Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

[LeBrok]

!!!!!!! free? unification? strong union? no EU no NATO?
something is wrong here,
am I blind?

Confusing if you don't read my posts carefully enough. What I want is one thing, what Ukraine wants is the other. If you remember I was even advocating that it wouldn't be totally bad thing if Greece leaves EU, it would have some positive effect on EU too.
Some countries fit EU some don't. Some countries are ready some are not. Same thing with joining Nato.

 

[Yetos]

Confusing if you don't read my posts carefully enough. What I want is one thing, what Ukraine wants is the other. If you remember I was even advocating that it wouldn't be totally bad thing if Greece leaves EU, it would have some positive effect on EU too.
Some countries fit EU some don't. Some countries are ready some are not. Same thing with joining Nato.

I see your point,

 

[Boreas]

I just want them to have completely free will deciding about their futures.

What a poetric words but don't you think it is worthless. Because reality is chaotic.

If we held an election in Sovviet Russia, Free will of majority would not allow independent Ukraine

If we held an election in all Ukraine, Crimea would be still part of Ukraine

If we ask Tatar diaspora, definately there will be free Tatar Crimea Republic

Which free will do you prefer?

 

[LeBrok]

What a poetric words but don't you think it is worthless. Because reality is chaotic.

If we held an election in Sovviet Russia, Free will of majority would not allow independent Ukraine

If we held an election in all Ukraine, Crimea would be still part of Ukraine

If we ask Tatar diaspora, definately there will be free Tatar Crimea Republic

Which free will do you prefer?

First two examples are easy to asses. Only Ukrainians should decide what to do with Ukraine. Russians shouldn't have a say in Ukrainian matters, or Lithuanian or any other independent country.

Crimea is more complicated. Generally speaking, only citizens of Crimea should have the right to decide about their future. Most likely they would choose to belong to Russia, as majority of citizens are ethnic Russians and Russian economy is better than Ukrainians, giving them a better standard of living as a part of Russia. However, Putin did a mockery out of referendum. First he invaded by force, then the referendum happened under only Russian overseeing. No international impartial body could verify legitimacy of this referendum. In this case I don't think it is a valid one. As I said, I don't think the outcome would have been different, if it was legit, but why to do such a farce? It seems that Putin wasn't completely sure how the voting will go and controlled results with artificial numbers. Exactly the way he learned from Soviet electoral system, as a KGB agent. It was always a farce, and numbers were taken from the First Secretary's head. 99.9% of people always "voted" for Communist Party in Soviet Union.

Furthermore, we can ask a question if ethnic Russians should be able to vote at all. After all it was Russians who forced mass relocation of Tatars and killed thousands in Gulags. It was Russians who conquered independent Tatar state and settled their citizens in Crimea, without any regard to wish of Tatars. Perhaps, Crimea should be returned to Tatars, by some international treaty, and Tatars should decide what to do with Russians in Crimea. Let them stay and vote or kick them out. This is more of moral dilemma, because we know it is not going to happen. At least any time soon, if not ever.

However, if we put this moral ruling against Russians, we have to judge Tatars the same way. From history we know that Tatars themselves didn't behave much nicer to locals, when they invaded this land and took ownership of Crimea by force.

Same with Greeks, they conquered Crimea from someone else. Probably, Scytians were not original owners either. Who should own it then? Maybe it should stay independent, and in future and be an independent state of EU? By the way, I'm sure that in some distant future even Russia will belong to EU. It will take some time though, because Russians need to give up their dream about new Russian Empire first and Tzar Putin, and feel like they belong to Europe as equal.

 

[ElHorsto]

No international impartial body could verify legitimacy of this referendum.

That's not true. International observers were explicitly invited by postal mail. But only a few right and left wing politicians came from various countries, because mainstream politicians were concerned about their reputation, considering the controversy massed by the media. Those who followed the invitation confirmed that the referendum was flawless. But I remember we had this discussion already.

 

[LeBrok]

That's not true. International observers were explicitly invited by postal mail. But only a few right and left wing politicians came from various countries, because mainstream politicians were concerned about their reputation, considering the controversy massed by the media. Those who followed the invitation confirmed that the referendum was flawless. But I remember we had this discussion already.

President of Russia Vladimir Putinduring his conversation with Mustafa Dzhemilev, a former Chairman of the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar People, stated that Ukrainian Independence from the Soviet Union was not obtained legitimately either

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014

Well, even Putin admitted that referendum wasn't legitimate.
Your faith is so strong ElHorsto...

 

[ElHorsto]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014

Well, even Putin admitted that referendum wasn't legitimate.
Your faith is so strong ElHorsto...

You are switching the topic to legal aspects. I never denied the legal controversy, I only stressed the technical flawlessness.

The referendum was technically flawless, as attested by vast majority of samples analyzed by three major western institutes (PEW, GfK, and meanwhile Gallup), and everybody was invited to verify it first hand.

You said that "No international impartial body could verify legitimacy of this referendum." Perhaps I misunderstand you? I understood like you claim that observers were prevented from verifying the correctness of the referendum. This is what I deny.

 

[LeBrok]

You are switching the topic to legal aspects. I never denied the legal controversy, I only stressed the technical flawlessness.

I see.

The referendum was technically flawless, as attested by vast majority of samples analyzed by three major western institutes (PEW, GfK, and meanwhile Gallup), and everybody was invited to verify it first hand.

One think is verification on ground to see if people are allowed to vote. The other is vote count and publishing the true figures. I stand my ground, that final numbers were not true. Though I believe vote would go the way it went, regardless.

One more thing is that there should have been more choices, like total independence of Crimea. As it was stated on wiki page, there wasn't enough time given to consult and formulate all valid points of view of citizens of Crimea. Referendum was controlled by Kremlin with limited choices and rushed through. Enough to make it illegal from proper referendum point of view.

To be completely honest, I don't agree with Ukrainian legal position which states that any province to secede needs vote of whole Ukraine population. It should be limited to voting of citizens of a province.

 

[Ike]

All referendums in former Yugoslavia (considering the breakup) were also illegal, but not that any of EU countries cared. Nor they cared for Yugoslav constitution that had similar view on secession as forementioned Ukrainian.

 

[Boreas]

The Borders are drawn by the Bullies. This is what the way is.

Even referandum issue is not clear.

British law allow it but Spanish not, so even talk about a referandum is out of law in Spain. Where is the right of nations to self determination?

Yes Putins elections didn't seem very clear, however I don't think Ukraine or EU would support a referandum​

 

[ElHorsto]

All referendums in former Yugoslavia (considering the breakup) were also illegal, but not that any of EU countries cared. Nor they cared for Yugoslav constitution that had similar view on secession as forementioned Ukrainian.

I don't know about all yugoslav republics, but at least in Kosovo there was not even a referendum, it was just decided to be an independent state. The minorities like Serbs were not asked. Putin was so relaxed about the legality of Crimean secession and "annexation" because he explicitly referred to the case of Kosovo, and east Germany by the way. All these cases indeed seem to be very poorly covered by international law.

 

[ElHorsto]

That's because you didn't grow up there. Double sidedness of Government is a common occurrence there, almost cultural. Every Russian knows that Putin cannot admit his involvement, that he plays politics with the West, that he is canning and smart this way. Typical for Soviets and in extension Putin. One thing is an official story and other is what people know.

It is just your theory. But what if it is you who didn't grow up there, because you believe in Nemzov's people? I wonder maybe it is you who is not aware about who Nemzov, Chodorkowski and those likes really are.

 

[ElHorsto]

One more thing is that there should have been more choices, like total independence of Crimea. As it was stated on wiki page, there wasn't enough time given to consult and formulate all valid points of view of citizens of Crimea. Referendum was controlled by Kremlin with limited choices and rushed through. Enough to make it illegal from proper referendum point of view.

The Referendum was indeed rushed through, as also Obama confessed that Putin had no grand plan. And yes, the referendum certainly had a purpose.

 

[LeBrok]

What Ukrainians think of themselves

Is Ukraine a European country?

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60%"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D8D8D8, colspan: 7, align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Yes[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]No[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Difficult to answer[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F0F0F0"]
[TD]Economically[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]12.7[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]77.6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]9.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F7F7F7"]
[TD]Socially[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]17.1[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]72.7[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]10.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F0F0F0"]
[TD]Politically[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]23.6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]65.5[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]10.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F7F7F7"]
[TD]Culturally[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]41.9[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]48.3[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]9.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F0F0F0"]
[TD]Historically[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]58.3[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]29.6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]12.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F7F7F7"]
[TD]Geographycally.[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]76.6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]15.8[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]7.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]http://www.uceps.org/eng/poll.php?poll_id=673[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]






Do you consider yourself to be European, to belong to the culture and the history of European community? (regional distribution, age distribution)


[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Ukraine[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]West[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Centre[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]South[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F0F0F0"]
[TD]Yes[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]12.3[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]14.9[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]12.9[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]10.9[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]10.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F7F7F7"]
[TD]Rather yes[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]21.5[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]32.6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]25.3[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]18.8[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]12.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F0F0F0"]
[TD]Rather no[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]28.6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]30.8[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]24.7[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]30.6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]30.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F7F7F7"]
[TD]No[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]31.2[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]14.9[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]30.4[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]33.6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]40.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F0F0F0"]
[TD]Difficult to answer[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]6.3[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]6.8[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]6.7[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]6.1[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[LeBrok]

Do you aspire to the restoration of the Soviet Union and socialistic system? (regional distribution)


[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]West[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Center[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]South[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]East[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Ukraine[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F0F0F0"]
[TD]Yes[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5.0[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]21.3[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]27.2[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]25.1[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]20.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F7F7F7"]
[TD]Yes, but I understand that it`s unreal[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]11.3[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]31.4[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]46.2[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]26.6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]28.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F0F0F0"]
[TD]No[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]83.6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]46.9[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]26.2[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]47.7[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]51.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The poll was held on December 20-27, 2005. 2009 respondents aged above 18 years were polled in all regions of Ukraine. The sample theoretical error does not exceed 2.3%.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

http://www.uceps.org/eng/poll.php?poll_id=288

Interestingly South Ukraine wants return of Soviets, but not the Russian East.

 

[LeBrok]

What languages do you speak?



[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]English[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Spanish[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]German[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Russian[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Ukrainian[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]French[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Other[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F0F0F0"]
[TD="align: center"]12.3[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.3[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]94.1[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]91[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.7[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]6.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]




http://www.uceps.org/eng/poll.php?poll_id=594

What happened to Polish?


Which language do you consider mother tongue? (recurrent, 2006-2008)


[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]May 2006[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Jun. 2007[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Oct. 2008[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F0F0F0"]
[TD]Ukrainian[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]51.4[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]52.0[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]43.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F7F7F7"]
[TD]Russian[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]30.7[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]25.7[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]26.0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F0F0F0"]
[TD]Both Ukrainian and Russian[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]15.6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]21.5[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]28.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F7F7F7"]
[TD]Other language[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.1[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.9[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F0F0F0"]
[TD]Difficult to answer[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[LeBrok]

Of course, we all hope that war will never happen. But if it will, would you defend your country? (regional distribution)



[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]West[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Center[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]South[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]East[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Ukraine[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F0F0F0"]
[TD]Yes[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]66.3[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]52.6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]61.6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]42.1[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]53.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F7F7F7"]
[TD]No[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]14.7[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]26.5[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]24.5[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]34.7[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]26.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F0F0F0"]
[TD]Difficult to answer[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]17.4[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]18.9[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]13.6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]22.6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]19.0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F7F7F7"]
[TD]Didn`t answer[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2.0[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.3[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.2

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


http://www.uceps.org/eng/poll.php?poll_id=283

 

[LeBrok]

What is needed for happiness most of all?



[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 60%"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]Interesting job[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]Own place to live[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]Money[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]Family[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]18.0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]Love[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]Freedom, independence[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]Clear conscience[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]Feeling of being needed[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]Confidence in future[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]35.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]Difficult to answer[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The poll was held on June 19–25, 2008. 2014 respondents aged above 18 years were polled in all regions of Ukraine. The sample theoretical error does not exceed 2.3%.

http://www.uceps.org/eng/poll.php?poll_id=356[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[mihaitzateo]

Lol,dudes,you did not got bored to still argue on this subject?
I am not reading anymore any international politics,it gets me bored.
I do not find it interesting at all.
This is a history,genetics ,etc forum,there are so many interesting subjects, archaeological discoveries and so on,that worth a lot more your attention and time,
than this subject with Crimea.

 

[LeBrok]

Ukrainian government cracks down on Nazis.

[h=1]Right Sector on combat alert’: Ukraine Neo-Nazis refuse to lay down arms after shootout[/h]Ukrainian Right Sector militants, blocked in on the outskirts of Mukachevo after deadly clashes with police, are refusing to lay down their arms without their leader’s orders. Civilians in the area have been evacuated, as negotiations so far have failed.
SWAT police and special units of the National Guard, as well as Ukraine’s Security Service (SBU) agents have secured the area and blockaded members of Ukraine’s ultra-nationalist Right Sector group on the outskirts of Mukachevo, which lies a stone’s throw away from Hungarian and Slovakian border.

http://rt.com/news/273184-ukraine-right-sector-standoff/