Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

[Wonomyro]

One can see national myths for the falsehoods they are and still not support communism :g rin:

Then why are you supporting an obvious national buiding myth about the origins of the Torlakian language?

 

[LABERIA]

I do not see what the problem is, if the Serbs live few meters away from Albanians logically they will have Albanian genetics as well. They think it will disappear from genes, Croats also have Albanian genetics, a smaller part of Albanians have Croatian genetic.

The most accepted theory is that Serbs are one of the Slavic tribes who arrived arrived in Balcans during the Early Middle Age. When they arrived here they found some people here, the Illyrians, the ancestors of the Albanians and it's obvious that there was some mixture between the natives and the newcomers. And from that moment until in our days there are 1500 years of history and during all these centuries both people lived side by side. Just if you have a look at the surnames of the today Serbs you will find plenty of Albanian surnames, always ending with the Slavic suffix iç. Without going deeper, you can find Serbs with surname Gegiç and Toskiç, let alone other surnames. For the God sake, we have to decide if the surname of the President of Kosova Thaçi was Thaçiç or the surname of the Foreign Minister of Serbia Daçiç was Daçi. Knowing the history and how the assimilation works in my humble opinion the surname Daçi turned in Daçiç. This suggests that there is some Albanian contribution on the genetic of the modern Serbs.

 

[markod]

Then why are you supporting an obvious natinal buiding myth about the origins of the Torlakian language?

If Serbian linguists are untrustworthy how about the most famous Croatian linguist HDZ-man Dalibor Brozovic:

 

[markod]

The most accepted theory is that Serbs are one of the Slavic tribes who arrived arrived in Balcans during the Early Middle Age. When they arrived here they found some people here, the Illyrians, the ancestors of the Albanians and it's obvious that there was some mixture between the natives and the newcomers. And from that moment until in our days there are 1500 years of history and during all these centuries both people lived side by side. Just if you have a look at the surnames of the today Serbs you will find plenty of Albanian surnames, always ending with the Slavic suffix iç. Without going deeper, you can find Serbs with surname Gegiç and Toskiç, let alone other surnames. For the God sake, we have to decide if the surname of the President of Kosova Thaçi was Thaçiç or the surname of the Foreign Minister of Serbia Daçiç was Daçi. Knowing the history and how the assimilation works in my humble opinion the surname Daçi turned in Daçiç. This suggests that there is some Albanian contribution on the genetic of the modern Serbs.

It is impossible that Albanian descends from Illyrian, see Matzinger & Schumacher.

 

[LABERIA]

It is impossible that Albanian descends from Illyrian, see Matzinger & Schumacher.

Your opinion is irrelevant. Learn to show some respect for the people here.

 

[markod]

Your opinion is irrelevant. Learn to show some respect for the people here.

My opinion is irrelevant, but Matzinger & Schumacher are the foremost experts on the Albanian language and they have shown that Albanian cannot possibly come from Illyrian. Zero respect from me for people trying to stifle research.

 

[Fatherland]

It is impossible that Albanian descends from Illyrian, see Matzinger & Schumacher.

The Illyrians - direct ancestral links to modern-day Albanians:

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25778

 

[markod]

The Illyrians - direct ancestral links to modern-day Albanians:

Those are haplogroups, we're talking about languages.

 

[Fatherland]

Those are haplogroups, we're talking about languages.

There is too many similarities, for a gap of 2000 years, along with the DNA proof.


Illyrian cognates with Albanian

• Personal Illyrian names, Andena, Andes, Andio, Antis, based on a root and- or ant-, found in both the southern and the Dalmatian-Pannonian (including modern Bosnia and Herzegovina) onomastic provinces; cf. Alb. andë (northern Albanian dialect, or Gheg) and ëndë(southern Albanian dialect or Tosk) "appetite, pleasure, desire, wish".^[20]
• Ardiaioi/Ardiaei, name of an Illyrian people, cf. Alb. ardhja "arrival" or "descent", connected to hardhi "vine-branch, grape-vine", with a sense development similar to Germanic *stamniz, meaning both tree stalk and tribe, lineage.^[20]
• Bindo/Bindus, an Illyrian deity from Bihać, Bosnia and Herzegovina; cf. Alb. bind "to convince" or "to make believe", përbindësh "monster".^[21]
• Bilia "daughter"; cf. Alb. bijë, dial. bilë^[22]
• Barba- "swamp", a toponym from Metubarbis; possibly related to Alb. bërrakë "swampy soil"^[23]
• can- "dog"; related to Alb. qen^[23]
• Daesitiates, a name of an Illyrian people, cf. Alb. dash "ram", corresponding contextually with south Slavonic dasa "ace", which might represent a borrowing and adaptation from Illyrian (or some other ancient language).^[20]
• dard "Dardania"; ostensibly connected with cf. Alb. dardhë, "pear"^[24]
• drakoina "supper"; cf. Alb. darke, dreke, drekojna, darkojna ^{[25][page needed]}
• Hyllus cf. Alb. yll (hyll in some northern dialects) "star", also Alb. hyj "god"^{[25][verification needed]}
• brisa "husk of grapes"; cf. Alb. bërsí "lees, dregs; mash" (< PA *brutiā)^[23]
• mag- "great"; cf. Alb. i madh "big, great"^[23]
• mantía "bramblebush"; Old and dial. Alb. mandë "berry, mulberry" (Mod. Alb. mën, man)^{[citation needed]}
• Ragusa-Ragusium "grape"; cf. Proto-Alb. ragusha (Mod. Alb. rrush)^[25]
• rhinos "fog, mist"; cf. Old Alb. ren "cloud" (Mod. Alb. re, rê) (< PA *rina)^[26]
• Vendum "place"; cf. Proto-Alb. wen-ta (Mod. Alb. vend)^[25]

Also, Delmatae:

The name Dalmatae appears to be a cognate of the modern Albanian word delmë, meaning "sheep".[4] The Illyrian town of Delminium probably shares this etymology.[5]

 

[hrvat22]

The most accepted theory is that Serbs are one of the Slavic tribes who arrived arrived in Balcans during the Early Middle Age. When they arrived here they found some people here, the Illyrians, the ancestors of the Albanians and it's obvious that there was some mixture between the natives and the newcomers. And from that moment until in our days there are 1500 years of history and during all these centuries both people lived side by side. Just if you have a look at the surnames of the today Serbs you will find plenty of Albanian surnames, always ending with the Slavic suffix iç. Without going deeper, you can find Serbs with surname Gegiç and Toskiç, let alone other surnames. For the God sake, we have to decide if the surname of the President of Kosova Thaçi was Thaçiç or the surname of the Foreign Minister of Serbia Daçiç was Daçi. Knowing the history and how the assimilation works in my humble opinion the surname Daçi turned in Daçiç. This suggests that there is some Albanian contribution on the genetic of the modern Serbs.

The problem is that Serbs in this area were political and military power through history and normaly that more assimilated Albanians are in Serbs, that is logic.

In the case of the Croats is another matter, we have Vlach migration to Croatia and now we need to see from where branches of E1b coming.

There is also assimilation of Illyrians in the time of Croatian arrival in the 7th century, meaning those who do not fled to Albania or Montenegro.

Croatian branches of E1b are probably much more interesting to explore.

Along with E1b they are also interesting and Balkans subclades of R1b and J2.


We'll see what the future will say.

 

[Wonomyro]

If Serbian linguists are untrustworthy how about the most famous Croatian linguist Dalibor Brozovic:

Dalibor Brozovic lived in a different time and system. I can't imagine anyone in Yugoslavia to claim that Torlakian dialects are of Bulgarian origin without having drawn consequences.

 

[markod]

There is too many similarities, for a gap of 2000 years, along with the DNA proof.


Illyrian cognates with Albanian

• Personal Illyrian names, Andena, Andes, Andio, Antis, based on a root and- or ant-, found in both the southern and the Dalmatian-Pannonian (including modern Bosnia and Herzegovina) onomastic provinces; cf. Alb. andë (northern Albanian dialect, or Gheg) and ëndë(southern Albanian dialect or Tosk) "appetite, pleasure, desire, wish".^[20]
• Ardiaioi/Ardiaei, name of an Illyrian people, cf. Alb. ardhja "arrival" or "descent", connected to hardhi "vine-branch, grape-vine", with a sense development similar to Germanic *stamniz, meaning both tree stalk and tribe, lineage.^[20]
• Bindo/Bindus, an Illyrian deity from Bihać, Bosnia and Herzegovina; cf. Alb. bind "to convince" or "to make believe", përbindësh "monster".^[21]
• Bilia "daughter"; cf. Alb. bijë, dial. bilë^[22]
• Barba- "swamp", a toponym from Metubarbis; possibly related to Alb. bërrakë "swampy soil"^[23]
• can- "dog"; related to Alb. qen^[23]
• Daesitiates, a name of an Illyrian people, cf. Alb. dash "ram", corresponding contextually with south Slavonic dasa "ace", which might represent a borrowing and adaptation from Illyrian (or some other ancient language).^[20]
• dard "Dardania"; ostensibly connected with cf. Alb. dardhë, "pear"^[24]
• drakoina "supper"; cf. Alb. darke, dreke, drekojna, darkojna ^{[25][page needed]}
• Hyllus cf. Alb. yll (hyll in some northern dialects) "star", also Alb. hyj "god"^{[25][verification needed]}
• brisa "husk of grapes"; cf. Alb. bërsí "lees, dregs; mash" (< PA *brutiā)^[23]
• mag- "great"; cf. Alb. i madh "big, great"^[23]
• mantía "bramblebush"; Old and dial. Alb. mandë "berry, mulberry" (Mod. Alb. mën, man)^{[citation needed]}
• Ragusa-Ragusium "grape"; cf. Proto-Alb. ragusha (Mod. Alb. rrush)^[25]
• rhinos "fog, mist"; cf. Old Alb. ren "cloud" (Mod. Alb. re, rê) (< PA *rina)^[26]
• Vendum "place"; cf. Proto-Alb. wen-ta (Mod. Alb. vend)^[25]

Also, Delmatae:

The name Dalmatae appears to be a cognate of the modern Albanian word delmë, meaning "sheep".[4] The Illyrian town of Delminium probably shares this etymology.[5]

All of this is adressed by Schumacher and Matzinger, but unfortunately Albanian authorities and academics are trying to stifle their research. It makes little sense to talk about it until the situation improves, but we know that a genetic descent of Albanian from Illyrian is exceedingly unlikely.

 

[markod]

Dalibor Brozovic lived in different time and system. I can't imagine anyone in Yugoslavia to claim that Torlakian dialects are of Bulgarian origin without drawing consequences.

You are deluded.

 

[Fatherland]

All of this is adressed by Schumacher and Matzinger, but unfortunately Albanian authorities and academics are trying to stifle their research.

Like the typical Serb you ignore the DNA proofs posted in the thread.
Albanian also shows similarity to Messapic language, which is theorized as Illyrian-descended.

It makes little sense to talk about it until the situation improves, but we know that a genetic descent of Albanian from Illyrian is exceedingly unlikely.

According to who? You and Deretic?

You have been debunked.

 

[markod]

Like the typical Serb you ignore the DNA proofs posted in the thread.
Albanian also shows similarity to Messapic language, which is theorized as Illyrian-descended.


According to who? You and Deretic?

I have never been to Serbia and I have no Serbian ancestors.

Read: http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/austrian-scholars-leave-albania-lost-for-words/

 

[Fatherland]

I have never been to Serbia and I have no Serbian ancestors.

You still are debunked:

[FONT=&quot]The oldest J2b2-L283 sample recovered among ancient DNA samples is a Late Bronze Age (1700-1500 BCE) individual from southern Croatia ([/FONT]Mathieson et al. 2017[FONT=&quot]). His genome possessed about 30% of Steppe admixture and 15% of Eastern Hunter-Gatherer, which suggest a recent arrival from the Steppe. He was accompanied by a woman with similar admixtures, and both possessed typical Pontic-Caspian Steppe mtDNA ([/FONT]I1a1[FONT=&quot] and [/FONT]W3a[FONT=&quot]). The timing, location and admixtures of these samples fit with the [/FONT]Illyrian colonisation of the Dinaric Alps, which is thought to have taken place between 1600 and 1100 BCE. The Illyrians may have been late Steppe migrants from the Volga region that were forced out of the Steppe by the invasion of the northern R1a tribes who established the Srubna culture (from 2000 BCE). Through a founding effect, J2b2-L283 lineages might have considerably increased their original frequency after reaching Illyria.

 

[hrvat22]

It is impossible that Albanian descends from Illyrian, see Matzinger & Schumacher.

We live in the time of genetics, so it would be a good idea to prove it with genetics.

Without that your statement is a story for little children.

 

[Fatherland]

We live in the time of genetics, so it would be a good idea to prove it with genetics.

Without that your statement is a story for little children.

Agreed. The English language, for example, is completely different than what it was a few hundred years ago.

 

[markod]

We live in the time of genetics, so it would be a good idea to prove it with genetics.

Without that your statement is a story for little children.

Illyrian is a language and Albanian doesn't descend from it. Present day Albanians might be genetically Illyrian for all I know.

 

[Fatherland]

Illyrian is a language and Albanian doesn't descend from it. Present day Albanians might be genetically Illyrian for all I know.

The most important words in Albanian are shared with Illyrians.

We can take simple words such as Bard-h for White, and Yll for Star.
Name the Illyrian king. These words didn't appear out of anywhere else.