Tracing back Phoenician & Arabic DNA in modern Spaniards using Haak 2015's admixtures

[Angela]

J1 has nothing to do with J2a or J2b
J1 is turned to a semitic characteristic
while J2a a south caucas that turns as a characteristic of mediterenean and black sea
and j2b semms to be connected with some waves of IE

the role of J2a is still uncertain and until now can not be defined,
for example we do not know much Minoan, Pontic, Phoenician was,
but we know was a seafring HG that spread all over mediterenean and black sea,

J1 has different subclades. We just don't know very much about them because the money and the hobbyist community is more interested in R1a and R1b. What used to be called J1e or P58 is the "Semitic" clade. It is extremely frequent in the Arabian peninsula because of a founder effect there. The consensus still seems to be that J1 arose somewhere around the Zagros, but many clades, including J-P58, moved south. There are clades of J1 in Europe that have nothing to do with the Arabian peninsula. It's not totally clear yet when they arrived or what migrations were responsible for them. There are threads that discuss it at more depth if you are interested in it.

I agree that J2's center of gravity is further north. I also agree that we may find that some subclades of J2 were involved in some waves of IE migrations.

 

[Johannes]

Well, essentially; they were all Afro-Asiatic speaking peoples with origins in the Levant and Near East. So am I not completely wrong here? If you are talking about the same percentages, then yes I may be correct.

Basques look nothing like Andalusians in terms of phenotype; and Basques are more Northern European while Andalusians would fit Mediterranean. And it is in my personal opinion; from experience; that some Andalusian Spaniards look very similar to Near Easterners like the Lebanese and Syrians; and may have picked up some of those genetics.

I was a bit taken aback by some of the people posting here, arguing against and claiming that they were in complete discordance in their analogies with mine. I was expecting the opposite. Lots of Southern Iberians have non-European ancestry; it's no secret to me.

Malecon you are a block head. I just started reading your postings and you appear to be a very ignorant man. You seem to be knowledgeable about Basques and Northern Spaniards but it is obvious you are ignorant. I grew up with Basques in Boise, Idaho and they never looked like what you mentioned. Of course some that I met who looked "white" were actually mixed with white people and resembled "white Basques"; but the vast majority of "pure" Basques did not look anything like you said. To me they looked like Jews or Middle Eastern -- most had black hair, were short, had very hairy bodies, long hooked noses, dark skin -- So were have you seen your "Basques"??? I even went to the Basque country last year and spent some time in San Sebastian and Vitoria and I never saw anything like "Northern Europeans" or Celts! They did not look like Irish or English thats for sure! I did occasionally see some red haired and blue-eyed Basques but they were very rare and I doubt it if they were "true Basques". Most Basques were dark skinned and Mediterrenean. Have you been to Spain or Idaho? You dont know what the hell you are talking about. You are an arm chair amateur, speculating about things you dont know about. I visited Spain and most Spaniards are white just like regular Europeans. Yes, there are some that are Mediterrenean-looking but they are a minority. What: are there many Basques in Louisiana?

 

[Yetos]

@Angela

J1 is not only in Arabic peninsula, it is also connected with Jew Diaspora in many areas.

 

[Melancon]

J1 has nothing to do with J2a or J2b
J1 is turned to a semitic characteristic
while J2a a south caucas that turns as a characteristic of mediterenean and black sea
and j2b semms to be connected with some waves of IE

the role of J2a is still uncertain and until now can not be defined,
for example we do not know much Minoan, Pontic, Phoenician was,
but we know was a seafring HG that spread all over mediterenean and black sea,

I didn't say that. I know that J1 and J2 exist in several races; just like R1b. The only thing that matters is the subclade and how it got there; that can determine ethnicity and/or admixture.

 

[Melancon]

Malecon you are a block head. I just started reading your postings and you appear to be a very ignorant man. You seem to be knowledgeable about Basques and Northern Spaniards but it is obvious you are ignorant. I grew up with Basques in Boise, Idaho and they never looked like what you mentioned. Of course some that I met who looked "white" were actually mixed with white people and resembled "white Basques"; but the vast majority of "pure" Basques did not look anything like you said. To me they looked like Jews or Middle Eastern -- most had black hair, were short, had very hairy bodies, long hooked noses, dark skin -- So were have you seen your "Basques"??? I even went to the Basque country last year and spent some time in San Sebastian and Vitoria and I never saw anything like "Northern Europeans" or Celts! They did not look like Irish or English thats for sure! I did occasionally see some red haired and blue-eyed Basques but they were very rare and I doubt it if they were "true Basques". Most Basques were dark skinned and Mediterrenean. Have you been to Spain or Idaho? You dont know what the hell you are talking about. You are an arm chair amateur, speculating about things you dont know about. I visited Spain and most Spaniards are white just like regular Europeans. Yes, there are some that are Mediterrenean-looking but they are a minority. What: are there many Basques in Louisiana?

Are you serious? That has to be one of the most retarded and ill-informed posts I've ever seen in this whole website of Eupedia, ever. I don't intend to offend. But where is your own credibility? I have stated facts. And by the way, your mtdna A2 suggests you have a Native American ancestor on your maternal side. I am certainly no "blockhead".


"What: are there many Basques in Louisiana?"

Yep, Zatarain is actually a Basque surname. I drink their root-beer extract almost anytime I can get it. And lots of Cajuns have Basque ancestry, ahem. You are ill-informed on the matter quite clearly; and have no ground to attack me personally on this trivial issue.

Here is a video that shows what the Basques of Spain look-like; and they look very Celtic or Northern European. Small face, rounded chin. Sometimes blonde or dirty-blonde hair. Extremely fair skin. Blue eyes.

(in fact, I believe that I may resemble some of these people.)

There is very little percentage for Basques to have anything but European admixture; because they are extremely homogeneous. Their phenotype is Northern European; not Mediterranean.

 

[Melancon]

read this below, it will help wiuth your phoenicians
http://www.academia.edu/3642572/Unr..._An_Archaeogenetic_Approach_to_Neolithisation

Well it doesn't have to be necessarily Phoenicians in particular. Almost everything I have said here, can be backed by Maciamo. But I am sure he could have disagreements with me; likewise. But I know the majority of what I stated was correct.

It seems nobody understands what I am saying; no matter how hard I try to get to them. I am not contradicting myself; everyone is making assumptions against me. Like usual. Alas, I realize that average humans are not very quick...

 

[Alan]

This makes no sense. The EEF component itself is a mixture of WHG and Ancient Near-East farmer. Otherwise, the EEF wouldn't plot halfway between the WHG and the Near-East.

I agree that there is not much difference between South and North Iberia. But we already had this discussion about EEF.

From the Lazaridis paper we know this component is between 2 and 45% WHG admixed, depending on how mixed we consider the Bedouin refference. Lazaridis comes to the conclusion that both ends are unlikely so. ~ 20% WHG admixture from Balkans makes sense. Don't forget that even the Levant has still a significant percentage of WHG.

The reason why EEF is btween WHG and Near East is not because it is halfway mixed with WHG. But because both EEF and the Near Eastern repopulation have obviously mixed over the 10000 of years.

With other words EEF drifted in both ways.

So taking the modern Bedoing or even Levantine population as the exact position of ancient farmers and than trying to calculate the WHG admixture is just wrong.

But as I said even levantines have allot of WHG so It could even be very possibl that the Near Eastern farmers already were EEF.

 

[Melancon]

I dare people to look up "Andalusians" or "Andalusian people" on google images; and tell me if they have any resemblance to Europeans or even Basques, for that matter.

Photos of Andalusians:















I see no resemblance to Basques whatsoever. There is obvious admixture to me. Slightly darker skin color, dark hair, slightly-wider nose, slanted eyebrows. They look more like the Lebanese people to me! And even Lebanese people can appear more European!

Disclaimer: I am really just joking most the time. I do not know if they are actually mixed. Don't take me seriously. From my eyes personally; they do look like they have some sort of Near Eastern/Levant admixture though.

 

[Melancon]

Did I ever say that Tunisians or Algerians are European? Did I ever even say that Levantines are European? I said that the ancestral populations which form the majority of the ancestry of the Levantines (ENF and ANE if you want to use those terms) also went into the making of "the Europeans". It's just a question of percentages. It's a cline. (They do, of course, now have additional SSA acquired over the centuries.)

I implied that a few percentage points of ancestry in a modern European that arrived in the late Bronze Age via some Afro-Asiatic speakers like the Phoenicians, or the few percentage points that might be attributable to the "Moors" (who have WHG, as well as ENF, in addition to their large SSA component), even if you could separate the non-SSA portion of it out from other earlier migrations, doesn't mean that person isn't as fully European as a person without it, just as Finns with 7-8% Siberian are fully European.

Either you see the logic of this argument or you don't.

There is no problem with me understanding; seems like everyone else is self-projecting their misunderstandings onto me. Spain and Portugal have the most African and Red Sea admixture of any country in Europe. That is evident by the maps here on Eupedia. But people here say that Spanish people have no North African or Near Eastern contribution. So these two arguments seem like a total contradiction to me; and this is where everyone in this thread has a clash/misunderstanding.

Someone here said that mtdna U6 wasn't Sephardic Jewish as I had insisted; but instead said that it was North African. Which only proves my point; and they contradicted themselves. While claiming that Catalonians and other Spaniards have no Phoenician or Arabic admixture. (I can go back and quote them.) No offense to them; but they have contradicted themselves; not I.

Using logic. Someone here in this post is wrong. It's not me. Is it actually Maciamo of all people?

Additionally; there are samples of genetics in Portuguese and Andalusian populations which do not exist in Basques...so to say that they are the same people or have the same looks or admixture is ludicrous.

 

[Melancon]

Middle Ages with the Moorish invasions it's not "European"?That would let the Phoenician ancestry squeeze in just as the door closes, I suppose.

Or is it just that anything that came via a more northern corridor, like the Siberian ancestry in the northeast, is still "European" but via a southern corridor it's not?

I really don't understand the workings of this kind of mindset, and never have, so basically I just disregard this kind of world view as an abberation which has nothing to do with logic.

Bottom line, as I and others have said, "European" is a geographic, political, cultural, and to some extent (in terms of history)religious construct. The genetics form a cline. By that measure the Spanish are indeed European, all of them, with many contributions to European civilization, far more than areas which you undoubtedly think are European because they are in northern Europe rather than in southern Europe.

I never claimed anything, once again...you are making baseless assumptions and are once again self-projecting your own issues onto me and creating arguments on things that don't exist.

Think of this argument: if you moved the Irish people to Andalusia, they would still be the stereotypical "Northern Europeans" in their phenotype. They would not be Mediterraneans would they? Now reverse this example and put the Andalusians or the Portuguese people in Ireland. They would not be stereotypical Northern Europeans; they would still be the Mediterranean phenotype!! The same thing applies to the Basque people; who have more in common with the Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Norwegians and other North and Northwestern Europeans.

The Basques are dominated by mtdna H1, H3 and U5 and Y-DNA R1b as well as I1 and G2a etc. They are not similar to Andalusians or other Southern Iberians, who are of the Mediterranean phenotype; and whom carry North African mtdna and Y-DNA samples. Since when is J1 seen at an over 10% frequency in the Basque population or Western Europe as in Southern Portugal? My gosh.

Unless the subclade of J1 is not North African in origin then you can tell me that I am wrong; but you would have to explain all the other North African mtdna as well as Y-DNA...

 

[Maleth]

I never claimed anything, once again...you are making baseless assumptions and are once again self-projecting your own issues onto me and creating arguments on things that don't exist.

Think of this argument: if you moved the Irish people to Andalusia, they would still be the stereotypical "Northern Europeans" in their phenotype. They would not be Mediterraneans would they? Now reverse this example and put the Andalusians or the Portuguese people in Ireland. They would not be stereotypical Northern Europeans; they would still be the Mediterranean phenotype!! The same thing applies to the Basque people; who have more in common with the Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Norwegians and other North and Northwestern Europeans.

The Basques are dominated by mtdna H1, H3 and U5 and Y-DNA R1b as well as I1 and G2a etc. They are not similar to Andalusians or other Southern Iberians, who are of the Mediterranean phenotype; and whom carry North African mtdna and Y-DNA samples. Since when is J1 seen at an over 10% frequency in the Basque population or Western Europe as in Southern Portugal? My gosh.

Unless the subclade of J1 is not North African in origin then you can tell me that I am wrong; but you would have to explain all the other North African mtdna as well as Y-DNA...

So according to your logic and understanding the subsaharan AfroAsiatic speaking chadic R1b dominated people qualify to be European right? But the probable neolithic or ancient J's or E's......oh is it the G's too? who probably according to science had the first mutations for white skin (if it really matters since you mention it in nearly every post as if to make some kind of scientific point) are just a foreign admixture to a supposidley homogeneous race that arrived from a different route and just as ancient from the norther parts of Euroasia. Would I be in line with your preaching now? or there are other things Im not getting right again?:grin:

 

[Melancon]

So according to your logic and understanding the subsaharan AfroAsiatic speaking chadic R1b dominated people qualify to be European right? But the probable neolithic or ancient J's or E's......oh is it the G's too? who probably according to science had the first mutations for white skin (if it really matters since you mention it in nearly every post as if to make some kind of scientific point) are just a foreign admixture to a supposidley homogeneous race that arrived from a different route and just as ancient from the norther parts of Euroasia. Would I be in line with your preaching now? or there are other things Im not getting right again?:grin:

You aren't getting it again. The Chadic subclade of R1b is R1b-V88. And it developed independently from European subclades of R1b.

I know it is a teeny bit hard for some of you to comprehend. :grin:

Also, please read:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml

"Based on very limited data, the main Lebanese subclades of J1 appear to be J1-YSC234 and J1-YSC76. Both subclades have also been found in Sicily, Andalusia and Portugal, which suggests that they were already found among the Phoenicians. However, since the Arabs conquered the same regions as those colonised by the Phoenicians, it is too early to reach such a conclusion."

 

[Maleth]

You aren't getting it again. The Chadic subclade of R1b is R1b-V88. And it developed independently from European subclades of R1b.

I know it is a teeny bit hard for some of you to comprehend. :grin:

Also, please read:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml

"Based on very limited data, the main Lebanese subclades of J1 appear to be J1-YSC234 and J1-YSC76. Both subclades have also been found in Sicily, Andalusia and Portugal, which suggests that they were already found among the Phoenicians. However, since the Arabs conquered the same regions as those colonised by the Phoenicians, it is too early to reach such a conclusion."

Ah this is from Maciamos Blogg. Did you note the 'Based on limited data / its too early to reach such conclusion', what are the percentages and frequencies? what year did these migrate to a particular region?. Probably the year when Europe did not have a name .....:shocked::grin:. I mean look at you I presume you were born (one? two? third generation?) in Canada and you are a Canadian, and J's that might have been in Europe for the 2500 years at the least some much more and a few less are a foreign admixture to a group of people that did not even have there name concocted by that time until recently . Yes it is tiny weeny difficult to comprehend :grin:

 

[Melancon]

This thread is no longer about tracing the origins of Phoenicians and Arabic DNA in Spaniards. It has been turned into "Uh oh, Melancon is being a racist again."

I have never "preached" to people. My first post was me commenting on several European acquaintances whom I came in contact with; who told me that the Iberians of the South were not white Europeans, like they (the acquaintances) were.......

Some of them included a Basque, a Norwegian, several French people, and a white Frenchman who migrated back into France; with a Moroccan heritage, Muslim background and a Arabic/Berber name. And also a (non-white) Tunisian Muslim who lived in France told me this as well.


I've also had people from Spain tell me that they believe that they have Arabic/non-European ancestry. Admitting it themselves. Several were Andalusians and I recall one being from Madrid.So the people on Eupedia arguing against me; kind of took me by surprise. lol

It's no secret that South Iberians have Middle Eastern heritage. Of course none of this really matters; but some of you seem to be trying to prove something different... I don't know why this is, though.

 

[Melancon]

Ah this is from Maciamos Blogg. Did you note the 'Based on limited data / its too early to reach such conclusion', what are the percentages and frequencies? what year did these migrate to a particular region?. Probably the year when Europe did not have a name .....:shocked::grin:. I mean look at you I presume you were born (one? two? third generation?) in Canada and you are a Canadian, and J's that might have been in Europe for the 2500 years at the least some much more and a few less are a foreign admixture to a group of people that did not even have there name concocted by that time until recently . Yes it is tiny weeny difficult to comprehend :grin:

Well now, that only leaves three things: these Near Eastern people are either a Sub-race or are Mixed race; or both.

You seem to think that white Europeans are a mixture of races. White Europeans are not mixed-race. R1b and R1a individuals from Eastern Europe developed fair-skin in the Neolithic; the same time as the Western I1, I2, E-V13 and G2a individuals. How do I know this? Because mtdna tells me this. R1a/R1b individuals later conquered Western Europe in the age of metal once they became more advanced; slaughtering most of the non-R1 men and taking the women.

The Chadic people who have R1b-V88 most likely have ancestors that migrated back into Europe from Central Asia; when all R1b individuals were still Negroid. So um, fail on your part.

 

[Maleth]

This thread is no longer about tracing the origins of Phoenicians and Arabic DNA in Spaniards. It has been turned into "Uh oh, Melancon is being a racist again."

Uh...who said that?

ISome of them included a Basque, a Norwegian, several French people, and a white Frenchman who migrated back into France; with a Moroccan heritage, Muslim background and a Arabic/Berber name. And also a (non-white) Tunisian Muslim who lived in France told me this as well.

Again you are confusing things. Recent migrations (as in the last 100 years (stand to be corrected) are not included in population samples. If we had to include recent migrations the gene pool would be much different, thats why the terminology used to describe certain haplogroups is unprofessional to say the least in the world of ancient DNA.

I've also had people from Spain tell me that they believe that they have Arabic/non-European ancestry. Admitting it themselves. Several were Andalusians and I recall one being from Madrid.So the people on Eupedia arguing against me; kind of took me by surprise. lol

It's no secret that South Iberians have Middle Eastern heritage. Of course none of this really matters; but some of you seem to be trying to prove something different... I don't know why this is, though.

yes but that is very basic talk from people who know nothing about the subject, not some one who posts regular on a genetic forum. Keep it simple. There are Northern, Central, Southern Europeans. Arabs North Africans (sometimes called Arab too even though they have there own phenotype s (sometimes they differ within the same groups) all have their own. They all have their own admixtures and percentages and climatic conditions to be what they are. To keep it simple, Generally speaking Norwegians do not look French, French (Generally speaking) do not Look Greek or Spanish, Greek or Spanish do not look North African, North Africans do not look Sub saharan, so on and so forth. Anyone can cherry pick like posting a dark haired and brown eyed Danish person to prove something or post a picture of a blue eyed and blond spaniard to prove something else. But this is small talk and does not contribute anything of much substance / essence

 

[Melancon]

Uh...who said that?



Again you are confusing things. Recent migrations (as in the last 100 years (stand to be corrected) are not included in population samples. If we had to include recent migrations the gene pool would be much different, thats why the terminology used to describe certain haplogroups is unprofessional to say the least in the world of ancient DNA.




yes but that is very basic talk from people who know nothing about the subject, not some one who posts regular on a genetic forum. Keep it simple. There are Northern, Central, Southern Europeans. Arabs North Africans (sometimes called Arab too even though they have there own phenotype s (sometimes they differ within the same groups) all have their own. They all have their own admixtures and percentages and climatic conditions to be what they are. To keep it simple, Generally speaking Norwegians do not look French, French (Generally speaking) do not Look Greek or Spanish, Greek or Spanish do not look North African, North Africans do not look Sub saharan, so on and so forth. Anyone can cherry pick like posting a dark haired and brown eyed Danish person to prove something or post a picture of a blue eyed and blond spaniard to prove something else. But this is small talk and does not contribute anything of much substance / essence

No one had to literally say that I was being a racist; I can detect it with baseless assumptions and attempted corrections.

I beg to differ. And I've actually met Andalusians and Portuguese people, as I said before. I've also met a man from Madrid who believed himself to have some Arabic ancestry. People don't consider the evidence; even if it is right there in front of their eyes.

Unless someone can tell me the origins of J1 and J2 in Southern Iberia were not of Arabic origin; then I will stop with that ridiculous argument. But I don't think it's ridiculous. ha

So answer me, are Afro-Asiatic people European? Is Maltese a European language? How come people can say African or Asian in anthropology but not European? Europeans don't exist apparently; and are a mix of Asians and Africans according to you. I am not the one who brought up this ridiculous bullshit argument either; it was you. Refer back to our first posts.

 

[Maleth]

No one had to literally say that I was being a racist; I can detect it with baseless assumptions and attempted corrections.

I beg to differ. And I've actually met Andalusians and Portuguese people, as I said before. I've also met a man from Madrid who believed himself to have some Arabic ancestry. People don't consider the evidence; even if it is right there in front of their eyes.

Unless someone can tell me the origins of J1 and J2 in Southern Iberia were not of Arabic origin; then I will stop with that ridiculous argument. But I don't think it's ridiculous. ha

So answer me, are Afro-Asiatic people European? Is Maltese a European language? How come people can say African or Asian in anthropology but not European? Europeans don't exist apparently; and are a mix of Asians and Africans according to you. I am not the one who brought up this ridiculous bullshit argument either; it was you. Refer back to our first posts.

Spend some time concentrating on growing up, it will do you good. Enjoy, take care and good bye

 

[Drac II]

Malecon you are a block head. I just started reading your postings and you appear to be a very ignorant man. You seem to be knowledgeable about Basques and Northern Spaniards but it is obvious you are ignorant. I grew up with Basques in Boise, Idaho and they never looked like what you mentioned. Of course some that I met who looked "white" were actually mixed with white people and resembled "white Basques"; but the vast majority of "pure" Basques did not look anything like you said. To me they looked like Jews or Middle Eastern -- most had black hair, were short, had very hairy bodies, long hooked noses, dark skin -- So were have you seen your "Basques"??? I even went to the Basque country last year and spent some time in San Sebastian and Vitoria and I never saw anything like "Northern Europeans" or Celts! They did not look like Irish or English thats for sure! I did occasionally see some red haired and blue-eyed Basques but they were very rare and I doubt it if they were "true Basques". Most Basques were dark skinned and Mediterrenean. Have you been to Spain or Idaho? You dont know what the hell you are talking about. You are an arm chair amateur, speculating about things you dont know about. I visited Spain and most Spaniards are white just like regular Europeans. Yes, there are some that are Mediterrenean-looking but they are a minority. What: are there many Basques in Louisiana?

WTH? What you are saying is actually even more mistaken than what he is saying.

 

[Melancon]

Spend some time concentrating on growing up, it will do you good. Enjoy, take care and good bye

Take your own advices. Dude, listen. I don't really care.