Turkish Dna, Research of Haplogroups C, E, G, I, J, L, N, Q, R and T

[how yes no 2]

Dalmat, I fail to see any relation of your post to topic....
I was talking about turkish origin of proto-Croats which fits well in the topic...

Serf, name of your nation is based on social status.Stop with the word games!

what games? proto-Croats are turkic...
that is clearly stated in the books of some respectable historians...

but if you do not trust me...
find out why Huns and Croats are only people (among all people who ever lived in Europe) known for trading in marten skins...
well, take Croat money from pocket and read its name...
"kuna" = marten
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_kuna

on other hand, Dalmats are most likely not really Croats... so you are probably not turkic in origin if that is what irritated you so much... I see nothing wrong with people being turkic in origin... with respect to origin and race, all people are equally worth... that is clear to any civilized person...

Really, you are nothing more then product of Peasant Revolt, Serfs are mix of Cincars from Macedonia, Anatolians, Greeks,Bulgarians and Croats, which spread like bacterial infestation during 500 years of Ottoman.

uhm, Croats spread like bacteria infestation...
well, ok...if that is how you see it...

yes, well turkic Croats did indeed spread their cultural influence and tribal identity (via catholicism) from the pink area on the map from previous post into originally Slavic and Serb ethnic body (respectively blue and green in Croatia map) and into continuation of green area in west Herzegovina but not further than that....

You speak Croatian, and majority of Serf dialects in Servia are much closer to Bulgarian and Macedonian, than your official dirty Croatian, with inferior grammar.

guess non-dirtiness of Croatian language is in using lot of infinitives and in inventing new words for modern international words...
any linguist will tell you that increased use of infinitives is by people who speak non-native language...

Your father of "Servian" language, a Cincar with roots from FJROM named V.S.Karadžić, was expeled from servia by servian nobles because of sightly altered Croatian language for serbian schooling.

I fail to see why is in your world bad to be Cincar, Anatolian, turkic, Greek, Serb....

as far as I know Vuk Karadzic is from west Serbia but his family has Serb origin from Drobnjak clan from what is now east part of Montenegro... but I really don't care if he was Martian... he did some great things - he improved writing system to be absolutely phonetic (1 letter = 1 sound) and he collected lot of cultural heritage - stories, riddles, epic and liric poems and published it in set of books... if it wasnot for him that treasure would be lost...

 

[archaiocapilos]

Hahaha!!! Did you notice that this guy is trying to prove that R, I, J and G origin from Turks? I knew that Turks are not that good with science but he has overcome any other Turk i have known so far.

 

[iapetoc]

Hahaha!!! Did you notice that this guy is trying to prove that R, I, J and G origin from Turks? I knew that Turks are not that good with science but he has overcome any other Turk i have known so far.

yeah do you know what they in their country, and in their Blogs,

Baltic people are the Turks of the North,

In fact they call them the Turks of the North,

Al dalmatians Bosnian and Serbs are Turks cause I2a2 is simmilar to some Kurds, so half ex Yugoslavia is Turkish,

they colonise them at ottoman time,

they say that Southern Turks stop in Bosnia and not in south Balkans,

 

[aynurrzepa]

yeah do you know what they in their country, and in their Blogs,

Baltic people are the Turks of the North,

In fact they call them the Turks of the North,

Al dalmatians Bosnian and Serbs are Turks cause I2a2 is simmilar to some Kurds, so half ex Yugoslavia is Turkish,

they colonise them at ottoman time,

they say that Southern Turks stop in Bosnia and not in south Balkans,

Hi, Coming back to Turks or rather Turkic speaking ppl of Europe/Caucasus. How about the Azeris? Look at their Y DNAs. MtDNAs are prevailingly European, with H* the highest 27%, HV 6%, T2 10%, U3 2%, U4 8.33%, U5a 8.33%, K 2%, I 2%, W 4% and X 2%, making it total 71.66% and H5 2%, J 4% W & WS Asian and T1 6% Mid Eastern, in total 12 % non European, 16 % other. Azeris are believed to be of first Iranicised and then Turkisised Caucasian stock wirh easrlier Scythian (various types) and later Persian admixtures. On Y DNA, Azeris have 7% R1a (but not sure which subclade - IE or Turkic), 11 % R1b and 3 % I (indifferentiated). Also 18 % G2 (presumable G2a butmaybe Scythian G1), 20% (in some sourcs 31%) J2 and 12% J1 (however this is not differentiated to see if this is semitic J1c3 or caucasian J1*) . They also have 11% T (red sea) and none of the mongol/east asian haplogroups There is 15 Others and from some sources I read this included the ancient F 11% (which is proto -G, J, I, R, K) and ancient K 11% (pre-R1, from Northern Iran). Basically Azeris carry some most ancient DNAs, most of which are proto-European but they ended up with a Oguz Turkic language related to Ottoman Turkish and Turkmen Turkic, as well a Gagauz. How can such ancient ppl of caucasus/Europe end up with a Altaic language? I read here thatn Ottomans were Caucasian ppl with turkuc language... But did they get it, when? Azeris believe their ancestors Oguz Turks were Caucasoid ppl but how can this be? when did thies group of Caucasoid ppl aquire the Altain language and when?

I also think that the hypothesis of Europeans being turks is wrong and that I came from Mongolia etc. I see it as the carriers of these proto-European Cauasoid haplogroups somehow ended up in Mongolia/Uigurustani as we find from the mummies of the Tarim valley, and it;s their HG that are found in modern Turkic and Mongolic, Tungusic speaking Eurasian populations, not that these HGs were turkic and they mmigrated to Europe! The Scythains were also one of Azeri's ancestors, this is see from historical records as wel as from the genetic tests. Possibly some caucasoid Scythians somehow aquited the Turkic language and they brought it to Caucasus? But how and why did they change their original proto-IndoEuropean language to Turkic? And is it possible Scythians (or at least some of them) were Caucasian speakers? It is also believed that Hurrians did not speak IE but Cauasian language, from Nakh family. And where can I find that Avars spoke a Turkic language? Currently Avars in Caucasus speak a Caucasian language. These Avars are believed to travelled from Subartu to Khwaresm in CA/Turkmenistan and from their to Caucasus (wiki refers). Note Subartu=Sabir? it's known more ppl tavelled from North mesopatamia/Anatolia to Cauasus, Nakh speaking Ers (Hers=Hurrians) wiki refers) being one of them (later became part of Cauacasian Iberia and Caucasian Albania). As per wiki, there is a conneciton between Caucasian Avars and Eurasian Avars as to that the latter stole the Scythian Avar's name and settled in North Caucasus. So is it correct to think Avars were turkic speakers or IE Scythians? And maybe Scythians have more Caucasian roots than we think? Although Iranic. IE languages are differrent from Caucasian which are agglutinative languages just like the Mongol and Altaic, Turkic languages. But if early IE have Caucaisian haplogroups, why not presume Scythians also consisted of cauacasian tribes, not only Turkic and IE? Coming back to Azeris, there is over 40,000 Caucasian Avars living in Azerbaijan and some more in Georgia today, all suspiciously closer to ancient Hurrians than to their main home Dagestan. Azeris as i said are believed to be turkified descendants of the Caucasian tribes of Caucasian Albania, who were partly iranised before turkification. And even before the iranisation by Sassanian and Akhamenid Empires, there lived Scythians here, whether they were IE, cauasian or turkic speakers? Did any turkis tribes live in Caucasus in BC?
Sorry, I know I pose more questions than provide info, but I find this turkic-Caucasian-IE connections intertwining all the time accorss the whole of Eurasia all the time and now through haplogroups as well.. Caucasians being such ancient ppl and Cauasus being a site of ancient humans as found in Azykh cave (jaw bone dated 300,000 years back!), can it not be the place from where all post-African migration people originated from before spilling to Central Asia and form there to pontic-Caspian steppes, Balkans and the rest of Europe?

 

[aynurrzepa]

no evidence at all...most people in your list are not ethnic Turks... don't mix genetic origin with combination of religious choice with smaller or greater cultural influence...

bosnian muslims are Slavic people with gene flow from Turkey very likely to be less then 1%, with islam religion and with couple of turkish words in everyday use...

haplogroup I in Turkey is concentrated in Kurds and people who origin from Balkan people...

Chuvash are thought to partially origin from Sabar people who are in fact matching location of earlier mentioned Serboi by Ptolemy and Serians by Seneca...Serians according to Seneca lived in Serica which is north China south Sibir area, in Caspian highlands (where Serboi are mentioned before and Sabirs later), on Red sea, and in Europe around Danube...

ethnic origin of Gagauz is not known... so far there are 21 theories about their origin..

I do not see how Cossacks are Turks... in fact, it is a name for culture not for ethnic origin... Cossacks are most pro-Serb oriented people in Russia...in all previous wars in Balkans there were Cossack volounters fighting on Serb side...in fact, there are theories that name Srb had in Russia meaning soldier and that from that soldier caste Cossacks originated....

Magyars are not Huns...Huns have disappeared, but were Mongolian people thus probably haplogroup C, maybe some Q (as we can find some haplogroup Q in Balkan people)...besides levels of haplogroup I in Hungary fits levels in its neighbourhood...in fact, there are many people in Hungary who origin from south Slavs...note also that east and west Hungary that cluster with Serbs/Croats/Romanians/central Ukraine (see http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/clustering-of-european-y-strs.html) ....that is logical as Slavs lived there before Magyars arrived...

Uzbeks have 7% of haplogroup I... so it is like claiming that Serbs and Irish are same people as both have R1b...

Tatars have 4% of haplogroup I ...40% is just in single place and if you want to find origin of haplogroup I you should study people from that place..as haplogroup I obviously doesnot correlate with Tatars as whole but is only locally present...

btw. nice map...correlates well with Serians mentioned by Seneca...

1st spot you make is south Siberia, 2nd is Serica, 3rd is Caspian highlands (near where Serboi/Serians/Sarbans were recorded), 4th spot in Cappadocia matches people recorded in history Cimmerians/ Syrians in Strabo's writings...5th spot are Serbs...
all those people origin from ancient Serians...

white Syrians are people of Cappadocia in times of Strabo

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...98:book=12:chapter=3&highlight=thracian,eneti

while Cappadocians were called white Syrians
according to Byzantine emperor Serbs origin from white Serbs

now, if you want more details about origin of haplogroup I in Turkey...


it is in my opinion about people who origin from Serians mentioned by Seneca...

Seneca postulates that Serians live in Caucasus, on Red sea, in Serica area (northwest China of today) and in Europe around Danube....


Seneca - Thyestes
http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

Serians produced fleece in Serica in northwest China of today....
Serians from Europe live somewhere around Danube as they dare to cross frozen Danube on bare foot...
Serians from Caspian mountains who live among Sarmatians are clearly matching Serbi/Serboi recorded by Ptolomy in Sarmatia Asiatica... on same place later we find Sabirs... note that this is next to Amazones and that Strabo speaks of Cappadocians or west Syrians fighting all the way to Amazones...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

we also know that Cappadocians likely origin from Cimmerians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians

regarding Serians from Europe...
manuscript of Bavarian geographer records that the state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it....

now, variants of Kurdish language are:
Kurmanji (northern parts of Kurdistan)
Sorani (further east and south)
Zaza-Gorani
Hewrami (a variation of Gorani)

obviously Sorani is same tribal name as Serians....

one of Sorani dialects is called Garmiani, which is clearly corruption of tribal name Germani

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorani

point is this is place of early settlement of haplogroup I (after initial spread from area of Kerman/Germania/Zermanya in Persia, Iran), from there it spread to Europe in several waves...very early wave as haplogroup I1 Germanic people, next one as I2b Germanic people, next one as I2a proto-Serbs....

to Hebrews this haplogroup I people were known as nations of Gomer and Ripath
... note that person named Gomer is thought to be ancestor of Germanic people, and that Riphat is its son.... according to map we can guess that Ripath is in fact forefather of Paphlagonia Veneti, and in 6th century Jordanes claims that Slavic people are of Venetic race... elsewhere on forum I have shown that early Slavs were clearly dominantly I2a people... note that Gomer is Japhet's son and that Russian primary chronicle claims Slavs to origin from Japhet....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japhet

knowing that Veneti completely moved out from Paphlagonia (as written in Strabo's book), we can expect island of genetic imprint of Gomer in Cappadocia and layers of people originating from Gormer and his son Riphat above Black sea...
that is exactly what we see in haplogroup I2a spread

now Veneti from whom according to historian Jordanes early Slavs origin (http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html), lived in Paphlagonia...


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...98:book=12:chapter=3&highlight=thracian,eneti
it is widely accepted Gomer are same people as Cimmerians....



now white Syrians = ancient Cappadocians = Cimmerians = Gimirri = Gomer
gmiri= hero
Kerman/Germania/Zermanya = battle, hero

root word of Serian also hero
suras ‘strong, brave; a hero’ [Old-Ind. súra-h ‘a hero, a warrior’, Avest. súra- ‘brave, courageous; a hero’].
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm


Strabo records story of earlier authors that Paphlagonia Eneti were kicked out from Paphlagonia after joint expedition with Cimmerians... now that joint expedition is logical because Eneti/Veneti are sons of Riphat and Riphat is son of Gomer, and Gomer people are Cimmerians....

but, Cimmerians did return to area and settle in Cappadocia, which is where haplogroup I and I2a hotspots are... Greek authors call settlers of Cappadocia white Syrians...which is same tribal name as Serians...

let's compare archeological findings of Cimmerians and of early Slavs

Thraco-Cimmerians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerians

early Slavs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Slavs

you can probably add to early Slavs areas also Bohemia/Bavaria as Byzantine emperor claims that Serbs came to Balkan from area Boika where they always lived and that neighbours Frankia.. and also Tribalia or upper Moesia, as Byzantine sources in later times use name Tribalians for Serbs, and Russian primary chronicle puts proto-Slavic people prior to Roman empire spread roughly in Moesia (north and central Serbia and north Bulgaria)...

obviously, Thraco-Cimmerians and early Slavs cover exactly the same area... this area is mostly marked with I2a haplogroup... Cimmerians are in Cappadocia later known as white Syrians, and Slavs are claimed to origin from big state of Zeruiani...
according to byzantine emperor Serbs settled Balkan from land which they call Boika where they also originally lived...Boika is likely land of Boii or Bohemia/Bavaria area where we find toponyms such as Srby and Serviodurum ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Domažlice_District) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Plzeň-South_District) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straubing ) ...Both Bavaria and Bohemia are named after Boii who has lived there originally... Boii related tribe are Scordisci...with Thrachanized part of tribe bearing name Serdi...both Serdi and Scordisci lived in Serbia.... interesting coincidences, right?

http://books.google.com/books?id=3a...istrando imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

Cimbri/Cimbrians thought to origin from Cimmerians (or Cappadocian in terms of Turkey) have a king whose name is Boiorix or king of Boii....north of Scordisci lived Boii, north most Serbia is Voivodina ...clearly Serbia/Voivodina maps to Scordisci(Serdi)/Boii by root word and geographical orientation... soldier in Slavic languages is "vojnik"/"bojovnik" again root word is Boii... same as root of words Kerman/Germania, Serians and Cimmerians/Gomer...

now, regarding cultural links between Serbs and Kurds
there is circular dance with holding hands, and relation to wolf...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_culture

this is identical circle dance typical for Serbs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolo_(dance)

circle dance with holding hands exist elsewhere, e.g. in I2a1 areas of Iberia it is called Sardana....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardana

in nearby Sardinia live Sardinians who are I2a1 people....

we can conclude that circle dance with holding hands is probably predating split of I2a on I2a1 and I2a2... while it is absent in I2b and I1 populations who have split much earlier from haplogroup I core...

tribal names Sardana/Sardinia/Sherdana and Serb origin from same same tribal name

lake in Egypt was named after sea peoples known as Sherdana...this lake is called Serbonian bog or Sirbonis...

back to Serb/Slav/Kurd/Cimmerian/Hettite links...
Serbs are related to wolves...national animal that represents Serbs is wolf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_symbols_of_Serbia

Lycia people were related to wolves... at least two leaders of Lycians were called Sarpedon where don might have been title...

word Kurt in Turkish means wolf...
Lycia is same name as for area Lika in Croatia inhabited by both Serbs and Croats... tribal name as Lech (mythical ancestor of Poles) might origin from same word...

btw. key Slavic gods are Perun and Veles

Perun is in fact easily matched to Hurrian Teshub (same God as Zeus) as Teshub's name is in Hati Taru, and in Hititte/Luwian is Tarhun...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor

Similarity of Taru to Germanic Thor indicates that Hati (pre-Hetite people in Asia minor) spoke language alike to Germanic people...
Similarity of Luwian Tarhun to Slavic Perun means that Hittite and/or Luwian people spoke language alike to proto-Balto-Slavic....

let's look at later Gods...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazios

also look at these words from Thracian dictionary

sabazias ‘free’ [Old-Bulg. svobod' ‘free’].
..
suras ‘strong, brave; a hero’ [Old-Ind. súra-h ‘a hero, a warrior’, Avest. súra- ‘brave, courageous; a hero’].
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm

clearly, Sabazios is coin word... it is about Saba+ Zeus = Serb God or God of proto-Serbs?

hand gesture used in rituals related of Sabazios

hand gesture used by Serbs (tenis player Novak Djokovic on picture bellow)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri_prsta

proofs for Slav/Serb/Serian/Anatolian/Cimmerian/Veneti connection are everywhere....
common denominator is haplogroup I2

ethnic Turks came to Anatolia much later... and in small numbers.. modern Turks are genetically not so much originating from original Turks ... they are genetically cousins to Slavs, Greeks, and other Europeans...this is because Europe was likely settled from Anatolia... and Anatolia still has very old variants of key Europe haplogroups... modern Turks are also related to middle east people due to very long history of living in same country...it is hard to tell what was haplogroup of original Turks...

btw. Robert Salinas Price believes that Iliad and the Odyssey were originally written in Slavic-alike language and only later translated to Greek
http://www.homer.com.mx/index.html

Hi.

See this Wiki article on sabirs- Soberoi you mentioned above
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabirs

They are believed to have been Turkic... or at least not IE?

See this article from Hebrew history perspecitve... I find it quite interesting and plausible? Here we see thant Turkic ppl descend from Japhet's descendant Magog, from whom scythians and massagets descended! It says nothing abou the languages spoken by this all those people though so doesn't aswere my quesion I previously posted on how Azeris ended up with a Turkic language... So, were Scythians IE speakers? How did later Turkic ppl aquire their Altaic language - simply by borrowing it from Altaic/Mongol people in their eastern migrations??? So origiannly Turks were caucasoid whites and then mixed with Mongols and became Turanoid in the east but remained caucasoid in the west???
http://www.imninalu.net/history03.htm


Now I wanted to say something about hand holding circle dancing and the wolf totem... Not sure about the rest of Turks but both these are Azeri and Turkish peoples' symbols - the hand holding circle dancing (Yalli, also similar to Celtic, Greek, Kurdish and Turkish dances) and all Oguz Turks (who Azeris believe were caucasoid) believe in mother Wolf, their sign is Grey Wolf - Boz Qurd (Kurt, Kurd) they have a hand sign (used by pan-turkist nationalists) representing a head of wolf (slightly similar to the hand sign you show) and in Caucasus lived Mazkuts who are believed to be Massagets whose Queen was Tomyris and the name of the Oguz Turks Mother Wolf who saved Oguz Turks was Tomiris as well. And although it is accepted Massagetae lived in Central Asia, scholars in Caucasus (In Azerbaijana nd Georgia) believe they lived in Caucasus behind Araxes (and not Jaxartes, SyrDarya, there is a confusion based on Herodotus, as where Massagetae lived - east of the Caspian between Syrdarya and Amudarya, or West of Caspian between Araxes and Kura rivers). Massagetae, Mushki, Mskheti, Maskuts were ether type of Scythians or very similar to them. The link above also says Massagetae lived in Caucasus! Also in Azerbaijan historians believe Cimmerians were one of Azeri's ancesntors as well... Cimmerrians were type fo Scytians as well... Go figure now! I'm really wondering... If what turktoresi website says is right about turkic origins of Europeans with one BIG BUT... even if they spoke a Turkic language later, at the time historiasn refer to, they DID NOT SPEAK a Turkic language then, were not the ORIGINAl Turks 9those are originally from Altai) but some of their descendants aquired Turkic language later... So we can see blood/gene/haplogroup connections between western turks (Turks, Azeris, Gagauz) and Eurpeans, Balkanians, Greeks but no blood connecitons (or very little as with Turks in Trkey) with the actual East Asians, Mongols. The question is how, when and why they aquired a turkic language? And why/how some later again lost that Turkic language to an IE language (due to Scythians, Sarmatians, Cimmerians?) and some retained (like Turks and Azeris, Gagauz?)

 

[aynurrzepa]

Dalmat,

I found this you mau find interesting!

http://www.imninalu.net/Eurasia_maps.htm
http://www.imninalu.net/Eurasians.htm#Sarmatians , page 12 talks about Chroats and the rest of Eurasian/European people's origins. What's writen there seems quite plausible to me. I mean the whole ancestry and history part, not just the who chroats are part . What do you guys think here?

 

[iapetoc]

Hi, Coming back to Turks or rather Turkic speaking ppl of Europe/Caucasus. How about the Azeris? Look at their Y DNAs. MtDNAs are prevailingly European, with H* the highest 27%, HV 6%, T2 10%, U3 2%, U4 8.33%, U5a 8.33%, K 2%, I 2%, W 4% and X 2%, making it total 71.66% and H5 2%, J 4% W & WS Asian and T1 6% Mid Eastern, in total 12 % non European, 16 % other. Azeris are believed to be of first Iranicised and then Turkisised Caucasian stock wirh easrlier Scythian (various types) and later Persian admixtures. On Y DNA, Azeris have 7% R1a (but not sure which subclade - IE or Turkic), 11 % R1b and 3 % I (indifferentiated). Also 18 % G2 (presumable G2a butmaybe Scythian G1), 20% (in some sourcs 31%) J2 and 12% J1 (however this is not differentiated to see if this is semitic J1c3 or caucasian J1*) . They also have 11% T (red sea) and none of the mongol/east asian haplogroups There is 15 Others and from some sources I read this included the ancient F 11% (which is proto -G, J, I, R, K) and ancient K 11% (pre-R1, from Northern Iran). Basically Azeris carry some most ancient DNAs, most of which are proto-European but they ended up with a Oguz Turkic language related to Ottoman Turkish and Turkmen Turkic, as well a Gagauz. How can such ancient ppl of caucasus/Europe end up with a Altaic language? I read here thatn Ottomans were Caucasian ppl with turkuc language... But did they get it, when? Azeris believe their ancestors Oguz Turks were Caucasoid ppl but how can this be? when did thies group of Caucasoid ppl aquire the Altain language and when?

I also think that the hypothesis of Europeans being turks is wrong and that I came from Mongolia etc. I see it as the carriers of these proto-European Cauasoid haplogroups somehow ended up in Mongolia/Uigurustani as we find from the mummies of the Tarim valley, and it;s their HG that are found in modern Turkic and Mongolic, Tungusic speaking Eurasian populations, not that these HGs were turkic and they mmigrated to Europe! The Scythains were also one of Azeri's ancestors, this is see from historical records as wel as from the genetic tests. Possibly some caucasoid Scythians somehow aquited the Turkic language and they brought it to Caucasus? But how and why did they change their original proto-IndoEuropean language to Turkic? And is it possible Scythians (or at least some of them) were Caucasian speakers? It is also believed that Hurrians did not speak IE but Cauasian language, from Nakh family. And where can I find that Avars spoke a Turkic language? Currently Avars in Caucasus speak a Caucasian language. These Avars are believed to travelled from Subartu to Khwaresm in CA/Turkmenistan and from their to Caucasus (wiki refers). Note Subartu=Sabir? it's known more ppl tavelled from North mesopatamia/Anatolia to Cauasus, Nakh speaking Ers (Hers=Hurrians) wiki refers) being one of them (later became part of Cauacasian Iberia and Caucasian Albania). As per wiki, there is a conneciton between Caucasian Avars and Eurasian Avars as to that the latter stole the Scythian Avar's name and settled in North Caucasus. So is it correct to think Avars were turkic speakers or IE Scythians? And maybe Scythians have more Caucasian roots than we think? Although Iranic. IE languages are differrent from Caucasian which are agglutinative languages just like the Mongol and Altaic, Turkic languages. But if early IE have Caucaisian haplogroups, why not presume Scythians also consisted of cauacasian tribes, not only Turkic and IE? Coming back to Azeris, there is over 40,000 Caucasian Avars living in Azerbaijan and some more in Georgia today, all suspiciously closer to ancient Hurrians than to their main home Dagestan. Azeris as i said are believed to be turkified descendants of the Caucasian tribes of Caucasian Albania, who were partly iranised before turkification. And even before the iranisation by Sassanian and Akhamenid Empires, there lived Scythians here, whether they were IE, cauasian or turkic speakers? Did any turkis tribes live in Caucasus in BC?
Sorry, I know I pose more questions than provide info, but I find this turkic-Caucasian-IE connections intertwining all the time accorss the whole of Eurasia all the time and now through haplogroups as well.. Caucasians being such ancient ppl and Cauasus being a site of ancient humans as found in Azykh cave (jaw bone dated 300,000 years back!), can it not be the place from where all post-African migration people originated from before spilling to Central Asia and form there to pontic-Caspian steppes, Balkans and the rest of Europe?

the thing you must understand is that except seljuk all the others are relatives to area,
it is bigger the subject and I don't want to discuss it now,

just think URUK -Yoruk

 

[barbarian]

...
I knew that Turks are not that good with science but he has overcome any other Turk i have known so far.

you must stop writing this kind of post. who do you think you are?

 

[iapetoc]

Dalmat,

I found this you mau find interesting!

http://www.imninalu.net/Eurasia_maps.htm
http://www.imninalu.net/Eurasians.htm#Sarmatians , page 12 talks about Chroats and the rest of Eurasian/European people's origins. What's writen there seems quite plausible to me. I mean the whole ancestry and history part, not just the who chroats are part . What do you guys think here?

you are connecting different things, even kumans that are mentioned have another area than Bosnia,
Turkish propaganda is stuck while many Turkish scientists have seen the ones you don't see.

 

[aynurrzepa]

you are connecting different things, even kumans that are mentioned have another area than Bosnia,
Turkish propaganda is stuck while many Turkish scientists have seen the ones you don't see.

Hi, sorry I could not understand what you wrote.. :-( Could you please re-phrase?

 

[iapetoc]

Hi, sorry I could not understand what you wrote.. :-( Could you please re-phrase?

yes modern Turk scientists slowly are talking about the things you don't see,
they are afraid to speak due to army fear, but the more Turkey becomes democratic, the more they speak,
the old Turkish army speech of Pan-turkish of all non IE etc slowly proves a hoax,

Just think Anonymous attacked Turkey caused IT IS STILL THE COUNTRY WITH MOST Numerous FORBITEN SITES,
that is because although modern turk politician try to bring democracy army still controls the state

there many sites and blogs etc who are forbiden to turks to enter,
before 1 month anonymous were after your state for censorship
good scientists are push to back scene, or afraid to talk
cause some generals force them what to say and what don't

do you know where live the cumans?
do you know with which families are connected?

Bosna and Albania are Islamic countries, we all now that, muslimanized at Ottoman times,
But what makes you believe that they are turks?

islamic culture does not make you a turk

 

[Alan]

Hahaha!!! Did you notice that this guy is trying to prove that R, I, J and G origin from Turks? I knew that Turks are not that good with science but he has overcome any other Turk i have known so far.

Some People may now understand with what sort of people we have to deal back home. I dont claim that the majority is like this but 10% of this Guys are enough to make your life a hell with their theories.

 

[Emi]

I'm new to this site, just stumbled upon it when researching I1*. My father's Y-DNA belongs to this group based on 23andMe results. As far as we know, his father and grandfather are from the Black Sea in Turkey -around Giresun-. Any idea whether I1* is common in this region? They were Muslims, though not religious.

 

[Maciamo]

I'm new to this site, just stumbled upon it when researching I1*. My father's Y-DNA belongs to this group based on 23andMe results. As far as we know, his father and grandfather are from the Black Sea in Turkey -around Giresun-. Any idea whether I1* is common in this region? They were Muslims, though not religious.

I1 is a typically Germanic/Scandinavian haplogroup. There is a small percentage of I1 around the Black Sea, in the Balkans and Russia, and we were justly discussing a few days ago about how I1 go to the region. My conclusion was that it the Goths in the 4th and 5th century, and the Swedish Vikings in the 11th and 12th century who brought this haplogroup to the Black Sea region.

 

[Emi]

Maciamo, thank you for your reply. Can you help me understand what the difference between belonging to I1 versus I1* is? Does the latter imply the genes were tested for all subclads but failed to fit into any category?

I'm a bit confused, and wonder whether there's a website that can complement 23andMe results with more up to date haplogroup information.

 

[sparkey]

Can you help me understand what the difference between belonging to I1 versus I1* is? Does the latter imply, the genes were tested for all subclads but failed to fit into any category?

Yep. I1 has a very recent TMRCA and has an expansion that dates quite closely to its TMRCA, so unsurprisingly, there is still a lot of I1* to be explored and placed into new subclades.

I'm a but confused, and wonder whether there's a website that can complement 23andMe results with more up to date haplogrouping information.

The first places I would look are the FTDNA Project, Nordvedt's resources (check out "Tree and Map for Hg I" in particular), and the Haplogroup I mailing list. Some of those can get quite technical, but plenty of people on forums like this (and on the mailing list itself) are around to help you make sense of it all.

 

[Dale Cooper]

My purpose wasnt to define the subgroups, but instead defining the main haplogroups. With athey predictor seems to be the most trustable program for this purpose. Like your comment about Grave 32A, athey predictor gave 42.0% probability of I. But still it is the highest frequency chance. The other 3 have probability frequencies of 91.0%, 71.6% and 88.3%. And the maps are also not based on subgroups, instead using only main haplogroup I.

As for Bosniacs, historians have proven that Bosniacs are of Turk origin, probably of Kuman Kipchak tribe. And it is well known, that Hun Turks from Western Hun Empire, have settled and stayed in Central Europe/Balkans area.

Can I ask you a favor? Plz stop spreading your propaganda here because you look very funny... how can you say that I2a2 haplogroup have anything to do with Turks, are you crazy or what? Turks don't have I2a2 hg above 4%!!!, hey... 4% I2a2 is haplogroup from Europe, it didn't came with turks, that's the most crazy thing I have ever heard in genetic... EVER.

You should be banned from this site because of your false turkish nationalism racist propaganda... I mean, what kind of idiot you have to be, to claim that I2a2 which is present in Croatia 45%, Bosnia 50%, and in parts of Moldova and Ukraine, "came with Turks", who have it in Turkey 4%... hahahah, I mean... WTF?

You know what is the real truth? the real truth is that you turks, every "european" haplogroup you have, you asimilated it trough your conquest of Anatolia and parts of Balkan, that's the real truth... your original genetic, still very present in some parts of turkey like central turkey is of mongol origin, as ofcourse you origin is, a turko-mongol.

The only thing you Turks ever brougth to some balkan countries like Albania, Bulgaria etc is haplogroup J1 in small percentages in this countries... and also J2 which you brought from anatolia, even though that HG was already present in south europe... but this J1 which is of arabic-semitic origin, is the only thing you turks ever brought to Europe, due to your mixing with arabs trough centuries of conquest in middle east.

CIAO

 

[barbarian]

You know what is the real truth? the real truth is that you turks, every "european" haplogroup you have, you asimilated it trough your conquest of Anatolia and parts of Balkan, that's the real truth... your original genetic, still very present in some parts of turkey like central turkey is of mongol origin, as ofcourse you origin is, a turko-mongol.

The only thing you Turks every brougth to some balkan countries like Albania, Bulgaria etc is haplogroup J1 in small percentages in this countries... and also J2 which you brought from anatolia, even though that HG was already present in south europe... but this J1 which is of arabic-semitic origin, is the only thing you turks ever brought to Europe, due to your mixing with arabs trough centuries of conquest in middle east.

CIAO

i agree with you about "I2a2" stuff, although you are too harsh in selecting words, but... there are some conflicts in your idea.

1- how can turkish origin people brings J1 to europe since J1 belongs to arabia, caucasia and mesopotomia?
2- how could you explain the considerably higher J1 rates in france, italy, portugal where ottoman did not invade?
3- can you give a link showing the corelation between the central anatolia vs "turco-mongol" genetic similarities?

 

[Dale Cooper]

i agree with you about "I2a2" stuff, although you are too harsh in selecting words, but... there are some conflicts in your idea.

1- how can turkish origin people brings J1 to europe since J1 belongs to arabs, caucasians, mesopotiams.?
2- how could you explain the considerably higher J1 rates in france, italy, portugal where ottoman did not invade?
3- can you give a link showing the corelation between the central anatolia vs "turco-mongol" genetic similarities?

1. I apologize if I was little bit harsh, but that guy really upset my nerves anyway... didn't I said how Turks brought J1 to some countries in south east europe? before turks invaded european byzantine part of empire and before they even conqured byzantine western part of anatolia, they were in conflicts on east with arabs, mixing, fighting etc... after that, Ottomans invaded Byzantines, same ottomans who were mixing with arabs on some levels, not great levels, but considerable enough...

2. J1 is present in Portugal (not much, only 3%), due to moorish conquest of Iberian peninsula, same thing goes with Sicily and south Italy, so it's not all Italy, only south Italy with 5% percentage of J1 due to Arabian conquest of Sicily, there is no other explenation...

J2 was already present there long time before arabs came, but J1 came with arabs...

and about France, I really don't know where can you find J1 in France above 1%?

3. Turks in Anatolia have around 10% of J1, which is result of mixing with arabs on some level, later brought to some Balkan countries but not on great level, not above 5% anywhere in Europe. I'm not an exepert in Turkish genetic when it comes about "non-european" haplogroups, but I know that turks in general have around 30% of "non-european" genes, in terms of genes not related anywhere in Europe, haplogroups like J1, T, Q etc...

All of "european" haplogroups in Anatolia and european Turkey around Istanbul, such as J2 (highest amongst turks), E1b1b, G2a is asimilated by original turks from original autohtone pre-ottoman society of anatolia.

For example, turks doesn't have I2a2 above 5%, I1 is 0%, I2b is 0%, R1a is around 6% because of slavic migrations there durin ottoman empire, G2a is 11% (most dominant in Ossetia and Georgia), also due to the fact of mixing with those people there...

But, turks have 16% of R1b, my explanation of that is turks got it from Armenians, who have high percentege of that R1b on east.

That's about all...

 

[Taranis]

Actually, I must disagree. There are strong reasons to assume that J1 and T were possibly in Europe along of G2a with the Neolithic farmers. Alternatively, there's also a good match between the distributions of J1, T and E1b in many places.