Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

[LABERIA]

My opinion is irrelevant, but Matzinger & Schumacher are the foremost experts on the Albanian language and they have shown that Albanian cannot possibly come from Illyrian. Zero respect from me for people trying to stifle research.

Look, i want to tell you a short story. A scholar of German origin, but a true German, not an internet warrior hidden behind his PC who pretend to be a german, named Robert Elsie, now he is no more among us, gave an interview to an Albanian television years ago where he spoke as the author of the Historical Dictionary of Albania and Kosova. I will try to translate with the help of my faithful friend Google a small but significant part of his interview:

These books that came out in English recently, are periodical books that includes every country in the world and i was charged with designing a publication for Albania. Called historical dictionary of Albania and Kosovo but in the end are more like vocabulary, general encyclopedia with information not only historical but also about culture, economy, geography, etc.. I started with the volume of Albania. I put a limit on the volume no more than 250 pages needed to do this and when i finished i had more than 500 pages. The publisher was a bit disappointed. She said, "If we walk so, the volume of the country will come greater than the volume of Russia" nonetheless accepted and actually went greater than that of Russia, this small encyclopedia of Albania.

Do you have any idea how much story there is in this country? Do you have any idea of how many authors have wrote about this country named Albania and these people called Albanians? It's a question without an answer. But i will help you to have an idea.
2018 is proclaimed here in Albania the year of Scanderbeg because it's the 550 anniversary of his death. Among other things, i was reading that the number of the books dedicated to Gjergj Kastrioti Skënderbeu was around 1800. 50 years ago, during the 500 anniversary the number of the books dedicated to HIM was roughly 1000. There are even legends and folkloric creations from Iceland to Filipine.
And you really think that you can impress me by repeating like a broken record the name of these two persons, how did you said their names, Norris and Schwarzenegger? Seriously?

 

[Lenab]

[h=2]omans[/h]The original Mediterranean population of Italy was completely altered by repeated superimpositions of peoples of Indo-European stock. The first Indo-European migrants, who belonged to the Italic tribes, moved across the eastern Alpine passes into the plain of the Po River about 1800 BCE. Later they crossed the Apennines and eventually occupied the region of Latium, which included Rome. Before 1000 BCE there followed related tribes, which later divided into various groups and gradually moved to central and southern Italy. In Tuscany they were repulsed by the Etruscans, who may have come originally from Anatolia. The next to arrive were Illyrians from the Balkans, who occupied Venetia and Apulia. At the beginning of the historical period, Greek colonists arrived in Italy, and after 400 BCE the Celts, who settled in the plain of the Po.
The city of Rome, increasing gradually in power and influence, created through political rule and the spread of the Latin language something like a nation out of this abundance of nationalities. In this the Romans were favoured by their kinship with the other Italic tribes. The Roman and Italic elements in Italy, moreover, were reinforced in the beginning through the founding of colonies by Rome and by other towns in Latium. The Italic element in Roman towns decreased: a process—less racial than cultural—called the Romanization of the provinces. In the 3rd century BCE, central and southern Italy were dotted with Roman colonies, and the system was to be extended to ever more distant regions up to imperial times. As its dominion spread throughout Italy and covered the entire Mediterranean basin, Rome received an influx of people of the most varied origins, including eventually vast numbers from Asia and Africa.
The building of an enormous empire was Rome’s greatest achievement. Held together by the military power of one city, in the 2nd century CE the Roman Empire extended throughout northern Africa and western Asia; in Europe it covered all the Mediterranean countries, Spain, Gaul, and southern Britain. This vast region, united under a single authority and a single political and social organization, enjoyed a long period of peaceful development. In Asia, on a narrow front, it bordered the Parthian empire, but elsewhere beyond its perimeter there were only barbarians. Rome brought to the conquered parts of Europe the civilization the Greeks had begun, to which it added its own important contributions in the form of state organization, military institutions, and law. Within the framework of the empire and under the protection of its chain of fortifications, extending uninterrupted the entire length of its frontiers (marked in Europe by the Rhine and the Danube), there began the assimilation of varying types of culture to the Hellenistic-Roman pattern. The army principally, but also Roman administration, the social order, and economic factors, encouraged Romanization. Except around the eastern Mediterranean, where Greek remained dominant, Latin became everywhere the language of commerce and eventually almost the universal language.
The empire formed an interconnected area of free trade, which was afforded a thriving existence by the pax romana (“Roman peace”). Products of rural districts found a market throughout the whole empire, and the advanced technical skills of the central region of the Mediterranean spread outward into the provinces. The most decisive step toward Romanization was the extension of the city system into these provinces. Rural and tribalinstitutions were replaced by the civitas form of government, according to which the elected city authority shared in the administration of the surrounding country region; and, as the old idea of the Greek city-state gained ground, a measure of local autonomyappeared. The Romanized upper classes of the provinces began supplying men to fill the higher offices of the state. Ever-larger numbers of people acquired the status of Roman citizens, until in 212 CE the emperor Caracalla bestowed it on all freeborn subjects. The institution of slavery, however, remained.
The enjoyment of equal rights by all Roman citizens did not last. The coercive measures by which alone the state could maintain itself divided the population anew into hereditary classes according to their work; and the barbarians, mainly Germanic, who were admitted into the empire in greater numbers, remained in their own tribal associations either as subjects or as allies. The state created a perfected administrative apparatus, which exercised a strongly unifying effect throughout the empire, but local self-government became less and less effective under pressure from the central authority.
The decline of the late empire was accompanied by a stagnation of spiritual forces, a paralysis of creative power, and a retrograde development in the economy. Much of the empire’s work of civilization was lost in internal and external wars. Equally, barbarization began with the rise of unchecked pagan ways of life and the settlement of Germanic tribes long before the latter shattered the Western Empire and took possession of its parts. Though many features of Roman civilization disappeared, others survived in the customs of peoples in various parts of the empire. Moreover, something of the superstructure of the empire was taken over by the Germanic states, and much valuable literature was preserved in manuscript for later times.
It was under the Roman Empire that the Christian religion penetrated into Europe. By winning recognition as the religion of the state, it added a new basic factor of equality and unification to the imperial civilization and at the same time reintroduced Middle Eastern and Hellenistic elements into the West. Organized within the framework of the empire, the church became a complementary body upholding the state. Moreover, during the period of the decline of secular culture, Christianity and the church were the sole forces to arouse fresh creative strength by assimilating the civilization of the ancient world and transmitting it to the Middle Ages. At the same time, the church in the West showed reserve toward the speculative dogma of the Middle Eastern and Hellenic worlds and directed its attention more toward questions of morality and order. When the Western Empire collapsed and the use of Greek had died there, the division between East and West became still sharper. The name Romaioi remained attached to the Greeks of the Eastern Empire, while in the West the word Roman developed a new meaning in connection with the church and the bishop of Rome. Christianity and a church of a Roman character, the most enduring legacy of the ancient world, became one of the most important features in western European civilization.
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[Lenab]

You are just very awkward in a creepy way and not even close to what is considered attractive. Nor are you feminine, perhaps that is what explains the presence of yDNA in your profile.

Take my advice and quit replying.

Trust me you are not attractive neither are you male with a female haplogroup. You are creepy and obsessive anyone who says that you are not Illyrian is a Serb or ugly.

I have a Norman wife lmfao.

 

[markod]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapian_language



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians#History

This means that Illyrians from the time of 4th century BC moved to southern Italy in 6th century BC.

Most probably Illyrians had time machine for time traveling.

Illyrian isn't very closely related to Messapian, so I don't understand your point. The details of this is being addressed in newer, unbiased research. Due to a lack of interest there's no English trasnlation of the paper yet, but you might want to use a translator:

https://www.albanologie.uni-muenche...matzinger_nov_2016/muenchen_2_ethnogenese.pdf

 

[hrvat22]

Illyrians were always in Central Italy Rome I think the only pure illyrians are North Central Italians.

The Illyrians (Ancient Greek: Ἰλλυριοί, Illyrioi; Latin: Illyrii or Illyri) were a group of Indo-European tribes in antiquity, who inhabited part of the western Balkans.^[1] The territory the Illyrians inhabited came to be known as Illyria to Greek and Roman authors, who identified a territory that corresponds to Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Slovenia, Montenegro, part of Serbia and most of central and northern Albania, between the Adriatic Sea in the west, the Drava river in the north, the Morava river in the east and the mouth of the Aoos river in the south

Where are Illyrians in Italy?

 

[Lenab]

Look, i want to tell you a short story. A scholar of German origin, but a true German, not an internet warrior hidden behind his PC who pretend to be a german, named Robert Elsie, now he is no more among us, gave an interview to an Albanian television years ago where he spoke as the author of the Historical Dictionary of Albania and Kosova. I will try to translate with the help of my faithful friend Google a small but significant part of his interview:

Do you have any idea how much story there is in this country? Do you have any idea of how many authors have write about this country named Albania and these people called Albanians? It's a question without an answer. But i will help you to have an idea.
2018 is proclaimed here in Albania the year of Scanderbeg because it's the 550 anniversary of his death. Among other things, i was reading that the number of the books dedicated to Gjergj Kastrioti Skënderbeu was around 1800. 50 years ago, during the 500 anniversary the number of the books dedicated to HIM was roughly 1000. There are even legends and folkloric creations from Iceland to Filipine.
And you really think that you can impress me by repeating like a broken record the name of these two persons, how you said where their names, Norris and Schwarzenegger? Seriously?

Albanians are mixed in whatever country they are settled in

 

[Lenab]

Where are Illyrians in Italy?

Well it all depends. You could talk about the elite of the Roman generals who were mainly Illyrian or you could talk about it in a racial sense I don't understand why Croats don't claim to be Illyrian? I don't know do you?

 

[Fatherland]

Trust me you are not attractive neither are you male with a female haplogroup. You are creepy and obsessive anyone who says that you are not Illyrian is a Serb or ugly.

I have a Norman wife lmfao.

Males have both yDNA and mtDNA.

Females only mtDNA. Or are you a crossdresser with both y and m?

 

[hrvat22]

Illyrian isn't very closely related to Messapian, so I don't understand your point. The details of this is being addressed in newer, unbiased research. Due to a lack of interest there's no English trasnlation of the paper yet, but you might want to use a translator:

https://www.albanologie.uni-muenche...matzinger_nov_2016/muenchen_2_ethnogenese.pdf

Prove your claims with genetics, and that is it. You have not prove anything with genetics and without that you claims are not proven. f you find any genetic evidence let me know.

 

[Lenab]

Males have both yDNA and mtDNA.

Females only mtDNA. Or are you a crossdresser with both y and m?

I spoke about haplogroups not dna there are female Haplogroup dna all over wikipedia.

You are the one who is ashamed of their heritage you have H dna same as me and other users here. You're ashamed of coming from the Balkans

 

[markod]

Prove your claims with genetics, and that is it. You have not prove anything with genetics and without that you claims are not proven. f you find any genetic evidence let me know.

Prove what? This is about language. We do not know what the Illyrians or the Messapians looked like autosomally.

 

[hrvat22]

Well it all depends. You could talk about the elite of the Roman generals who were mainly Illyrian or you could talk about it in a racial sense I don't understand why Croats don't claim to be Illyrian? I don't know do you?

We can not all be Illyrians in Europe, someone has to be and Slav.

 

[Lenab]

This thread was about are South Slavs really Slavic it got derailed ages ago. Yes for me South Slavs are Slavic, you're either Slavic or you aren't

 

[Fatherland]

I spoke about haplogroups not dna there are female Haplogroup dna all over wikipedia.

You are the one who is ashamed of their heritage you have H dna same as me and other users here. You're ashamed of coming from the Balkans

mtDNA H is common allover Europe, it's nothing special.

The more brow-raising question is why you have yDNA in your profile, when females have no biological Y-chromosomes?

 

[Lenab]

We can not all be Illyrians in Europe, someone has to be and Slav.

Then keep on topic and define what a Slavic is we should all stick to this subject. For you and other users here what is a Slav? Is it language or physical appearance based? Is it haplogroup, historical or culture based or all of the above?

 

[hrvat22]

Prove what? This is about language. We do not know what the Illyrians or the Messapians looked like autosomally.

I'm talking to you but you do not hear, prove migration from southern Italy to Illyria and vice versa. Language comes with people, if you do not mean to prove it then do not talk about it.

 

[Lenab]

mtDNA H is common allover Europe, it's nothing special.

The more eye-raising question is why you have yDNA in your profile, when females have no biological Y-chromosomes?

It's originally Balkan and the highest in the Balkans because all Whites come from the Balkans before then Western Asia Minor.

All the Nordics Celtics came later.

Haplogroup H is Indo European

 

[LABERIA]

Albanians are mixed in whatever country they are settled in

Find a thread about Albanians and elaborate better what you want to say with this your post.

 

[markod]

I'm talking to you but you do not hear, prove migration from southern Italy to Illyria and vice versa. Language comes with people, if you do not mean to prove it then do not talk about it.

If you don't care about linguistics just don't respond to posts about linguistics perhaps?

 

[Johane Derite]

You are using Matzinger to argue messapic comes from south italy? He clearly syas messapic is a balkanic language. Some balkna ethnos migrating accros the adriatic sea and through Illyrian territory without ever being mentioned? Lol man they are illyrians.

This quote is a bit outdated but it points to Dardanians:


"Again, the Galabri, writes Strabo, are a people of the Dardaniatae, in whose land is an ancient city.’’ "Word for word, Galabri is Calabri.

"Without being identical, the name of the Italian lapyges (which was to all intents and purposes another name for Calabri) is closely akin to lapodes ; so that, in Italy, we have Calabri called also lapyges, and, in Illyria, lapodes near a population called Galabri."

Pg 34
TRIBES AND RACES
A DESCRIPTIVE ETHNOLOGY OF ASIA, AFRICA & EUROPE
Robert G. Latham