Turkish Dna, Research of Haplogroups C, E, G, I, J, L, N, Q, R and T

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TurkmenCopur

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At www.turktoresi.com we have published a research about the haplogroups found in Turks. The research included almost all genetic studies done till today based on Y-SNP haplogroup testing. The site has become a detailed database, with results of the haplogroups C, E, G, I, J, L, N, Q, R and T. The language is in Turkish, although you can understand very well the results that are printed.

You can make use of the google translate tool for translation(translator).
 
TurkmenCopur said:
At www.turktoresi.com we have published a research about the haplogroups found in Turks. The research included almost all genetic studies done till today based on Y-SNP haplogroup testing. The site has become a detailed database, with results of the haplogroups C, E, G, I, J, L, N, Q, R and T. The language is in Turkish, although you can understand very well the results that are printed.

You can make use of the google translate tool for translation(translator).
Click to expand...

Were there any interesting finds regarding haplogroups R or I? In particular, did you find anything interesting about the relative concentration of subclades in those?

I in Turkey is interesting, because it must have gone in from Europe some way. I'm not sure if it is the predominant cluster, but I know that I2*-B is present. I bet that there is some Balkan-origin I2a as well.

I could be misinterpreting this, but the map here appears to be presented as the migration pattern of haplogroup I, as it relates to Turks. If so, the arrows must be backwards. The center of diversity of that haplogroup is clearly in Europe.
 
sparkey said:
Were there any interesting finds regarding haplogroups R or I? In particular, did you find anything interesting about the relative concentration of subclades in those?

I in Turkey is interesting, because it must have gone in from Europe some way. I'm not sure if it is the predominant cluster, but I know that I2*-B is present. I bet that there is some Balkan-origin I2a as well.

I could be misinterpreting this, but the map here appears to be presented as the migration pattern of haplogroup I, as it relates to Turks. If so, the arrows must be backwards. The center of diversity of that haplogroup is clearly in Europe.
Click to expand...

That is weird, it actually makes no sense. Haplogroup I clearly originated in Europe, and it must have arrived there pretty early from the Middle East. I actually never *ever* heard of any case of Haplogroup I in Mongolia.
 
Taranis said:
That is weird, it actually makes no sense. Haplogroup I clearly originated in Europe, and it must have arrived there pretty early from the Middle East. I actually never *ever* heard of any case of Haplogroup I in Mongolia.
Click to expand...

Unless something is getting lost in translation, this page appears to assert that there were 4 instances of haplogroup I (predicted from STRs with varying confidence) found in a Mongolian necropolis in this study. Interesting if true, but I'm having a hard time figuring out the links.
 
sparkey said:
Were there any interesting finds regarding haplogroups R or I? In particular, did you find anything interesting about the relative concentration of subclades in those?

I in Turkey is interesting, because it must have gone in from Europe some way. I'm not sure if it is the predominant cluster, but I know that I2*-B is present. I bet that there is some Balkan-origin I2a as well.

I could be misinterpreting this, but the map here appears to be presented as the migration pattern of haplogroup I, as it relates to Turks. If so, the arrows must be backwards. The center of diversity of that haplogroup is clearly in Europe.
Click to expand...

You can read the results of haplogroup R and haplogroup I at these pages http://turktoresi.com/viewforum.php?f=86, http://turktoresi.com/viewforum.php?f=88.

Haplogroup R1a is the subclade of R with the highest frequencies. Haplogroup R is found in very high frequencies in Turk tribes and ancient Turk graves, for example it is found in Xiongnu Turk graves. Some of the very interesting results of R in Turks(and also Mongols and Tungusics) are: 95,0% in Bashkirs, 92,9% in Altaians, 82,5% in Khotons, 80,0% in Tuvinians, 78,4% in Shors, 44,0% in Turkiye, and a lot more of these high frequencies.

As for haplogroup I, we must know the fact that many of the Balkan nations are of Turk origin, and have roots in Central Asia/Mongolia. Haplogroup I is found 53,7% in Bosniacs, 40,0% in Tatars, 31,6% in Gagauz's, and also in the study Keyser et. al. 2003(http://turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=4533), 4/27 haplotypes match with haplogroup I, this is very important, as the Keyser et. al. 2003 studies is about ancient Xiongnu Turk graves in Mongolia. This is the reason for the map of I to begin from Mongolia, because if there is evidence of 2000 year old haplogroup I in Mongolia, then the origin should lie there.
 
TurkmenCopur said:
As for haplogroup I, we must know the fact that many of the Balkan nations are of Turk origin, and have roots in Central Asia/Mongolia. Haplogroup I is found 53,7% in Bosniacs, 40,0% in Tatars, 31,6% in Gagauz's, and also in the study Keyser et. al. 2003(http://turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=4533), 4/27 haplotypes match with haplogroup I, this is very important, as the Keyser et. al. 2003 studies is about ancient Xiongnu Turk graves in Mongolia. This is the reason for the map of I to begin from Mongolia, because if there is evidence of 2000 year old haplogroup I in Mongolia, then the origin should lie there.
Click to expand...

OK, I understand the logic of the map now. Perhaps if we think of the Turks alone, then it is possible that some haplogroup I amongst the Turks came from as far East as Mongolia in the past 2000 years. Keep in mind, though, that the general migration trend of haplogroup I in Asia must be West to East due to its obvious ancientness in Europe. So, any migrations from East to West must be recent in genetic terms (as in, it's unlikely to have happened more than 2000 years ago). Both of the candidate subclades for presence in modern Turkic populations (I2a2a and I2*-B) have quite young MRCAs and probably originated west of Anatolia, although where exactly I2a2a came from in particular has been the subject of a lot of debate on this forum. Certainly, though, it was west of Mongolia. Do you know the subclade that popped up in Mongolia? Or have STR values so that we can compare to modern I2a2a and I2*-B?
 
Nevermind, I just found them, here. The only one that looks reliable enough to predict to a subclade of haplogroup I is sample 28, which gets predicted by Cullen's predictor to I2*-B. Very interesting. Nobody in the I2* project matches exactly, because the common modern YCAII value among I2*-B is 19/21, not 19/19, but several (including some from Turkey) match the rest exactly. 19/19 in YCAII is common among the closely-related I2*-A cluster, but so is 19/21, so either could be ancestral.
 
sparkey said:
Nevermind, I just found them, here. The only one that looks reliable enough to predict to a subclade of haplogroup I is sample 28, which gets predicted by Cullen's predictor to I2*-B. Very interesting. Nobody in the I2* project matches exactly, because the common modern YCAII value among I2*-B is 19/21, not 19/19, but several (including some from Turkey) match the rest exactly. 19/19 in YCAII is common among the closely-related I2*-A cluster, but so is 19/21, so either could be ancestral.
Click to expand...

2 haplotypes are I2a and 2 haplotypes are I2b(according to the With athey predictor).
 
TurkmenCopur said:
2 haplotypes are I2a and 2 haplotypes are I2b(according to the With athey predictor).
Click to expand...

You really should use Cullen's predictor instead of Athey's to determine haplogroup I subclades in Asia, because Athey's excludes the most common subclade in Asia (I2*-B). We are really unlikely to see I2b in Asia. For the four samples, Cullen's predictor gives:

28: I2*-B
32A: probably non-I
36: I2a of some flavor
65: I2a2 of some flavor

With the acknowledgment that these have some uncertainty, it looks like you've got one I2*-B, two I2a2a's, and one unknown. See Nordtvedt's tree to see where these fall. I2*-B and I2a2a are not very closely related and probably came from different sources, both west of Mongolia.

Also, I2*-B is unlikely to have continued to the Balkans, as the map suggests. It has yet to be found in the Balkans as far as I know. It is a very thinly spread haplogroup that I thought stretched from Scotland to Iran, but it now appears that it stretches (or stretched) from Scotland to Mongolia. I'm not as certain about I2a2a but I bet that most of it in the Balkans came from the Slavs rather than the Turks. Maybe some of our resident I2a experts will comment. I'm I2*-A myself so I'm more familiar with the I2* clusters.
 
Mongols invaded eastern europe, were stopped in Croatia and most definitely brought back I2a2 with them. Enough fantasy thinking.
 
sparkey said:
You really should use Cullen's predictor instead of Athey's to determine haplogroup I subclades in Asia, because Athey's excludes the most common subclade in Asia (I2*-B). We are really unlikely to see I2b in Asia. For the four samples, Cullen's predictor gives:

28: I2*-B
32A: probably non-I
36: I2a of some flavor
65: I2a2 of some flavor

With the acknowledgment that these have some uncertainty, it looks like you've got one I2*-B, two I2a2a's, and one unknown. See Nordtvedt's tree to see where these fall. I2*-B and I2a2a are not very closely related and probably came from different sources, both west of Mongolia.

Also, I2*-B is unlikely to have continued to the Balkans, as the map suggests. It has yet to be found in the Balkans as far as I know. It is a very thinly spread haplogroup that I thought stretched from Scotland to Iran, but it now appears that it stretches (or stretched) from Scotland to Mongolia. I'm not as certain about I2a2a but I bet that most of it in the Balkans came from the Slavs rather than the Turks. Maybe some of our resident I2a experts will comment. I'm I2*-A myself so I'm more familiar with the I2* clusters.
Click to expand...

My purpose wasnt to define the subgroups, but instead defining the main haplogroups. With athey predictor seems to be the most trustable program for this purpose. Like your comment about Grave 32A, athey predictor gave 42.0% probability of I. But still it is the highest frequency chance. The other 3 have probability frequencies of 91.0%, 71.6% and 88.3%. And the maps are also not based on subgroups, instead using only main haplogroup I.

As for Bosniacs, historians have proven that Bosniacs are of Turk origin, probably of Kuman Kipchak tribe. And it is well known, that Hun Turks from Western Hun Empire, have settled and stayed in Central Europe/Balkans area.
 
To be honest, the idea that Bosnia Haplogroup I is of solely Turkic origin is rather absurd to me.

Haplogroup I (specifically, I2b2) is attested from the Urnfield Culture, specifically from the Lichtenstein Cave in northern Germany which is dated to circa 1000 BC.

While I wouldn't rule that there may have been a migration of Haplogroup I towards the east, from which the Xiongnu may have stemmed, the idea that Haplogroup I originated in Mongolia is absurd. It is far more probable that Haplogroup I and it's subclades are of European origin, and in fact the only European Haplogroup from Paleolithic times. Furthermore, one has to consider that the outgroup to Haplogroup I is Haplogroup J (with it's two main sublcades, J1 and J2), which is found in the Midle East.

This fits with the historic scenario that the first modern humans who settled in Europe came from the Middle East. To say that I2 on the Balkans is of Turk origin is just absurd. What do you make of Basque or Sardinian I2? Are those of Turk descend, too?! :useless:

No offense, but if you ask me that website (www.turktoresi.com) is mixing up genetics with weird Turk nationalist ideas that have no place in science.
 
Well if you read my posts about Ancient Thracians and Makedonians you will find where that I came from,

Kurds are not Turks, but south slavic I,

it is the migration of Vrygians and Bythini to minor Asia

the word Kurd, and the simmilar
Curd
Surd
Serdi
Sherdana
it is simmilar to soldi->soldi-soldati-soldiεr-φυλακας
means soldiers, quardians, moving battalion tribes with women and animals,
in fact in Area of Kurds I _ydna is raised, just east of Vrygia,

the word Surd as the word Kulla Kale Keli , Celi Cheli Calli is found in Balkans before Greek expanssion

in The area of Upper (Greek west) Makedonia we found the word Curd and Greeks translate it as Phylakai -Φυλακαι means border observers and Guardians,

Now according to Byzantines there are 2 turkish invasions, even the name Tiurk is consider Byzantine
the 1rst invasion stoped at Taursus area the Seljuk,
they and only they came from Moggolia area,
Ottomans came from west Persia and Ajerbaizan

Turk in Byzantine means Taursus people, the one who speak Taursus new language,
Ottomans were not Turks But middle east Anatolians or east Caucasians,
the many words with Ancient Greek language, like yok -ουκ, gusell -γοεσα, pambuk-βομβυξ,
proves that only Seljuk came from Moggolia, and Ottomans were mainly from around Caspian Sea, ancient Anatolians,
In fact Byzantines knew that if someones change religion, then must change language,
that is why many autosomal of Turks are simmilar to Greeks,

I don't know if a reasearch has been done, but I am in mood to find Υ-Δνα of early ottomans, and not later Converted, I am suspicius in G -Ydna
 
Taranis said:
To be honest, the idea that Bosnia Haplogroup I is of solely Turkic origin is rather absurd to me.

Haplogroup I (specifically, I2b2) is attested from the Urnfield Culture, specifically from the Lichtenstein Cave in northern Germany which is dated to circa 1000 BC.

While I wouldn't rule that there may have been a migration of Haplogroup I towards the east, from which the Xiongnu may have stemmed, the idea that Haplogroup I originated in Mongolia is absurd. It is far more probable that Haplogroup I and it's subclades are of European origin, and in fact the only European Haplogroup from Paleolithic times. Furthermore, one has to consider that the outgroup to Haplogroup I is Haplogroup J (with it's two main sublcades, J1 and J2), which is found in the Midle East.

This fits with the historic scenario that the first modern humans who settled in Europe came from the Middle East. To say that I2 on the Balkans is of Turk origin is just absurd. What do you make of Basque or Sardinian I2? Are those of Turk descend, too?! :useless:

No offense, but if you ask me that website (www.turktoresi.com) is mixing up genetics with weird Turk nationalist ideas that have no place in science.
Click to expand...

Its interesting you use the word "absurd" so much. If you have read the goals of our site, then you will see that all the thesis in the site are based on academic arguments, including Genetic, Anthropologic and Historical studies.
 
I used it three times. Sure. Where is your problem? My arguments about Haplogroup I do hold, anyways. The spread and diversity Haplogroup I in Europe is well-known. You can also look up the evidence from the Lichtenstein cave. Even Maciamo has maps of the distribution Haplogroup I in Europe on here:

Haplogroup I1:

Haplogroup_I1.gif


Haplogroup I2a:

Haplogroup_I2a.gif


In a nutshell, you have to discard a lot of evidence to make the claim that Haplogroup I originated with the Xiongnu...
 
iapetoc said:
Well if you read my posts about Ancient Thracians and Makedonians you will find where that I came from,

Kurds are not Turks, but south slavic I,

it is the migration of Vrygians and Bythini to minor Asia

the word Kurd, and the simmilar
Curd
Surd
Serdi
Sherdana
it is simmilar to soldi->soldi-soldati-soldiεr-φυλακας
means soldiers, quardians, moving battalion tribes with women and animals,
in fact in Area of Kurds I _ydna is raised, just east of Vrygia,

the word Surd as the word Kulla Kale Keli , Celi Cheli Calli is found in Balkans before Greek expanssion

in The area of Upper (Greek west) Makedonia we found the word Curd and Greeks translate it as Phylakai -Φυλακαι means border observers and Guardians,

Now according to Byzantines there are 2 turkish invasions, even the name Tiurk is consider Byzantine
the 1rst invasion stoped at Taursus area the Seljuk,
they and only they came from Moggolia area,
Ottomans came from west Persia and Ajerbaizan

Turk in Byzantine means Taursus people, the one who speak Taursus new language,
Ottomans were not Turks But middle east Anatolians or east Caucasians,
the many words with Ancient Greek language, like yok -ουκ, gusell -γοεσα, pambuk-βομβυξ,
proves that only Seljuk came from Moggolia, and Ottomans were mainly from around Caspian Sea, ancient Anatolians,
In fact Byzantines knew that if someones change religion, then must change language,
that is why many autosomal of Turks are simmilar to Greeks,

I don't know if a reasearch has been done, but I am in mood to find Υ-Δνα of early ottomans, and not later Converted, I am suspicius in G -Ydna
Click to expand...

I was laughing when i read this post of yours. You say Ottomans originated and come from Persia and Azerbaijan, and basing upon this argument you say that the Ottomans are of Middle East Caucasian origin. Very funny, do you know where the Ottomans came from before the settlements in Iran, Azerbaijan and Syria areas? Let me answer, first of all Ottomans are not another nation, or do not represent the name of a nation, rather Osman is a name of a Turk family leader in the 13th-14.th century. The Ottomans are of the Karakeçili-Kayı Tribe of Oghuz Turks. The Oghuz Turks all have settled in Anatolia, Iran and Azerbaijan areas during the 11th-13th century(with the Selcuk Empire), and came from Central Asia-Turkmenistan area. After the battle of Malazgirt, where the Selcuks(another Oghuz family Tribe who rules a Turk Empire) have beaten the Byzantins, all Byzantins have left Anatolia. And also an important part of the Byzantin armies were of Kuman Kıpchak Turk origin.

And it is also a proven fact by many historians that Turks have been in Anatolia thousands of years before the Oghuz Turks.

So Selcuks did not come directly from Mongolia, but they have migrated from Turkmenistan to all countries between Turkmenistan and Turkiye. But, since the Selcuks are of the Oghuz Tribe, and since the Turk nation has three main tribes, namely Oghuz, Karluk and Kipchak, this means that Selcuks and Ottomans are both descendants of Asian Huns(Xiongnu Turks). So they actually do come from Mongolia, but not in 11th century but during the first centuries.
 
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Taranis said:
I used it three times. Sure. Where is your problem? My arguments about Haplogroup I do hold, anyways. The spread and diversity Haplogroup I in Europe is well-known. You can also look up the evidence from the Lichtenstein cave. Even Maciamo has maps of the distribution Haplogroup I in Europe on here:

Haplogroup I1:

Haplogroup_I1.gif


Haplogroup I2a:

Haplogroup_I2a.gif


In a nutshell, you have to discard a lot of evidence to make the claim that Haplogroup I originated with the Xiongnu...
Click to expand...

If you had read the site carefully you would have seen the evidence. The highest frequencies in your maps are 30-40-50%, look at this table:

1. Bosniac Turks: 53,7%(1. Place), 48,2%(1. Place), 47,7%(1. Place), 42,0%
Çalışmalar: Peričić et. al. 2005, Marjanovic et. al. 2005, Battaglia et. al. 2008, Rootsi et. al. 2004
Sayfa: Boşnak Türklerinde Haplogrup İ

2. Tatar Turks: 40,0%(1. Place), 33,3%(2. Place), 18,0%(2. Place)
Çalışmalar: Järve et. al. 2009, Tambets et. al. 2004, Wells et. al. 2001
Sayfa: Tatar Türklerinde İ

3. Gagauz Türklerinde: 31,6%, 31,3%(1. Sırada), 24,4%(2. Sırada)
Çalışmalar: Rootsi et. al. 2004, Varzari et. al. 2009
Sayfa: Gagauz Türklerinde Haplogrup İ

4. Magyar Hun Turks: 27,4%, 23,0%(2. Place), 21,7%(2. Place)
Çalışmalar: Rootsi et. al. 2004, Csányi et. al. 2009, Csányi et. al. 2009
Sayfa: Macar Türklerinde Haplogrup İ

5. Türkiye Turks: 26,0%(2. Place)
Çalışmalar: Nasidze et. al. 2004
Sayfa: Türkiye Türklerinde İ

6. Cossack Turks: 24,2%(2. Place), 22,7%
Çalışmalar: Balanovsky et. al. 2008, Rootsi et. al. 2004
Sayfa: Kozak Türklerinde Haplogrup İ

7. Xiong Nu Turk Graves: 14,8%
Çalışmalar: Keyser et. al. 2003
Sayfa: Asya Hun Türkleri(Xiong Nu) Mezarlıklarında Haplogrup İ

8. Cuvash Turks: 11,3%
Çalışmalar: Rootsi et. al. 2004
Sayfa: Çuvaş Türklerinde Haplogrup İ

9. Uzbek Turks: 7,0%
Çalışmalar: Wells et. al. 2001
Sayfa: Özbek Türklerinde Haplogrup İ

All populations in this table are of Turk Origin, and the frequencies are changing from 7,0%-53,7%. And this map is based on this table.

haplo_i_harita.png


Please make effort and take time to research things, then try to discuss with me. I dont want to loose any more time with a scum like yourselves.
 

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TurkmenCopur said:
If you had read the site carefully you would have seen the evidence. The highest frequencies in your maps are 30-40-50%, look at this table:

1. Bosniac Turks: 53,7%(1. Place), 48,2%(1. Place), 47,7%(1. Place), 42,0%
Çalışmalar: Peričić et. al. 2005, Marjanovic et. al. 2005, Battaglia et. al. 2008, Rootsi et. al. 2004
Sayfa: Boşnak Türklerinde Haplogrup İ

2. Tatar Turks: 40,0%(1. Place), 33,3%(2. Place), 18,0%(2. Place)
Çalışmalar: Järve et. al. 2009, Tambets et. al. 2004, Wells et. al. 2001
Sayfa: Tatar Türklerinde İ

3. Gagauz Türklerinde: 31,6%, 31,3%(1. Sırada), 24,4%(2. Sırada)
Çalışmalar: Rootsi et. al. 2004, Varzari et. al. 2009
Sayfa: Gagauz Türklerinde Haplogrup İ

4. Magyar Hun Turks: 27,4%, 23,0%(2. Place), 21,7%(2. Place)
Çalışmalar: Rootsi et. al. 2004, Csányi et. al. 2009, Csányi et. al. 2009
Sayfa: Macar Türklerinde Haplogrup İ

5. Türkiye Turks: 26,0%(2. Place)
Çalışmalar: Nasidze et. al. 2004
Sayfa: Türkiye Türklerinde İ

6. Cossack Turks: 24,2%(2. Place), 22,7%
Çalışmalar: Balanovsky et. al. 2008, Rootsi et. al. 2004
Sayfa: Kozak Türklerinde Haplogrup İ

7. Xiong Nu Turk Graves: 14,8%
Çalışmalar: Keyser et. al. 2003
Sayfa: Asya Hun Türkleri(Xiong Nu) Mezarlıklarında Haplogrup İ

8. Cuvash Turks: 11,3%
Çalışmalar: Rootsi et. al. 2004
Sayfa: Çuvaş Türklerinde Haplogrup İ

9. Uzbek Turks: 7,0%
Çalışmalar: Wells et. al. 2001
Sayfa: Özbek Türklerinde Haplogrup İ

All populations in this table are of Turk Origin, and the frequencies are changing from 7,0%-53,7%. And this map is based on this table.

http://www.turktoresi.com/images/BasResimler/Dna/haplo_i_harita.png
Click to expand...

One crucial issue you should consider is that high frequencies do not automatically mean a Haplogroup originated at a specific place. For the same reason, it was originally (before circa 2008) thought that Haplogroup R1b had originated on the Iberian penninsula. However, it was later found out that the centers of R1b diversity lay outside of the Atlantic facade, and that in fact Western European R1b only belongs to the R1b-M269 subclade, whereas Central Asian (R1b-M73) and African (R1b-V88) subclades branched of significantly earlier. Therefore, my question would be what the diversity and variety of Haplogroup I in these Turkic populations, if apparently present, is. Also, the issue exists that you haven't addressed the existence of Haplogroup I outside of Turkic populations, especially if the I1/I2 split probably occured as early as the Last Glacial Maximum, a time which predates the ethnogenesis of the Turkic peoples manifold.

Please make effort and take time to research things, then try to discuss with me. I dont want to loose any more time with a scum like yourselves.
Click to expand...

There's no need to be offensive like that. :petrified:
 
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