.

And I suppose you imagine that the J1 in Central Europe and the Balkans are local developments instead of also having their origins in the Middle East. You give it up, guy.
 
And I suppose you imagine that the J1 in Central Europe and the Balkans are local developments instead of also having their origins in the Middle East. You give it up, guy.
No; they both descend from the same ancestor. That is correct. But there were splits. That's why they are called subclades.

Haplogroup Q exists in Mongoloids; Native Americans, but it is also found in people from the Levant and Near East, such as Lebanese, Syrians, Ashkenazi Jews. These are all people of different races.

And there are people in Sub-Saharan Africa that carry R1b-V88. Doesn't mean that they are Europeans.
 
The Maghreb is not Europe; it's North Africa. So right there you just proved yourself wrong, and me and Maciamo correct. Lmao.

Learn to read: he is telling you that they can easily have come from a PREHISTORIC source, not necessarily from historical people like "Jews" or "Arabs" who did not exist back in those times. That's the point. Also, I get the impression that you imagine that the same haplogroups found elsewhere in Europe are actually local developments instead of having come from elsewhere too at some point. The only one proving himself wrong is you.
 
If these ad hominem comments continue there will be consequences.
 
Learn to read: he is telling you that they can easily have come from a PREHISTORIC source, not necessarily from historical people like "Jews" or "Arabs" who did not exist back in those times. That's the point. Also, I get the impression that you imagine that the same haplogroups found elsewhere in Europe are actually local developments instead of having come from elsewhere too at some point. The only one proving himself wrong is you.
Um, no? LOL. I just stated that there are Africans with R1b and Europeans with R1b...

You keep coming up with baseless predetermined assumptions; and then the insults. But you really give me something to laugh about because you are such a pitiful and injudicious joke.
 
If these ad hominem comments continue there will be consequences.
I was thinking it would be wise to dismiss myself. I apologize Angela.
 
Self-projecting your own tendencies will not make you win an argument. You will win an argument over nothing; an imaginary argument; because you argue over nothing. There is no other explanation for how these haplogroups arrived. And again, I am not the one who surmised that Q1b was Phoenician; it was Maciamo. The owner of this website.

You are t-r-o-l-l-i-n-g and spamming this post; not I.

Those are your tactics, no one else's here, you are the one who started using them after your t-r-o-l-l-i-n-g got confronted. And Maciamo is actually just offering possible explanations, not definitive answers. He often uses language that clearly indicate this, like "Q1b1a1 (L272.1): found in Sicily (probably Phoenician)"
 
Um, no? LOL. I just stated that there are Africans with R1b and Europeans with R1b...

You keep coming up with baseless predetermined assumptions; and then the insults. But you really give me something to laugh about because you are such a pitiful and injudicious joke.

No, I am just going by what your strange posts imply. You seem to think that J1 in southern Iberia is "African" or Middle Eastern, but then the one in Central Europe and the Balkans must be something else totally different.
 
Those are your tactics, no one else's here, you are the one who started using them after your t-r-o-l-l-i-n-g got confronted. And Maciamo is actually just offering possible explanations, not definitive answers. He often uses language that clearly indicate this, like "Q1b1a1 (L272.1): found in Sicily (probably Phoenician)"
Once again, I am not t-r-o-l-l-i-n-g; you are making baseless accusations against me. And as I stated before; you look like someone out for character defamation/assassination. So please, let's end it here.

You can believe your own reality in your own mind; but it will always be fantasy Drac II. I am leaving this thread now.
 
Once again, I am not t-r-o-l-l-i-n-g; you are making baseless accusations against me. And as I stated before; you look like someone out for character defamation/assassination. So please, let's end it here.

You can believe your own reality in your own mind; but it will always be fantasy Drac II. I am leaving this thread now.

Anyone can easily see by simply going back in the thread who the troublemaker here has been all along. Everyone was debating and commenting normally until you arrived and started posting strange claims and comments, which look like they are designed to provoke others.
 
Anyone can easily see by simply going back in the thread who the troublemaker here has been all along. Everyone was debating and commenting normally until you arrived and started posting strange claims and comments, which look like they are designed to provoke others.
Baseless accusation, assumptions in an attempt to character defame, insecurity, contradiction, self-projecting hypocrisy, condescending ad hominem personal attacks, imitation of my words, refusal to acknowledge evidence given, erroneously using someone else's work (Maciamo) in order to further your illegitimate view, are just a few of your "traits". And accusing me of being a threat, taking things personally attacking me, never staying on topic.



I am leaving this thread now and am putting you on ignore.
 
I was thinking it would be wise to dismiss myself. I apologize Angela.

You were not the only or even the worst offender. That doesn't of course mean that I agree with your analysis, as should be clear from my own posts.

Drac:Anyone can easily see by simply going back in the thread who the troublemaker here has been all along. Everyone was debating and commenting normally until you arrived and started posting strange claims and comments, which look like they are designed to provoke others.

I think there is enough blame to go around. I would also think that the fact that every time someone mentions anything to do with Spain that has any possible connection to the Near East there is immediately a post to the effect that, well, there are "others" who have "more" might be seen as comments meant to provoke "others" who might have a similar "Near Eastern" phobia. Or, those people might simply be tired of the deflection and lack of logic of it all.

Regardless, watch your comments.
 
You were not the only or even the worst offender. That doesn't of course mean that I agree with your analysis, as should be clear from my own posts.



I think there is enough blame to go around. I would also think that the fact that every time someone mentions anything to do with Spain that has any possible connection to the Near East there is immediately a post to the effect that, well, there are "others" who have "more" might be seen as comments meant to provoke "others" who might have a similar "Near Eastern" phobia. Or, those people might simply be tired of the deflection and lack of logic of it all.

Regardless, watch your comments.

Like I said to him, go back in the thread to plainly see who started the "X has more of this or that, therefore they are not really Europeans" claims. It sure as heck was not me or anyone else who started it, but the actual troublemaker in this thread. We were merely responding to the incorrect claims and manipulations of the provocateur.
 
I just came back to this thread but it seems it has ended. Anyway, Melancon, I apologize for calling you a "blockhead." I made my comment under the influence of a few ales after coming back from a party. :) However, your comments seemed to me very naive or misguided, especially when dealing with the Basques. Making such claims that Basques are Northern European is very immature. Your knowledge of Basques seem to come from watching You-Tube videos, reading some papers, and meeting a few Basques in Louisiana. But I doubt that videos -- which are made in a highly selective manner, that show mostly models, athletes, actors, or people of mixed appearance -- are the actual representatives of the whole population. I lived for 16 years among Basques in Idaho. Boise has the highest concentration of Basques outside of Spain and France. I don't blame you for thinking Basques are like the Irish or something. I used to think the same like you: for example, many "Basques" I met in Boise looked white or northern European. But after asking them their real heritage they almost always said "1/2-Basque" or "1/4 Basque." However, when the Basques came from Spain during their festivals I noticed they looked different. For example, most were short, stocky and hairy, with dark-curly or wavy hair and dark-eyes, swarthy (although not all), and with prominent noses. Hardly your typical Northern European. I even asked many mixed and pure Basques if they considered themselves to be 'white" and almost all denied it and said "Basque." The women were also not typical Northern European. Most were short, dark-haired, and stocky, with olive complexions. Yes some were fair skinned and eyed but this is common among Mediterranean peoples. Thus to me "pure" Basques looked more Mediterranean. Maybe I exaggerated by saying they looked like Jews, but I am not the only one. During the Middle Ages the Castilians suspected the Basques of being secret Jews and even a Basque author wrote a book claiming the Basques the descendants the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel. Thus I believe Basques are European. But so are the Andalusians.

My theory is that Basques (along with the Iberians -- probably the same people) were in fact Neolithic peoples who came from the Middle East around 6000 BCE. This explains their language, strange customs, and phenotype. The reason why many Basques males have a lot of R1b (but women have been found to have considerable Middle Eastern K, T, U) is that the Celts exterminated a large amount of the male population and raped the women during their invasion of Iberia (there are only two entrances into Iberia -- through the Basque Country and Catalonia). After the Celts left for Castile, Galicia, Portugal and other pasts (however many must have stayed and become "Basque") the Basque women educated the children and thus the Basque people retained their Basque language to the present time. This also explains why some Basques are swarthy and some are fair.

I think you picked the wrong area for making a claim that Andalusians are not European. You should have picked the southern Italians, Sicilians, or even the Greeks. They have much more E1b1, J1, J2, G, than any other Europeans. In fact they range from 35%-60% non European DNA, whereas Andalusians peak at 20%. As for the Phoenicians, they made a negligible contribution to Spanish DNA. Phoenicians/Carthaginians were only traders and never truly occupied the Iberian peninsula. After the Romans defeated Carthage during the Punic Wars most if not all of the Carthaginian males were exterminated and the women raped and enslaved (the Romans were a ruthless people. "Carthago delenda est" was not just a threat). So whatever contributions they made would have been drastically reduced.

The only candidates to this DNA you were mentioning were the Neolithic Farmers and Greek/Roman colonizers. We don't now how any heolithic farmers entered Iberia but during the Roman Empire a ton of mixed Romans settled there. The so-called "Moors" were mostly Ibero-Roman Muslims (90%) and Berbers. Since Berbers are 70-85% E1b1, then they could not have increased the J1 or J2 in Andalusia. J2 is Greek, Roman, Armenian and J1 is mostly Jewish/Arab. So there was mixture in Andalusia with the Berbers, Jews, and Arabs but not as significant compared to Italy, Greece, and the Balkans, who had larger neolithic populations and later and more recently Jews, Arabs, Turks, Egyptians, and even Blacks. Even though the Italians and Greeks have more non European DNA than Andalusians they are still European.
 
People still throwing Haplogroups and aDNA wildely through the room and try to explain swarthy or dark features with ancient populations, they seem to not know of enough. :bigsmile:

Some people really need to take some time off and read through all the recent scientific papers which appeared the last 2-3 years.


Basques look as much "North European" as Andalusians look Tuareg.
 
My theory is that Basques (along with the Iberians -- probably the same people) were in fact Neolithic peoples who came from the Middle East around 6000 BCE. This explains their language, strange customs, and phenotype. The reason why many Basques males have a lot of R1b (but women have been found to have considerable Middle Eastern K, T, U) is that the Celts exterminated a large amount of the male population and raped the women during their invasion of Iberia (there are only two entrances into Iberia -- through the Basque Country and Catalonia). After the Celts left for Castile, Galicia, Portugal and other pasts (however many must have stayed and become "Basque") the Basque women educated the children and thus the Basque people retained their Basque language to the present time. This also explains why some Basques are swarthy and some are fair.
Raids are not a perfect explanation. It's an option that R1b is more potent than the original Basque Y haplogroup. So it could be a simple matter of natural selection. This would explain higher R1b in the Basques without being the original Basque language.
 
Raids are not a perfect explanation. It's an option that R1b is more potent than the original Basque Y haplogroup. So it could be a simple matter of natural selection. This would explain higher R1b in the Basques without being the original Basque language.

That is true. I forgot to add that during the Muslim occupation millions of Ibero/Roman/Celtic/Gothic people deserted all of central Iberia and settled in packed areas. So the introduction of R1b and I would have impacted the earlier populations in the Basque Country, Aragon, and Catalonia. For example, the Goths settled right next to the Basques, Galicians, and in Extremadura; while the Swabians and Alans settled near Galicia and Leon. So alal these millions of persons would have dramatically altered the Basque DNA. As a matter of fact in Boise, Idaho, I noticed that Basques almost always intermarried with the white population. Only very few Basques were real Basques. So we can infer that the same situation happened when the Gothic and Celto/Iberian refugees settled in the Pyrenees.
 

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