Turkish Dna, Research of Haplogroups C, E, G, I, J, L, N, Q, R and T

[barbarian]

1. I apologize if I was little bit harsh, but that guy really upset my nerves anyway... didn't I said how Turks brought J1 to some countries in south east europe? before turks invaded european byzantine part of empire and before they even conqured byzantine western part of anatolia, they were in conflicts on east with arabs, mixing, fighting etc... after that, Ottomans invaded Byzantines, same ottomans who were mixing with arabs on some levels, not great levels, but considerable enough...

2. J1 is present in Portugal (not much, only 3%), due to moorish conquest of Iberian peninsula, same thing goes with Sicily and south Italy, so it's not all Italy, only south Italy with 5% percentage of J1 due to Arabian conquest of Sicily, there is no other explenation...

J2 was already present there long time before arabs came, but J1 came with arabs...

and about France, I really don't know where can you find J1 in France above 1%?

3. Turks in Anatolia have around 10% of J1, which is result of mixing with arabs on some level, later brought to some Balkan countries but not on great level, not above 5% anywhere in Europe. I'm not an exepert in Turkish genetic when it comes about "non-european" haplogroups, but I know that turks in general have around 30% of "non-european" genes, in terms of genes not related anywhere in Europe, haplogroups like J1, T, Q etc...

All of "european" haplogroups in Anatolia and european Turkey around Istanbul, such as J2 (highest amongst turks), E1b1b, G2a is asimilated by original turks from original autohtone pre-ottoman society of anatolia.

For example, turks doesn't have I2a2 above 5%, I1 is 0%, I2b is 0%, R1a is around 6% because of slavic migrations there durin ottoman empire, G2a is 11% (most dominant in Ossetia and Georgia), also due to the fact of mixing with those people there...

But, turks have 16% of R1b, my explanation of that is turks got it from Armenians, who have high percentege of that R1b on east.

That's about all...

i am also not expert on any kind of genetics topic. so lets check together at least these links:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml
http://www.rastider.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Dunya-Haplogrup-Haritasi.png
http://www.genebase.com/learning/article/11

and then go on discussion

 

[sonici]

As a Cuman/Kipchak/Turkic from Turkey, you guys have so many absurd talking here.. I've read your comments and you guys don't even know what the haplogroups are.
Genetics haplogroups(eye type, eye color, hair type, hair color, finger type etc.) : A to Z yes.
Y-DNA: your father's ancestry, father's DNA(your racial-generic DNA)
MT-DNA: your mother's DNA, it just effects your genetics... not your ancestry.
The people who have R DNA in Germany: Celts of Germany.
Turkic DNA haplogroups: R1a, R1b ... it doesn't mean "If the R haplogroups from same class", the Greek named "Iapetoc" was trying to confuse the thinks of you guys. An advice from me to you, if you're discussing about the Turks, don't trust what Greeks say (Historical events among Turks<-Turkics and Greeks)
I DNA(Y-DNA=Racial): Germanic DNA"
R DNA: Turkic(You know: Oghuzes and Kipchaks), Celtic(Some British, German) , Sarmat, Alan, Basque(Some Spanish), Galician(Some Spanish), Thrace(Alexander the Great), Etruscan(Rome founders), Trojan(some sources: Franks), Viking(Rus founders and some Scandinavians), Serb(I think they're descended from Turkic/Avars)"
___________________
First of all R1a, which is found among Kyrgyz Turks about 60-70%, Shor Turks 58.8%, Teleuts Turks 55.3%, Altai Turks 53.1%. Bashkirs are an exception, they have 86% R1b. The non-Mongoloid skulls found by archeologists in the most ancient layers of Altai and Central Asia only prove that the Türks from the very beginning were both Mongoloids, and non-Mongoloids.
If u'r intersted in further reading I'd recomend you:
M. Zakiev, Origin of Türks and Tatars: Part 1, First chapter


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Turkic
Andronovo:http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a_migration_map.jpg

Some people have meant here to confuse you again "The Turks have lived in the far east, how could they've R DNA so related with Westerns"
I'm going to answer:

Turanian culture: Steppe-nomadic culture
Celt: Nomad
Sarmatian: Nomad
Thrace: Nomad
Etruscan-Trojan: Nomad
Hun: Nomad (Turkic)
Scythian: Nomad (Central Asian arms of Scythians: The Turks, Turkic tribes)
Viking:Nomad
___________
Central Asia grave genetic DNA researches:
Xiaohe: R %100
I call the people who have R DNA as: They're Turanian because they've same ancestry with us, according to some Europeans(like Hitler, I think he was Turkic Khazar: Ashkenazi Jew): we all who have R DNA are Aryans.

 

[mihaitzateo]

As a Cuman/Kipchak/Turkic from Turkey, you guys have so many absurd talking here.. I've read your comments and you guys don't even know what the haplogroups are.
Genetics haplogroups(eye type, eye color, hair type, hair color, finger type etc.) : A to Z yes.
Y-DNA: your father's ancestry, father's DNA(your racial-generic DNA)
MT-DNA: your mother's DNA, it just effects your genetics... not your ancestry.
The people who have R DNA in Germany: Celts of Germany.
Turkic DNA haplogroups: R1a, R1b ... it doesn't mean "If the R haplogroups from same class", the Greek named "Iapetoc" was trying to confuse the thinks of you guys. An advice from me to you, if you're discussing about the Turks, don't trust what Greeks say (Historical events among Turks<-Turkics and Greeks)
I DNA(Y-DNA=Racial): Germanic DNA"
R DNA: Turkic(You know: Oghuzes and Kipchaks), Celtic(Some British, German) , Sarmat, Alan, Basque(Some Spanish), Galician(Some Spanish), Thrace(Alexander the Great), Etruscan(Rome founders), Trojan(some sources: Franks), Viking(Rus founders and some Scandinavians), Serb(I think they're descended from Turkic/Avars)"
___________________
First of all R1a, which is found among Kyrgyz Turks about 60-70%, Shor Turks 58.8%, Teleuts Turks 55.3%, Altai Turks 53.1%. Bashkirs are an exception, they have 86% R1b. The non-Mongoloid skulls found by archeologists in the most ancient layers of Altai and Central Asia only prove that the Türks from the very beginning were both Mongoloids, and non-Mongoloids.
If u'r intersted in further reading I'd recomend you:
M. Zakiev, Origin of Türks and Tatars: Part 1, First chapter


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Turkic
Andronovo:http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a_migration_map.jpg

Some people have meant here to confuse you again "The Turks have lived in the far east, how could they've R DNA so related with Westerns"
I'm going to answer:

Turanian culture: Steppe-nomadic culture
Celt: Nomad
Sarmatian: Nomad
Thrace: Nomad
Etruscan-Trojan: Nomad
Hun: Nomad (Turkic)
Scythian: Nomad (Central Asian arms of Scythians: The Turks, Turkic tribes)
Viking:Nomad
___________
Central Asia grave genetic DNA researches:
Xiaohe: R %100
I call the people who have R DNA as: They're Turanian because they've same ancestry with us, according to some Europeans(like Hitler, I think he was Turkic Khazar: Ashkenazi Jew): we all who have R DNA are Aryans.

Lol,are you serious with Aryans superior race?
You should know that most high-tech factories are in East Asia,not in Germany,neither in Poland,where R1A is very high.
Highest speed train from the world,is in China,Taiwan manufactured electronics are known for being best,Japan made cars,between best and so on.
Original Turkic people were mostly Mongoloid,I think.
And Hitler's theory with Mongoloid people being untermenschen is just pure idiocy,read above,about the mongoloid race achievements,you know,most competitive people in the world are in Singapore,which are mostly Mongoloid race.

 

[Aaron1981]

Junk post. Evidence is pointing towards Turkics and other Mongoloid people being Q1a, but on top of that C3, N1b, and on some rare occassions O3 will sneak in there too.
R1a/R1b are European types which originated in the western southern most steppes. The East Asians (Turks, Mongols) were further north and east.

 

[LeBrok]

As a Cuman/Kipchak/Turkic from Turkey, you guys have so many absurd talking here.. I've read your comments and you guys don't even know what the haplogroups are.
Genetics haplogroups(eye type, eye color, hair type, hair color, finger type etc.) : A to Z yes.
Y-DNA: your father's ancestry, father's DNA(your racial-generic DNA)

It has nothing much to do with race, there is mostly stuff related to being a man, the differences between man and women. Only kids with Y DNA become men. Keep in mind that Y DNA contains 2% of genom. You have to start looking at autosomal DNA, the remaining 98% of genetic information for more info.

MT-DNA: your mother's DNA, it just effects your genetics... not your ancestry.

All our DNA comes from our ancestors, making it inherently ancestral. However it is genetic ancestry and has nothing to do with cultural one.

The people who have R DNA in Germany: Celts of Germany.

As I said above Y DNA has nothing to do with cultural ancestry, such as being German or Celt. Have a look here, R1b is a major haplogroup in some places in Africa. Black Africans can have R1b haplogroup or any other. It just depends on who your father is.

 

[albanopolis]

Turkey is a multinational state. Any Dna study is senseless. Its known beyond any reasonable doubt that large numbers of Albanians, Greeks, Bosnians, Serbs, Arabs, Armenians, Georgians, Iranians, Kurd, Bulgarians, Slav Macedonians,Idians, Blacks, Egytians, reside in Turkey. They are mixed up with Turkic people of Middle ages. Haplogroup E v13 in Turkey is mainly, Alb,Greek, Bulgarin, Bosnian contribution.

 

[sonici]

Lol,are you serious with Aryans superior race?
You should know that most high-tech factories are in East Asia,not in Germany,neither in Poland,where R1A is very high.
Highest speed train from the world,is in China,Taiwan manufactured electronics are known for being best,Japan made cars,between best and so on.
Original Turkic people were mostly Mongoloid,I think.
And Hitler's theory with Mongoloid people being untermenschen is just pure idiocy,read above,about the mongoloid race achievements,you know,most competitive people in the world are in Singapore,which are mostly Mongoloid race.

ahahaha, you can't prove me: "R1a" is very high in Poland..
I haven't said Aryan race is superior, these are human made words.. by Adolf Hitler. But every religious person should know as all the holy books(Bible,Torah,Quran) say: Gog&Magog race is superior&invader&leader race.. so
"Mongoloid" is a geograpical(asian) eye type, not race type.. also "White-Black-Yellow" aren't race types too, those are differential terms.. "color racists". Race is lineage for me.. warriorism, comes from ancestry.. Race=Lineage is Y-DNA haplogroups for science.
Animals(that can't talk, not civilized) --->> Cats(class): Lion race-Tiger race-Bobcat race-Pet cat race)", Birds(class): " etc..
Humans(Class) --->> Turanian race(Hun=Turk, Celt, Sarmat, Etruscan, Trojan, Thrace, Viking, Basque, Galicia <- Y-DNA: R), Germanic race(Y-DNA: I) etc.
Ancient Turks: Europid(Skull) with Mongoloid(eye type)" ..
Grave DNA researches about proto-Turks: Y-DNA "R" haplogroup with "Europid(skull)-Mongoloid(eye)" type, yes it can be they mixed but still their paternal(Y-DNA = Racial) ancestry is Turkic
Xiaohe(China) graveyards: %100 R DNA
Europid with Mongoloid, from Central Asia of 1-5century(Hun period): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Europid_with_mongoloid_admixture._Kyrgyzstan_1-5century_a.d..jpg
Adolf Hitler was an Ashkenazi Jew, he is related with Turkic tribes, but I won't talk more about his ancestry, if you research you'll find somethings. And also Vlad Drakula(Vlad III) was a Turkic Cuman from Basarab Dynasty.
If Black Africans can have Y-DNA, good detect! which means they have same paternal=racial ancestry with us! I'm not differential racist, I never separate people according to color.. and Y-DNA what race is..

 

[sonici]

It has nothing much to do with race, there is mostly stuff related to being a man, the differences between man and women. Only kids with Y DNA become men. Keep in mind that Y DNA contains 2% of genom. You have to start looking at autosomal DNA, the remaining 98% of genetic information for more info.


All our DNA comes from our ancestors, making it inherently ancestral. However it is genetic ancestry and has nothing to do with cultural one.

As I said above Y DNA has nothing to do with cultural ancestry, such as being German or Celt. Have a look here, R1b is a major haplogroup in some places in Africa. Black Africans can have R1b haplogroup or any other. It just depends on who your father is.

First, this map is general that means nonsense... does this map make DNA test for +70million population of Turkey?? really good experience. How imporant we have different genetics=eye color, eye type, hair type.. Don't we have same paternal ancestry with Y-DNA R haplogroup??
Y-DNA is paternal=racial DNA, genetics(hair type-color, eye type-color, body type) are different from this thing. Where does sperm come? then you have to think with your brain to understand it.
You can find with genetics which races your ancestors mixed with.. also these are your genetic type from the races that your ancestors mixed with.
Y-DNA: is your paternal ancestry, the beginning of humanity.

 

[sonici]

Turkey is a multinational state. Any Dna study is senseless. Its known beyond any reasonable doubt that large numbers of Albanians, Greeks, Bosnians, Serbs, Arabs, Armenians, Georgians, Iranians, Kurd, Bulgarians, Slav Macedonians,Idians, Blacks, Egytians, reside in Turkey. They are mixed up with Turkic people of Middle ages. Haplogroup E v13 in Turkey is mainly, Alb,Greek, Bulgarin, Bosnian contribution.

Hahahah! saying "Dna study is senseless." you're another ultra ignorant..
Y-DNA is your paternal=racial ancestry, your racial features come from your father but genetic features(hair type-color, eye type-color) from both..! :bored: Then, yes.. Turkey is a multi-ethnic country with %65-70 Turkic population(50-55 million) there were Turkic Cumans from Georgian nation who my ancestors were one of them. Because of our genetics and we haven't related with Pontic Greeks according to my father

 

[LeBrok]

First, this map is general that means nonsense... does this map make DNA test for +70million population of Turkey?? really good experience. How imporant we have different genetics=eye color, eye type, hair type.. Don't we have same paternal ancestry with Y-DNA R haplogroup??
Y-DNA is paternal=racial DNA, genetics(hair type-color, eye type-color, body type) are different from this thing. Where does sperm come? then you have to think with your brain to understand it.
You can find with genetics which races your ancestors mixed with.. also these are your genetic type from the races that your ancestors mixed with.
Y-DNA: is your paternal ancestry, the beginning of humanity.

No it is not. Y DNA is only 2% of all DNA and doesn't seem to contain any phenotype, physical characteristics that make differences between races. This is what science says. It is autosomal DNA that makes us different, not the uniparental markers.

 

[sonici]

No it is not. Y DNA is only 2% of all DNA and doesn't seem to contain any phenotype, physical characteristics that make differences between races. This is what science says. It is autosomal DNA that makes us different, not the uniparental markers.

What?, What?? I haven't ever seen an ignorant like you in my all life, zuhahahaha :grin: :grin:
"Y-DNA is paternal" "Paternal is Y-DNA" .... NO-->> %, THERE IS NO % ABOUT Y-DNA haplogroups, Y-DNA means your father's paternal ancestry!!
Sperm=from father(Y-DNA) .... How can I explain it to you, you ignorantistic???
Characteristic=personal, not racial.
Culture=personal, growning type..
Racial features(paternal=Y-DNA): being warrior, being invader.. because you're sperm of your father, you're just a part of your father.
Genetic DNA: physical look"
MTDNA: Your mother's DNA, women have not Y-DNA haplogroup.. you can't see it in them during DNA tests, Mothers are just carrier.
You're not a DNA professor, then so much ignorant about DNA haplogroups.. I'm a Turanist, and so much caring about races&DNA haplogroups.
A-Z <- genetic haplogroups are different than Y-DNA&MTDNA haplogroups.
Your R DNA says you have same ancestry with Turkic people and so many Europeans, probably you're a Trojan Frank or Celtic British? who knows?? do you have "genetic" hairy type about %1-%100?? your comments about Y-DNA shows you're anti "Race", you're against the "Race", you're moving with your feelings about what's Y-DNA .... so leave the feelings then talk me about the subject. who are you? Celtic European, or Scandinavian Viking or Trojan Frank?
-----
As I said, Animals(that can't talk, not civilized) --->> Cats(class): Lion race[White Lion, Yellow Lion]-Tiger race[Bengal Tiger, Siberian Tiger, White Tiger]-Bobcat race-Pet cat race", Birds(class): " etc..
Humans(Class) --->> Turanian race(Hun=Turk, Celt, Sarmat, Etruscan, Trojan, Thrace, Viking, Basque, Galicia <- Y-DNA: R), Germanic race(Y-DNA: I) etc.

 

[sonici]

I'm new to this site, just stumbled upon it when researching I1*. My father's Y-DNA belongs to this group based on 23andMe results. As far as we know, his father and grandfather are from the Black Sea in Turkey -around Giresun-. Any idea whether I1* is common in this region? They were Muslims, though not religious.

Old but interesting, my hometown is Giresun too.. but there were Greeks and Armenians here during WWI, my mother's ancestors are from Sivas-Erzincan cities of Turkey, southern of Giresun.. I wondered if your ancestors are Turkic, Greek or Armenian. My father's ancestors are Georgian "Cuman/Kipchak/Turks" who have invaded Pontic Greek empire.

 

[hope]

What?, What?? I haven't ever seen an ignorant like you in my all life, zuhahahaha :grin: :grin:
"Y-DNA is paternal" "Paternal is Y-DNA" .... NO-->> %, THERE IS NO % ABOUT Y-DNA haplogroups, Y-DNA means your father's paternal ancestry!!
Sperm=from father(Y-DNA) .... How can I explain it to you, you ignorantistic???
Characteristic=personal, not racial.
Culture=personal, growning type..
Racial features(paternal=Y-DNA): being warrior, being invader.. because you're sperm of your father, you're just a part of your father.
Genetic DNA: physical look"
MTDNA: Your mother's DNA, women have not Y-DNA haplogroup.. you can't see it in them during DNA tests, Mothers are just carrier.
You're not a DNA professor, then so much ignorant about DNA haplogroups.. I'm a Turanist, and so much caring about races&DNA haplogroups.
A-Z <- genetic haplogroups are different than Y-DNA&MTDNA haplogroups.
Your R DNA says you have same ancestry with Turkic people and so many Europeans, probably you're a Trojan Frank or Celtic British? who knows?? do you have "genetic" hairy type about %1-%100?? your comments about Y-DNA shows you're anti "Race", you're against the "Race", you're moving with your feelings about what's Y-DNA .... so leave the feelings then talk me about the subject. who are you? Celtic European, or Scandinavian Viking or Trojan Frank?
-----
As I said, Animals(that can't talk, not civilized) --->> Cats(class): Lion race[White Lion, Yellow Lion]-Tiger race[Bengal Tiger, Siberian Tiger, White Tiger]-Bobcat race-Pet cat race", Birds(class): " etc..
Humans(Class) --->> Turanian race(Hun=Turk, Celt, Sarmat, Etruscan, Trojan, Thrace, Viking, Basque, Galicia <- Y-DNA: R), Germanic race(Y-DNA: I) etc.

Few things..
1/ Y- DNA is DNA inherited from father. It passes from father to son. Males with common paternal ancestor have similar Y-DNA.
2/ mtDNA is carried by both males and females but is inherited only from the mother.
3/ Autosomal DNA...is responsible for most physical characteristics.. height, eye colour etc. It is inherited from both parents. both sons and daughters carry it. You have been told this already.
4/ And very important ...read the Eupedia rules. Perhaps in future you will post without calling people names or entering into personal attacks.

 

[LeBrok]

First, watch your attitude towards others or you'll be banned quickly.

so leave the feelings then talk me about the subject.

Show us scientific data to support your statement:

Racial features(paternal=Y-DNA): being warrior, being invader..

 

[sonici]

First, watch your attitude towards others or you'll be banned quickly.

<- hahahah! are you afraid of my informations?? I don't care if I get banned "quickly" or "anytime" lool :grin:

Show us scientific data to support your statement:

DNA <- is scientific, is it enough for you..? :wary2: you didn't even know what DNA haplogroups are and you're still talking man! etrified: I explained the same, learn from him:

Few things..
1/ Y- DNA is DNA inherited from father. It passes from father to son. Males with common paternal ancestor have similar Y-DNA.
2/ mtDNA is carried by both males and females but is inherited only from the mother.
3/ Autosomal DNA...is responsible for most physical characteristics.. height, eye colour etc. It is inherited from both parents. both sons and daughters carry it. You have been told this already.
4/ And very important ...read the Eupedia rules. Perhaps in future you will post without calling people names or entering into personal attacks.

,
By the way, answer for "4/" I've discussed on "interpals" forum ever and I haven't use insults against someone about these subjects ever.. I move carefully on the forums, the right people win on the forums..
Y-DNA = "paternal=what race is", sperm from father..(logical)
Genetic DNA=Autosomal.. <- genetics(hair-eye type, hair-eye color) aren't important about racial because it doesn't determines your race. :useless: Think like, can a soil give to you a rose if you haven't planted the seed of rose? NO! if you plant rose, you take rose.. if you plant potato, you take potato. If "sperm(seed) belongs to father, the son who was born will be from the race of his father..

 

[hope]

Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
Few things..
1/ Y- DNA is DNA inherited from father. It passes from father to son. Males with common paternal ancestor have similar Y-DNA.
2/ mtDNA is carried by both males and females but is inherited only from the mother.
3/ Autosomal DNA...is responsible for most physical characteristics.. height, eye colour etc. It is inherited from both parents. both sons and daughters carry it. You have been told this already.
4/ And very important ...read the Eupedia rules. Perhaps in future you will post without calling people names or entering into personal attacks. :

You see the name of the poster, that thing to left of screen, is usually enough of a clue to the members here regarding who posted . Not so much for you, it appears. The quote you answered was mine..not the poster LeBrok . I don`t even know how you managed this!
You have been told what role Autosomal DNA plays...what is it you don`t grasp about the information?
And as for your rose seeds, potato seeds or whatever horticultural seeds you have, I think even here you will find they contain the DNA of female plant but can`t develop into complete seeds without the added DNA of male plant...you`re not so good at gardening either, are you?

 

[sonici]

You see the name of the poster, that thing to left of screen, is usually enough of a clue to the members here regarding who posted . Not so much for you, it appears. The quote you answered was mine..not the poster LeBrok . I don`t even know how you managed this!
You have been told what role Autosomal DNA plays...what is it you don`t grasp about the information?
And as for your rose seeds, potato seeds or whatever horticultural seeds you have, I think even here you will find they contain the DNA of female plant but can`t develop into complete seeds without the added DNA of male plant...you`re not so good at gardening either, are you?

Not so much for you, it appears. The quote you answered was mine..not the poster LeBrok . I don`t even know how you managed this!

<- "forgetfulness" is a Human feature that very ordinary, don't blame me with this ordinary mistake.. the cause of, you wanted to blacken my thesis. so don't console yourself
Hahahah! did you know what happened? it just like you're appyling my trap against me

And as for your rose seeds, potato seeds or whatever horticultural seeds you have, I think even here you will find they contain the DNA of female plant but can`t develop into complete seeds without the added DNA of male plant...you`re not so good at gardening either, are you?

"there is no male or female of plant" <- sorry, your brain is died here ... the plant looking is: "Autosomal=genetics" man.. it just includes looking, okay? the second is, it has nothing to do with gardering.. it's about thinking logical, Plant=Human=Animal
. As I said

Think like, can a soil give to you a rose if you haven't planted the seed of rose? NO! if you plant rose, you take rose.. if you plant potato, you take potato. If "sperm(seed) belongs to father, the son who was born will be from the race of his father..

The one of facts here you don't know, this is why you're still not understanding :bored: :indifferent:
Potato: Plant.
Rose: Plant.

 

[Ike]

it's about thinking logical, Plant=Human=Animal

All vs. Zombies?
Or just representatives fight: Robert Plant, Brad Pit and Snoopy vs. Rob Zombie?

 

[Alan]

It is true that autosomal DNA is mostly responsible for physical appearance but I think y and mtDNA play a bigger role as we might know for now. There must be a reason that even in our genome these two things are "highlighted". Y and mtDNA might have effects on some characteristics.

 

[LeBrok]

It is true that autosomal DNA is mostly responsible for physical appearance but I think y and mtDNA play a bigge rrole as we might know for now. Ther emust be a reason that even in our genome these two things are "highlighted". Y and mtDNA might have effects on some characteristics.

Of course, but our arguments were against this ridiculous statement:

Racial features(paternal=Y-DNA): being warrior, being invader..