Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

[hrvat22]

Red Croatia is highly disputable as its rests on very little source material.

We know that there were a lot of Catholics in Eastern Hercegovina during a period under the Ottomans, but they either migrated, converted, or died off.

As of Chelebiya, he simply attached the geographic names to various Muslims, for instance Halid from Skradin (Hrvatistan). That did not indicate ethnicity.

I'm telling you about the historical records about Croats in eastern Herzegovina you are saying that they are extinct.

What should I do? Show personal statements for each year to this day?

 

[Guido Anselmi]

They basically all share the same origin.

We don't know that.

We don't know whether Markec from 8th century Zagorje saw his great-great grandfather come from the same tribe as Dmitar from 8th century Biskupija's great-great grandfather.

Markec's ancestor who arrived in Zagorje could have come from an earlier migration from a different tribe.

Dmitar's migrant ancestor could have come with the Croats as a Croat, or with the Avars as a Slav auxillary.

We do know that all these Slavs spoke a similar language at the time as dialectization had yet to happen (and wouldn't form for another 500 to 600 years) yet belonged to VARIOUS DIFFERENT SLAVIC tribes.

We do know that Markec's descendants eventually became Croatianized as the Croatian name and ethnos moved north from Northern and Central Dalmatia and Lika towards present-day Zagreb.

We do know that Dmitar's descendants lived in the heartland of the Medieval Croatian kingdom and most likely fled to Zadar, Sibenik, or the islands when the Turks showed up.

That is all we know for now as the science isn't yet there for the rest.

 

[Guido Anselmi]

I'm telling you about the historical records about Croats in eastern Herzegovina you are saying that they are extinct.

What should I do? Show personal statements for each year to this day?

Outside of the remnants of those in Stolac, Popovo Polje and Ravno they are extinct.

If you want to make sweeping assertions, then back them up.

 

[hrvat22]

Okay, so prove that someone from today is a direct descendant of the White Croats. Please provide an autosomal or Y-DNA test of the person and a family tree that goes back to White Croatia during the Medieval Era.

For now older or ancestor subclades of I2a exist in south Poland and southwestern Ukraine.

From where I2a subclades probably come to Roman Dalmatia, Azerbaijan?

 

[hrvat22]

Outside of the remnants of those in Stolac, Popovo Polje and Ravno they are extinct.

If you want to make sweeping assertions, then back them up.

Stories for little kids. Where it was written in a child's fairy tale?

 

[Guido Anselmi]

For now older or ancestor subclades of I2a exist in south Poland and southwestern Ukraine.

From where I2a subclades probably come to Roman Dalmatia, Azerbaijan?

Show me the DNA results of one single White Croat. Please provide the grave location and the academic paper with the results.

If you're saying that we don't have DNA results for any White Croats then we have no idea what White Croats were like DNA-wise as it would mean there is no evidence available.

 

[hrvat22]

We don't know that.

We don't know whether Markec from 8th century Zagorje saw his great-great grandfather come from the same tribe as Dmitar from 8th century Biskupija's great-great grandfather.

Markec's ancestor who arrived in Zagorje could have come from an earlier migration from a different tribe.

Dmitar's migrant ancestor could have come with the Croats as a Croat, or with the Avars as a Slav auxillary.

We do know that all these Slavs spoke a similar language at the time as dialectization had yet to happen (and wouldn't form for another 500 to 600 years) yet belonged to VARIOUS DIFFERENT SLAVIC tribes.

We do know that Markec's descendants eventually became Croatianized as the Croatian name and ethnos moved north from Northern and Central Dalmatia and Lika towards present-day Zagreb.

We do know that Dmitar's descendants lived in the heartland of the Medieval Croatian kingdom and most likely fled to Zadar, Sibenik, or the islands when the Turks showed up.

That is all we know for now as the science isn't yet there for the rest.

You have genetics and prove that diversity.

 

[Guido Anselmi]

Stories for little kids.

I've seen you at other forums and this is why people mock you. You are one of the types that engages in historical distortion and self-aggrandization. Your desire to force White Croats into discussions about genetics when NOT ONE SINGLE WHITE CROAT DNA RESULTS EXISTS makes you the Croatian version of Jovan Deretic.

I don't care when Serbs engage in outright stupidity since that is easily taken care of by way of history with evidence.

But when my fellow Hrvat engages in stupidity like you do with White Croats it's embarrassing to me (and to others, which is why you get yelled at over at forum.hr).

 

[Guido Anselmi]

And with that I'll go back to lurking since there is not much to be learned here and there is way too much ethnic self-aggrandization, historical anachronisms, etc.

 

[hrvat22]

Show me the DNA results of one single White Croat. Please provide the grave location and the academic paper with the results.

If you're saying that we don't have DNA results for any White Croats then we have no idea what White Croats were like DNA-wise as it would mean there is no evidence available.

On the public DNA database exist ancestry subclades of Croatian I2a subclades, there are from southern Poland.

I2a1b-L621 to become a major Eastern European lineage was probably the Slavic migrations from the 6th to the 9th century CE.

The minority of I2a1b-L621 individuals negative for L147.2 are all found around eastern Poland, Belarus and western Ukraine, suggesting that this is where this lineage survived since the Chalcolithic.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

 

[Wonomyro]

......................

 

[Wonomyro]

To cut it short: there is no historical evidence for a Croatian ethnic consciousness in Slavonia (area incorporating both Medieval and present-day Slavonia) prior to the Pacta Conventa. With the area east of Pozega, not prior to the liberation from the Turks. ...unless you can show otherwise. And no, saying "Slovinci" means "Hrvati" isn't an argument. They had yet to be incorporated into the Croatian corpus. This was a process that took time, a process known as 'ethnogenesis'. This is what I mean by self-aggrandization. Leaping to "Slovinci means Hrvati" simply isn't correct.

Of course that "Slovinci" does not mean Hrvati. Slovinci literary means "people from the province of Slovin". (That's grammar). That is not the ethnicity. The ethnicity is observable from their language. What language did they speak? Hungarian?... I don't think so.

 

[Wonomyro]

Very interesting. Maybe more than one factor influenced in the gradual accumulation of that light blue, arguably Northwest European component. Reading the excerpts you provided, I was particularly curious about theee things:

1) how much time Croats and their ancestors would have lived in Czechia since they came from their probably more eastern homeland, and if it was for a time long enough to allow some degree of admixture with Germanic and Celto-Germanic people to their west;

2) what on earth happened to the Avars who were apparently still numerous and influential in Croatia and other pars of the Balkans as late as the 10th century, and what their genetic marker (autosomally and in parental markers) must have been, and whether it is still identifiable in the region;

3) and who those Turks that Belocroats are told to have intermarried and had good relations with were in a region as northern as Czechia, and I am maybe wrongfully speculating if by "Turks" they meant the newly arrived Magyar conquerors and their possible Turkic allies.

I’ll try

1. … how much time Croats and their ancestors would have lived in Czechia since they came from their probably more eastern homeland, and if it was for a time long enough to allow some degree of admixture with Germanic and Celto-Germanic people to their west;

IMO when the migration of Prague Culture stared to move westwards was the beginning of the process. The process finished after the fall of Avar Khaganate by the end of 8^th and beginning of 9^th century.

2. what on earth happened to the Avars who were apparently still numerous and influential in Croatia and other pars of the Balkans as late as the 10th century, and what their genetic marker (autosomally and in parental markers) must have been, and whether it is still identifiable in the region;

These “Avars” were very likely Avaro-Slavs. They looked like Avars (due to their customs) but genetically they seem to be mostly of Slavic origin. They continue to live in Panonnia. Franks settled some Avars near Raba river in Transdanubia. I believe that Avaro-Slavs latter became Hungarians. Avars mentioned in DAI, "who still live in Croatia" are probably the same Avars from Panonnia. (Constantin's "Dalmatia" seems to include Transdanubia accordning to his own description).

3) and who those Turks that Belocroats are told to have intermarried and had good relations with were in a region as northern as Czechia, and I am maybe wrongfully speculating if by "Turks" they meant the newly arrived Magyar conquerors and their possible Turkic allies.

Yes, “Turks” were newly arrived Magyars. They intermarried with Belocroats in the times when the former still lived in upper Tisa region.

 

[Wonomyro]

We don't know that.

We don't know whether Markec from 8th century Zagorje saw his great-great grandfather come from the same tribe as Dmitar from 8th century Biskupija's great-great grandfather.

Markec's ancestor who arrived in Zagorje could have come from an earlier migration from a different tribe.

Dmitar's migrant ancestor could have come with the Croats as a Croat, or with the Avars as a Slav auxillary.

We do know that all these Slavs spoke a similar language at the time as dialectization had yet to happen (and wouldn't form for another 500 to 600 years) yet belonged to VARIOUS DIFFERENT SLAVIC tribes.

We do know that Markec's descendants eventually became Croatianized as the Croatian name and ethnos moved north from Northern and Central Dalmatia and Lika towards present-day Zagreb.

We do know that Dmitar's descendants lived in the heartland of the Medieval Croatian kingdom and most likely fled to Zadar, Sibenik, or the islands when the Turks showed up.

That is all we know for now as the science isn't yet there for the rest.

Actually you are inventing new ethnicity which never existed in reality. No different language nor culture existed north of Gvozd mountain comparing to the south of Gvozd. The culture and ethnicity changes only north of Drava river where Hungarians begin.

We do know that all these Slavs spoke a similar language at the time as dialectization had yet to happen (and wouldn't form for another 500 to 600 years) yet belonged to VARIOUS DIFFERENT SLAVIC tribes.

Tribe is not an ethnicity! Ethnicity is about culture and language. Archeology does not see differences between two Croatian regions. Linguistics doesn't see different languages there in 9^th century.

Historical sources?

De Administrando Imperio; Chapter 30; Story of the Province of Dalmatia, 10^th century:
.

For a number of years the Croats of Dalmatia also were subject to the Franks, as they had formerly been in their own country; but the Franks treated when with such brutality that they used to murder Croat infants at the breast and cast them to the dogs. The Croats, unable to endure such treatment from the Franks, revolted from them, and slew those of them whom they had for princes. On this, a large army from Francia marched against them, and after they had fought one another for seven years, at last the Croats managed to prevail and destroyed all the Franks with their leader who was called Kotzilis.
​

Historians identify Kotzilis as Frankish Duke of Friuli Cadolach (Cadalaus):
.

Cadolah (or Cadalaus) (also Cadolach, Chadalhoh or Chadolah) (died 819) was the Duke of Friuli from 817 to his death. (...) By then he had been put in charge of Dalmatia, where he was the local ruler at the time when an embassy from Constantinople passed through on their way to the court of Louis the Pious (816). Sometimes after that, probably in 817, he was created Duke of Friuli. Einhard calls him Cadolaum comitem et marcæ Foroiuliensis præfectum ("Cadolah, count and prefect of the Friulian march") in 818. Einhard later calls him dux Foroiuliensis when recording his death after returning from a campaign against Ljudevit Posavski in 819.
​

http://dbpedia.org/page/Cadolah_of_Friuli

I assume that you know of which part of Croatia Ljudevit Posavski was the local ruler.

 

[hrvat22]

I've seen you at other forums and this is why people mock you. You are one of the types that engages in historical distortion and self-aggrandization. Your desire to force White Croats into discussions about genetics when NOT ONE SINGLE WHITE CROAT DNA RESULTS EXISTS makes you the Croatian version of Jovan Deretic.

I don't care when Serbs engage in outright stupidity since that is easily taken care of by way of history with evidence.

But when my fellow Hrvat engages in stupidity like you do with White Croats it's embarrassing to me (and to others, which is why you get yelled at over at forum.hr).

Sir, if you do not have historical or genetic evidence for your allegations I am not guilty for that. You have genetic of Serbians, Bosniaks etc, you have history record and prove whatever you want. You do not prove anything.

 

[mihaitzateo]

To summarize my point of view on this thread:
South Slavs, except Croats, are more East Balkanic, than Slavic.
That happens because South Slavs were formed in the current land of SW Ukraine, Hungary.
These South Slavs were formed from mostly Thracian-Goths assimilated population.
Their Pannonian admixture is the proof of this theory.
If you take Gothic admixture, from a genetic point of view is near the Slavs admixture.
In case of the Croats, their Gothic admixture plus Slavic admixture, might be higher than their East Balkans, West Balkans admixture.
As for Pannonia admixture, that is neither Balkanic, neither Slavic, it should be from some North Thracian population, which is not same with the Dacians.

And to tell my opinion about South Yugo Slavs, that are telling they are relating to Russians, they are related very few.
Neither from a genetic point of view neither from a cultural point of view.
Yugo South Slavs are related to the West Slavs and that is obvious from a genetic point of view, as they look .
About Bulgarians, I have not expressed an opinion.
South Yugo Slavs - Macedonians, Montenegrins, Serbians, Bosnians,Croats, Slovenes.

 

[Wonomyro]

I found this post from @JajarBingan very useful because he used the sample of medieval Slav from Bohemia for the comparison to the Balkan native composition (Thracian + Greek). Bohemia is of course Czechia. It is exactly what we need:

Everyone in the Balkans, together with mainland Greeks, are best modeled as 3-way mixtures of this Thracian, late Bronze Age Greeks and the medieval Slav from Bohemia.

I even created a calculator for this, Balkans K4

[TABLE="width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD]Thracian + Greek[/TD]
[TD]Slavic[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[TD]92%[/TD]
[TD]6%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Albanian[/TD]
[TD]87%[/TD]
[TD]13%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bulgarian[/TD]
[TD]70%[/TD]
[TD]30%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Macedonian[/TD]
[TD]65%[/TD]
[TD]35%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Romanian[/TD]
[TD]65%[/TD]
[TD]35%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Serbian[/TD]
[TD]60%[/TD]
[TD]40%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Montenegrin[/TD]
[TD]60%[/TD]
[TD]40%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Moldovan[/TD]
[TD]50%[/TD]
[TD]50%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bosnian[/TD]
[TD]45%[/TD]
[TD]55%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Croatian[/TD]
[TD]35%[/TD]
[TD]65%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Slovenian[/TD]
[TD]30%[/TD]
[TD]70%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Admixture analysis for comparison:

https://www.frontiersin.org/files/A...09-00551-HTML/image_m/fgene-09-00551-g003.jpg

@Ygorcs, this might be interesting for you. It seems that the medieval Slav from Bohemia already had much of the light blue component.

 

[MaxCRO]

How do we know medieval Slav from Bohemia is good representative of proto-Slavic genome ? Bohemia is quite to the west of the earliest Slavic homeland.

 

[Wonomyro]

How do we know medieval Slav from Bohemia is good representative of proto-Slavic genome ? Bohemia is quite to the west of the earliest Slavic homeland.

That's not the point. We've been discussing about where the Croats and Slovenians picked up the light blue component. Medieval Czech is ideal proxy for that analysys because the historical sources point to Bohemia and Poland as the source of the last Croatian migration. You should go back and read my previous conversation with @Ygorcs.

 

[don_joe]

I can't contribute to this latest discussion but I'm following it with great interest. Nice arguments and quotes of sources from all the participants even when opposed in the last 2 or so days.